#beta-ptr-spoilers
hollow dock
terse patrol
(oh wait they killed them all in Before the Storm)
hollow dock
The first comment summarizes pretty well why blizz keeps doing this. Or at least, why we think they keep doing this
Blizzard have gone overboard with giving characters plot armor, the fact fricking belmont couldn't have died is proof of that. Sure I enjoyed questing with him just as much as any other undead player, but he isn't the least bit important and would at least be a notable figure to die. If blizzard wasn't so afraid to kill faction heroes in an expansion about faction war i feel like the writing wouldn't suffer as much. If they do kill a faction hero though they have to kill one from the other faction or else you have cry babies screaming horde/alliance favoritism and then that just leads to good characters dying too early (like alliance leader having to die last expansion leads to blizz having to kill off horde leader). They don't even have the nerve to kill off that stupid gnome leader in next raid instead he just gets frozen and can't be unfrozen....it's like ffs. BFA story wise is going to fail in my opinion unless they actually start taking the faction war seriously and actually give us some consequential deaths. not just deaths of random people you made up just to die. by all means we should have more dead faction heroes now than we did in legion. In my opinion Malfurion should have died by now this expansion, having him maybe witness the ritual and die as a result would be much more interesting of a development for Tyrande, maybe she's stop being so goody goody and actually start killing the undeads with out mercy. But it wont' happen now, Warcraft is going to bank on the same characters for the rest of it's existence, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Arthas comes back some how.
there it is
So why now, even after all that has been stated, do they decide to show that ''Oh sorry, Val'kyr can actually rise Night Elves as undead''? Not only does that speak terribly of their loremasters not keeping tabs with what has been stated continuously in previous expansions, but of the continuity in general and how Blizzard has stopped caring about their world and just add things as ''Rule of cool''.```Oh yea
this is a thing too
zealous basalt
I call hax
hollow dock
@terse patrol before it gets bumped out of oblivion for ya to feast your eyes on
terse patrol
ye
dense plover
Wasn’t that specifically that the worgen are immune to being undead?
remote urchin
Yeah I thought that too
dense plover
I don’t remember it being any race but humans
I’m fairly certain that it’s just the worgen curse makes you immune to being raised as an undead by the valkyr
zealous basalt
Yeah but lorna isnt affected
dense plover
But that doesn’t have anything to do with night elves being raised
Saying “worgens are immune so night elves are too” is not a line of logic
zealous basalt
Well, there isnt anything that says that only titanforged mutations are affected by undead only
Them being vrykul and humans
dense plover
The only thing we know about the limitations of valkyr is they can’t raise worgen normally
zealous basalt
Also
If he meant about the connectivity about worgen and elves
Arent Gilnean worgen you know
Arugal based?
dense plover
Don’t think it matters
Like over and over throughout the northrend story they repeat the “worgen curse makes you immune to being raised easily”
They repeat that in cata with Crowley and shadow fang keep and that shit
Some are willing to take the curse to not be raised by sylvanas
There’s NEVER been any implication that the valkyr can’t normally raise elves into i death
Unseats
Undeath
remote urchin
Yeah that is honestly majorly flawed logic on that person's part, saying that 'night elves can't be risen into undead'
dense plover
Now the plot armor stuff I get
remote urchin
I think it was a random assumption people took for fact
dense plover
Hopefully we see this undead asshole getting tortured
hollow dock
worgen weren't immune to undeath @dense plover The moon ritual they did is what caused that. T'was a retcon in cata with Arugal and Worgen DKs.
remote urchin
Like "All San'layn are dead" after wrath which was never confirmed
Only LK could raise worgen though
dense plover
^
remote urchin
He was powerful enough, otherwise I thought they were immune
hollow dock
After wrath all that was confirmed was that San'layn high command was wiped out.
There was no leadership for them until now.
remote urchin
There's been 2 missing blood princes since wrath :P
Atherann and Theraldis
Yet people still made the silly assumption
Anyway that's not the point, the point is people make assumptions and take them for fact all the time
I do agree the plot armor thing is a huge issue though
dense plover
Again
hollow dock
no mention of those 2 anywhere
dense plover
We can hope that the undead commander gets captured and tortured
Or they change it to him being killed
remote urchin
They show up only once in the Grizzly hills questline lol
hollow dock
https://wow.gamepedia.com/San'layn#Appearance as seen here
dense plover
We also haven’t gotten a new build since the majority of the complaints
So they have a chance to fix it
We are still very much not ready for patch launch
hollow dock
Oh ok found them
remote urchin
AKA they were never killed. The entire point of me saying that was the whole 'x has gone extinct' factor everyone clings to
Which isn't even the case with black dragons
hollow dock
I never really said they were extinct. Though other people saying that yes are incorrect in that matter
remote urchin
Yeah I know, that was my point haha
I don't know much about the Darkshore questline other than the fact that people are really mad about it
And that I guess Nathanos won despite there being that ritual
hollow dock
I mean you can just read Ian Bates article on the issue.
I keep linking it but no one wants to read it
¯_(ツ)_/¯
dense plover
I wouldn’t say the horde wins
hollow dock
They accomplished all their goals and lose 1 val'kyr in the process.
How isn't that a win?
dense plover
And the alliance get tyrande and other night warriors and wipe out a huge horde platoon
hollow dock
oh no such a horror. they'll have to oh ya know.
raise more forsaken.
oh wait. they did
hollow dock
You know that's arbitrary to say and use
dense plover
No, because you literally see them after
hollow dock
OK so there are only what
dense plover
Being trained by delaryn
hollow dock
OK so there's like 20 void elves
zealous basalt
I'd say there are more
dense plover
I don’t think the horde raised an army of undead elves
zealous basalt
In the far areas you see more doing the rift things
hollow dock
They don't have to
dense plover
There’s no implication of that
dense plover
It’s implied they raised a small elite force
hollow dock
Orcs, tauren, goblins,
there is a MASSIVE amount of dead in Darkshore
there is no shortage of troops for them to raise
dense plover
Those don’t get raised
hollow dock
their losses are negligible
dense plover
She would piss off those horde races
dense plover
It kind of did
hollow dock
Show me where
dense plover
Did you watch the horde cutscene
remote urchin
I wish we'd see prerecessions of that by now
hollow dock
Baine doesn't do anything
remote urchin
Seems like everyone is just going with it other than Baine snorting and stomping off after doing nothing
dense plover
And she didn’t raise them as full forsaken
She raised them as skeletal minions
It’s not the same thing
hollow dock
Oh my god.
remote urchin
I'd expect at least LTT and Liadrin to say something but I'm disappointed
hollow dock
Peach. She can make forsaken out of anyone. She still h as 3 prime valkyr.
remote urchin
She'd know by now lol
dense plover
And that’s all she has done
remote urchin
It's common bloody knowledge
The tree burning and what happened at Lorderon, tons were there to see it
And yet everyone just went along with it
hollow dock
Her losses are honestly only the Val'kyr.
remote urchin
And continues to go along with it
hollow dock
In comparison to all their goals being met
that is a net positive win
Where-as the alliance who supposedly are the winners
failed in almost all of their goals
remote urchin
Same with Thalyserra and such, it doesn't seem like all of those characters would just be ok with this
hollow dock
and are in a net negative
dense plover
And horde is about to have their capital besieged in a raid
remote urchin
Yeah I'm a big hordie and have to say Allies have been getting the short end of the stick a lot
hollow dock
Dazar isn't being sieged
it's being assulted
it was changed to Battle.
It's a quick in and out
while the alliance STILL loses more than it gains
we hit the fleet and take out rastakhan
remote urchin
We lose one new character (which does suck yeah) but not one that's really extremely important, because Talanji is just going to take the place
hollow dock
and lose a lot of our named generals in the process
dense plover
What named generals?
hollow dock
even a core racial leader
dense plover
Mekatorque?
hollow dock
Tess for one.
dense plover
He isn’t dead
dense plover
Yes but he is still alive
And it might lead into mechagnome stuff
Especially considering the missing kul tiran gnomes
remote urchin
Or junkers yeah, some say it could be customization
hollow dock
Oh not this crap again
dense plover
What about Tess?
remote urchin
Wha
hollow dock
She dies
dense plover
Wha?
hollow dock
She does not get out alive
tulip sun
No
dense plover
Link?
hollow dock
the dialogue states Tess was not as lucky as Mekkatorque was
tulip sun
Not tess
hollow dock
We went over this Peach.
Grand Admiral and Mekkatorque make their stand, only Mekkatorque got out
dense plover
Tess isn’t grand admiral
hollow dock
Yes she is
dense plover
Tess greymane?
hollow dock
We end up losing our military leaders and you lost a king who was slated to die anyways
She's Grand Admiral of the Grand Army of the Alliance.
So no, she's not SI7
dense plover
What is anduins job then?
hollow dock
Being High King of the Alliance.
dense plover
I thought the king was top dog of the army
hollow dock
An ADMIRAL does not oversee the ARMY
dense plover
Has Jes done anything in BfA?
hollow dock
She's driving us around in our boats
have you just not done the alliance side of BFA?
hollow dock
She speaks to us going to and from Zuldazar and the other areas.
We lose a grand admiral. You lose a dead king
dense plover
Really? You care about her? She is equivalent to whoever the fuck is driving the boat for horde
zealous basalt
...
What the fuck peach
She is second in command officially besides the King
Like
hollow dock
She's presumed leader of the alliances navy and gives updates to the king on where his ships are. I imagine if the writers actually cared to write for the alliance like they do the horde, she'd have been working directly under Daelin and be much like him in her management of the navy.
dense plover
Do we know who is on the loa council?
hollow dock
Avatars of theloa
zealous basalt
She was the one that briefed us on MoP
hollow dock
thats' it.
dense plover
I thought the avatars were the encounter
hollow dock
they are
hollow dock
Don't knowmuch about that, but as we kill the avatars
you've still lost not much by comparison.
dense plover
We don’t know though
hollow dock
They aren't equal.
dense plover
The encounter journal has no info really
hollow dock
Face that reality already
hollow dock
Considering the avatar's of the Amani trolls were back, I imagine it'll be much of the same for the Dazar Loa avatars
dense plover
The avatars of the Amani at the docks?
jovial skiff
Wait our war campaign admiral fucking DIES???
That's it! That's it I've had enough! This time blizzard has gone too far with their horde bias!
hollow dock
Not at the docks.
the amani have a WQ associated with them where we fight and kill their avatars.
dense plover
Yeah
At the side area
Above the bazaar
There’s still 4 trolls there
And we kill the actual trolls
hollow dock
Like I said. Losing the avatars means nothing.
dense plover
So we don’t know who is actually on the council
hollow dock
and it is the avatars you guys lose..
dense plover
dude
The world quest you mentioned
Involves killing the trolls who have taken on their avatars form
So assuming it works the same way, those are real npcs
dense plover
I wouldn’t be surprised if the two trolls involved in the zuldazar questline with paku and the raptor are on the council
And die
terse patrol
Cant have Belmont die tho
dense plover
Maybe the lady troll we save in voldun is the avatar of the thunder lizard loa
I can’t remember the names of anything today
hollow dock
yes and the avatars can be replaced by anyone
dense plover
The avatars are people
zealous basalt
Jes dies
dense plover
They aren’t just energy
zealous basalt
They cant kill undead
hollow dock
and are still expendable and replaceable
dense plover
Killing the avatar kills those trolls
zealous basalt
It's getting to stupid
sullen dagger
Alliance is getting spanked as usual and losing because plot armor
hollow dock
as seen with the Amani
sullen dagger
Nothing new under the sun
terse patrol
kill jes-tereth, but its ok because the horde loses brand new characters
zealous basalt
do alliance really cares for her
dense plover
So you are arguing that the zandalari who are the patron of their loa and members of the council are worth less than 1 human?
zealous basalt
We do
dense plover
6 zandalari are worth less than 1 human by your logic
zealous basalt
Again, they can be replaced
dense plover
So can a fucking admiral
You just promote the next person in line
It’s the same fucking shit
hollow dock
They are worth less because the Loa Avatars aren't actually fuckign lost
dense plover
WE DONT KNOW THAT
zealous basalt
Yet you forget that our "fucking" almiral has been with us for 14 fucking years
hollow dock
Where as YOU CAN'T HAVE ANOTHER JES
THE AMANI PROVE THIS PEACH
YOU CAN HAVE A SECOND AVATAR OF A LOA
YOU DON'T COMPREHEND THIS
zealous basalt
Or he doesnt want to
dense plover
ITS NOT THE AVATAR THAT MATTERS DES
sullen dagger
Or just memeing
hollow dock
YOU'RE LOSING THE AVATARS, THAT'S THE END LINE OF IT
dense plover
ITS THE NPCS SUMMONING THE AVATAR
hollow dock
REPLACABLE AVATARS
dense plover
Those npcs are names and have been part of the story
terse patrol
dat peach bias 🍑 
hollow dock
So have JES
dense plover
And we are likely going to lose them
sullen dagger
There's a distinction the avatars are unnamed npc
dense plover
And you can’t get another rakira
jovial skiff
She drives me to voldun whenever I want and she's my friend dammit!
zealous basalt
She was there in MoP at the beggining
dense plover
rakira is likely the avatar of the thunder lizard loa
hollow dock
and Belmont is more important than her according to the writers.
zealous basalt
But she doesnt have someone making her a Mary sue like Nathanos, the boy toy
hollow dock
Nah he's not a mary sue
dense plover
We’ve been over this
jovial skiff
I like how the writer dearly wishes he could be nathanos
dense plover
He’s literally the opposite
jovial skiff
It's sad and hilarious
dense plover
The nathanos hate is unnecessary
terse patrol
She’s literally Daelin Proudmoores replacement
hollow dock
but no I agree, Nathanos isn't a mary sue.
terse patrol
She heads the Alliance navy.
dense plover
Nathanos is a ridiculously strong character
hollow dock
really wish we got more than Jaina to be strong alliance characters.
dense plover
He is one of if not the only human to be a member of the elves rangers
jovial skiff
I don't really like the guy, but he's just kind of a dick you know
Also too many people cry about wishing their undead could look like him
Naming himself blightcaller is kinda cringe
Actually who named him that?
hollow dock
most undead names that are all edgy are cringe
dense plover
In life nathanos was possibly the most skilled human archer in history
dense plover
And I thought sylvanas gave him that title
hollow dock
but he was also fuckin Sylvanas.
so there is some bias in getting him into the ranger corp
zealous basalt
He is a ranger because Sylvanas did the impossible to get him there
terse patrol
I guess Sky Admiral Rogers will take Tes-Tereth’s place.
hollow dock
she didn't do the impossible.
zealous basalt
Ni please
terse patrol
Jes-Tereth*
hollow dock
she just fucked him and told the prince to fuck off he's a ranger now
dense plover
Like, is nathanos maybe too prevalent? Sure
zealous basalt
Jes has more charisma than Rogers
hollow dock
but yea. the story is heavily shifted to be horde focused and biased, even though the writers "swear" its not.
sullen dagger
He's under the heel of sylvannas and don't really question any of her orders
dense plover
Why would he?
hollow dock
he is a bit of a kiss ass
terse patrol
The plot is shifted to focus on the struggle of the Horde under the reign of Sylvanas, lost honor, Saurfang, etc.
hollow dock
that nose of his is a tad brown
dense plover
What reason does he have to question his mentor and lover?
terse patrol
Feels like the Alliance is the plot device.
sullen dagger
And that's not obedience it's plain subservient attitude
hollow dock
Well for one, Before the Storm shows him to be a tad different. but everywhere else shows he's a bit more zealous.
sullen dagger
And that honestly don't fit me on the role of a powerful cuasi leader of part of the horde
zealous basalt
Seems like the writters of a book and the ingame writters cant come to agree
sullen dagger
I think there's none better than him to question sylvannas motives
Since he's the closest thing she has to a friend
zealous basalt
Not even that
hollow dock
He's the most trusted person Sylvanas has.
and that's saying soemthing
she doesn't trust the PCs who are nothing but loyal to the horde
sullen dagger
And that's what companions do, they keep you level-headed
sullen dagger
Those are my reasons of seeing him shallow
Woah this is the calm after the storm eh?
jovial skiff
They better at least replace he's with somebody cool
Maybe somebody unconventional
Tbh I'm betting it'll just be some random kul tiran
A good symbol of our alliance with them and all of that
terse patrol
It’ll likely be Sky Admiral Rogers.
zealous basalt
No
She was in MoP
And Legion
She was the second almiral of the Skyfire
Before her and Genn's decision destroyed it
terse patrol
Nobody is disputing that
jovial skiff
Give us more npcs with class/race combos we don't see
Like uhh
Idk worgen pally or something weird
meager warren
Wait, she doesn't trust the PC? Wat
jovial skiff
Hey lore wise is any race immune to being worgen?
Could dark iron worgen exist?
terse patrol
We assume other race worgen can exist but
zealous basalt
We dont want to see it
meager warren
Oh great, more reason for me to dislike her
hollow dock
technically speaking, no race is immune to it @jovial skiff
but it wouldn't matter
worgen look the same
sullen dagger
Prohibited transformation druid elves
hollow dock
no matter what. worgen all look the same. Elf, human.
meager warren
Why?
hollow dock
She doesn't know that Mak.
night swift
The only thing that would be different is the voice maybe
zealous basalt
Yeah , she doesnt
hollow dock
But she never trusted us. Hell, she doesn't trust the other leaders.
sullen dagger
^
night swift
Since pc worgen have the gilnean accents
hollow dock
Why do you think she sends nathanos with us whenever we're sent out?
zealous basalt
We just straight disobey orders
meager warren
How do we break her trust
hollow dock
We kill her dark ranger
meager warren
Oof
sullen dagger
Saurfang
hollow dock
We help saurfang when her orders to the dark rangers are to kill Saurfang
jovial skiff
Worgen always look exactly the same once they transform huh? That's a little boring tbh
Even just small changes lore wise could be neat, though I don't expect it in game of course
strange falcon
8.1 alliance mounts datamined https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/419964508447047690/502151617240629248/leaked_alliance_mounts.png
meager warren
Saurfang has more reason to distrust Sylv than she does, him
sullen dagger
I honestly like horses
sullen dagger
Don't really mind another one with kultirans
jovial skiff
The kul tiran horse does actually look really good though
zealous basalt
I dont have enough hi res horses
jovial skiff
I like horses but want more variety instead of
More horses
sullen dagger
The preorder one is pretty good with the lantern and all that
jovial skiff
And they should redo the old horses to match new graphics
meager warren
Where are the saurfang quests?
sullen dagger
8.1
jovial skiff
I like goldenmane a lot
meager warren
Nice
zealous basalt
I dont have it
terse patrol
Anyone got a link to Jes-Tereth dying?
hollow dock
its in the datamined dialogue around Mekkatorque as far as I remember. It was from MMO's datamine post.
terse patrol
fuggg
jovial skiff
So eventually every race will have an allied race variant right? And hopefully they'll also all get heritage armor
Are any original races also going to get new racial mounts? I haven't heard anything about it so I doubt it since they all have vendors selling like 8 mounts or more of their style
Which reminds me I still need to go buy a ton of those
zealous basalt
We dont know
Original races will have heritage armor for themselves and
If they continue with the quality of the dwarf armor
They are going to be aesthetically pleasing for all classes
jovial skiff
I'll give that a google real fast
Because I had initially thought you meant dark irons but then I remembered normal dorfs are getting their own too
hollow dock
there is no true rule on how many allied races will exist and what deems them to be made
jovial skiff
Yeah I know, but I'm hoping we get one for every race
Maybe half this xpac and the other half next time idk
hollow dock
I kinda don't
jovial skiff
Like you said there's no known rule for it, they could give us even more elves
hollow dock
I want more starting zones.
jovial skiff
For existing races?
meager warren
Next allied race is centaur but switched.
The ass-end is human and the head is horse
hollow dock
Like I hope BFA will have its bulk of Allied races
and afterwords
it's like maybe 1 an expac
with new legitimate core races being made
jovial skiff
Oh you mean more fully fledged starting zones for races
jovial skiff
Like they other races all got yeah
Those are cooler than the little allied race things
hollow dock
cuz I dont want allied races to replace that. Doing so would actually kill the RPG part of WoW a bit.
jovial skiff
Where you just start
And grab a quest to go speak with [faction leader] and then go to the rest of the game
I liked the worgen starting zone once
Never want it again tho tbh
But Draeneis was good
meager warren
Why can't all races have as good a starting area as worgen 
hollow dock
Like my personal favorite is the nelf one.
Where you deal with a local issue, and then are sent off into the world having secured home
zealous basalt
Mine is the pandaren one
meager warren
Same
jovial skiff
Yeah the elf start was quick and easy, but not overly short
And you travel around teldrassil a lot
Humans just start next to one little building then leave for the forest
zealous basalt
Humans are the fastest ones
jovial skiff
For my elf I did the right thing after start, and immediately went to secure darkshore too
I've never done orcs
The only time I made an orc was to get to orgrimmar really fast and warn them that a huge amount of alliance players were planning to come raid it
Because when I got to orgrimmar on my ally character I wanted a fight
jovial skiff
all of them?
unkempt moss
all of them
meager warren
all but allied race starter zones
jovial skiff
I would have liked at least some short starter quests for the allied race but I guess they figure the quests to unlock them were enough
Like if allied races started at level 15 and got out into the world at 20
tulip sun
ARs also have the recruitment quest and other build up
Which is kinda filling in for the starting zone
meager warren
Maybe if they started in the default races zone, but with a few added quests first.
Like, as if they're starting their journey in a different place as a foreign exchange student?
sullen dagger
TBOROS APPROVES
zealous basalt
Dont you mean tpaartos?
zealous basalt
Well, unless ze mods allow it, I think that's a...forbidden word
sullen dagger
oh wow
zealous basalt
sullen dagger
people have 6thin skin or what?
that word was created to avoid calling bad names to people with mental disabilities
hollow dock
he censored himself. jesus guys
sullen dagger
zealot much
sullen dagger
well he was kinda shady
hollow dock
He was more than likely autistic though. Children with his speaking and thinking pattern resemble it closely.
meager warren
And maybe a tad too arrogant
rotund sorrel
👀
zealous basalt
I think yeah, he seemed autistic, but her dark version
Oof
He pinged for nothing
hollow dock
Murderous pinged you guys for nothing. He's just being a little shit
meager warren
Bexause omakehell used a bad word
hollow dock
We do. For the most part.
meager warren
That's you being a little herk, des
rotund sorrel
@meager warren watch it.
unkempt moss
murderous had no reason to ping mods
meager warren
Tell them that
unkempt moss
it's okay my very green friend
unkempt moss
recede to your caves
meager warren
I get it
zealous basalt
We didnt were rude this time tho
meager warren
Des seems to use any excuse to treat me badly tho
sullen dagger
i wasnt intentinally using slur
sullen dagger
yeah, no probs
rotund sorrel
ez
rotund sorrel
so drop it. It's handled
zealous basalt
Accident
zealous basalt
Now go back to sleep Onyx, we are good now
rotund sorrel
you guys all have better things to do than stand around and blame each other
zealous basalt
I have a free day
marsh bloom
Presumably.
meager warren
No
meager warren
At least des doesn't
meager warren
Watched
sullen dagger
oh boy here we go
rotund sorrel
y
sullen dagger
unkempt moss
nein
zealous basalt
Oh lord
unkempt moss
👋
rotund sorrel
Great, thanks
zealous basalt
peers from cave Is the Mod bot gone?
sullen dagger
man now i have a mighty need of doing an "spanish inquisition meme" but with mod's images
rotund sorrel
no. I'm watching to make sure you guys actually move onto another topic
unkempt moss
this is ptr right
sullen dagger
yes
sullen dagger
and spoiler territory
sullen dagger
like?
unkempt moss
gross because i've heard lack of interesting content and just throwing away old lore
edgy because ooo dark elf dark forsaken kaboom maybe some more forsaken in a dark zone
sp00ky
sullen dagger
well, the dark elf transormation in warriors of the night is cool as hell
hollow dock
I thought so too
sullen dagger
what i wonder is what are the repercussions
hollow dock
but then the quest actually happened and came out
http://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/the-8-1-darkshore-quests-are-really-bad take a read you both
unkempt moss
i just saw in a link someone posted here that she was just weaker and lost a 1v1 to nathanos
that link
sullen dagger
rsg?
unkempt moss
yes that link i saw it earlier
hollow dock
Read the full thing
it's really amazing how in depth he went on how it's terrible on both sides
sullen dagger
on it
unkempt moss
des i did read it
i red everything
it made me sad and not want to do darkshore warfront
hollow dock
Was more so for Omake.
It's amazing how blizzard thought this meant the horde lost but the alliance won.
unkempt moss
"the time for mercy is over"
oops forgot those forsaken you temporarily froze over there
and didn't kill
sullen dagger
honestly, since the rise of the ex-alliance peeps nathanos did i feel like a lose in my book
i think having a proudmore and the night elf who directed the deffence of darnassus as undead is a big hin of the morale
unkempt moss
that part PROVES that the forsaken are in fact not in control of their own will
because they were loyal to alliance but ooo now they're undead so they full horde
sullen dagger
^
remote urchin
Didn't we see why they're not on alliance though via the Horde campaign questline?
meager warren
'mercy is over'
Proceeds not to kill prisoners
remote urchin
Where the guy's wife and kid was extremely afraid and hated him?
meager warren
I think that was just bad writing
remote urchin
The Nelf ones though doesn't make sense at all, they should definitely not be working for Horde after what they did
meager warren
because his voice is obviously different from others and he was wearing the same clothes
zealous basalt
8.1 horde is just bad biased writting
hollow dock
The issue is Fallyn right
there is no consisetency
to tell if they have free will ornot
It seems like blizz flips and flops
sullen dagger
what a mess
hollow dock
as freshly risen forsaken in cata suffered from a blood haze
and went crazy attacking whatever they could
now it's if they choose it or not, but aren't actually always asked.
As seen with the Proudmoore kid
his voice lines clearly indicates it's not something he asked for. He's confused, afraid and panicing
strange falcon
inb4 activision is planning a takeover in the shadows,and we get them as bfas final boss
remote urchin
Yeah it feels very fishy
Yeah I thought they built it up to be like it was a choice to keep your will and come back, right
hollow dock
It feels thrusted upon him.
jovial skiff
In nier automata the publisher was the final "boss"
remote urchin
But why are night elves acting like this? Sylv burned their tree down
Sure they might be mad at Tyrande but the opposite solution is to join the Horde :P
hollow dock
"Oh their goddess forsook them"
yet.
the goddess is right there.
Causing an eclipse
remote urchin
Unless there's nothing-- well wait really?
remote urchin
That's silly because who cares
Like their friends and family got burned alive
Due to the horde
Goddess forsaking them or not
hollow dock
but they gotta join the horde and sully their memories
kinda like the blood elves
The horde slaughtered thousands of high elves, their brothers and sisters, during the second war.
jovial skiff
Inb4 Elune is an old evil god naaru titan
hollow dock
and they went and joined those same murderers.
remote urchin
The only reason I could see this working is if there's something we don't know right now going on
zealous basalt
Well
remote urchin
Like some twist or whatever
zealous basalt
Des
remote urchin
But they said basically that the tree would be different, right
That it'd be a big surprise
zealous basalt
Eclipse happens in Azeroth every century or two
remote urchin
...But it wasn't
hollow dock
it wasn't a surprise to anyone with a brain. Sylvanas burned it down because Sylvanas is evil.
remote urchin
IT was the most obvious course of action and certainly we have yet to see the 'good side' of the horde
zealous basalt
But not these kind of eclipses
hollow dock
they just lied to everyone on the horde to keep it 'fresh'
zealous basalt
They lied with the morally gray thing
hollow dock
Though I'll admit. I entertained the idea of it not being hte horde.
remote urchin
I feel kinda like it's a let down, I'm a hordie and I like the idea of it being a band of outcasts working to survive
Not... horrible things
Just to be evil
zealous basalt
Horde is inherently evil sadly
hollow dock
Cause genocide and wage war.
remote urchin
I disagree, that was the old horde, am talking about Thrall's horde
hollow dock
No no. that's the same horde.
zealous basalt
Which had the same orcs
hollow dock
Thrall's horde is still made up of those orcs that slaughtered the humans.
Slaughtered the elves.
Slaughtered the Draenei.
remote urchin
Right not not every single person on that faction has that same mindset to just mindlessly slaughter
jovial skiff
Yes they do
zealous basalt
But the horde is majority orcs
hollow dock
That is the majority of the horde though. See the undead and Orcs.
remote urchin
It's a cliche narrative.
zealous basalt
And forsaken now
hollow dock
Heck we see that to great effect in Cataclysm.
unkempt moss
horde is actually majority elves
jovial skiff
Lol
unkempt moss
because people are too normie to not look human
zealous basalt
In game
hollow dock
Player pop=/=Lore pop.
unkempt moss
in a fantasy game
jovial skiff
Maybe playerbase it is
hollow dock
In which again, the horde was made to wage war and do horrible things. Thrall tried to change this, but it's nature to the horde.
and trying to change nature never works.
tranquil steeple
hard to look human as horde when the closest thing to actual human is a rotting corpse, tbh
zealous basalt
The only way to change the horde
remote urchin
I'm gonna disagree but end it there to be honest x.x
zealous basalt
Is to comit a mass genocide of orcs and undead
hollow dock
How would you disagree on the horde being made to wage war? lol
remote urchin
That makes it just as bad in every case?
hollow dock
That's very much the reason it was made. Thrall tried to change it, but even then.
remote urchin
I'm assuming you guys main alliance :P
hollow dock
See Grommash.
hollow dock
Grommash Hellscream, under orders from Thrall because this was WC3, drank demons blood and waged war with the night elves.
zealous basalt
We went through it already
remote urchin
My name is Des.
hollow dock
So is my name.
terse patrol
I mained Horde when they were Thralls Horde.
hollow dock
They're Desiree, I'm Desara.
remote urchin
Correct
remote urchin
Yeah same nickname
hollow dock
Now, for the horde.
zealous basalt
To Fix the Horde
hollow dock
Even when under thrall, still waged war. Killed a demi-god
remote urchin
I'll just say I don't agree with the fact that night elves would join, under free will.
hollow dock
that's under thrall.
zealous basalt
Would be just leaving the pacifist races in them
zealous basalt
Which would be
hollow dock
In any other story, the horde would have been shattered apart by now.
remote urchin
I don't think every single orc is evil though
zealous basalt
Get rid of orcs
zealous basalt
And get rid of forsaken
hollow dock
That is the Horde's mentality.
zealous basalt
Sylvanas once said
remote urchin
What about the forsaken that want to return to their families and can't?
hollow dock
Hell, Saurfang shows that.
zealous basalt
That the Horde and Alliance have a story of hate that go through their veins, deep into their cores
hollow dock
They are the small percentage. That's simple fact.
zealous basalt
I say
hollow dock
They exist, I won't deny that.
zealous basalt
That she forgot to said that most of the hate, was done by the Horde
hollow dock
but the Horde was made for war. It was made for what Sylvanas is doing.
Hell, Saurfang in pre-patch further confirms this sort of mentality.
remote urchin
I've seen quite a few players on Horde not happy with the story direction currently, including myself
hollow dock
and Saurfang is seen as the honorable one.
and that's great
that means you still got some form of a moral compass.
zealous basalt
And then they shit on it
remote urchin
I don't like Saurfang though
zealous basalt
Blizzard trying to force their storylines on a PC that has gone through all the missions of Sylvanas
Without a doubt
terse patrol
Its funny how flip-floppy Hordies are though
hollow dock
But in all honesty, even under Thrall's horde.
zealous basalt
Simply goes like 'Syl bad, Saur good'
terse patrol
They hate on him in War of Thorns, scream his praises in Old Soldier, then scream some more in 8.1 about him being a traitor.
remote urchin
I do bash heads harcore with the "true horde" people lol
I didn't like him at all
Not even in Old soldier
hollow dock
At least Fallyn isn't one of those people.
remote urchin
I wish Saurfang stood up to Sylvanas right there rather than running and staying in prison, idk. I feel like he could have reduced a lot of the damage.
I would respect him a lot more if he did
zealous basalt
You have to read A good war
remote urchin
I did
zealous basalt
Like, he calls Sylvanas' horde not honorable
hollow dock
but yea. the horde is ruled by power. It'll constantly eat itself from the inside and when the alliance come untied and ready for a fight, they fall over.
zealous basalt
But he is an hypocrite
zealous basalt
He made the plans for the war
remote urchin
Yeah, exactly, he's a hypocrite.
hollow dock
I do like how we can apply the Nuremberg defense to the horde soldiers though.
remote urchin
Well, at least I like the zone stories ><
zealous basalt
He didnt care on killing soldiers or homes
terse patrol
“I was just following orders lmao”
remote urchin
At least I have RP to say my toons don't support Sylv :P
hollow dock
"They were just following orders of bad warchiefs. when they follow the orders of the good warchiefs, they're good people."
zealous basalt
He suddenly went 'oh noes'
remote urchin
Yeah, exactly
hollow dock
that defense is bs btw
zealous basalt
That if
They have invaded the tree
Saurfang would have been gladly to kill anything there
hollow dock
she'd be executing the civilians
regardless
Nah
To be honest makore
I have to disagree with you
Horde questing for Astranaar showed he wasnt about killing Civilians
zealous basalt
Fuck
hollow dock
he has you tie them up
zealous basalt
I forgot that part
hollow dock
but you can just kill em
terse patrol
The Forsaken come in behind Saurfang and kill the civilians
remote urchin
No DK on Alliance side then :P
hollow dock
That's fine for me.
terse patrol
They should see the light of Calia. 
remote urchin
Yiuck
hollow dock
They should see the light of the BURNING LEGION AND OUR FEL FIRE
sullen dagger
oh goid
zealous basalt
But can we genocide Forsaken?
sullen dagger
this is wonderful
remote urchin
Kill the evil ones
hollow dock
?
sullen dagger
sullen dagger
WUNDERBAR
remote urchin
Tbh I wish the emphasis on the whole faction war would stop already but that won't happen
zealous basalt
NERF THEM ALL
remote urchin
Especially not now
zealous basalt
Its just
Hate
Warcraft's story is based on hate
If we wanted a true peace we should have to wait for new generations and Pray that they forget about the hate
sullen dagger
if war stops the hordew will fall apart like real quick
hollow dock
it wouldn't last.
zealous basalt
There still would skirmishes
hollow dock
yea. as omake said
the horde can only exist because of war.
Otherwise
there's no reason for the majority of it to be there.
sullen dagger
they dont have any real reason to be together except because of the war
remote urchin
They coulda been like scryers and aldor
hollow dock
The blood elves joined out of survival and can't leave out of horde reprocussions
if the war stops
with no horde presence on EK
they can just go alliance
zealous basalt
And Alliance would be disbanded after peace
hollow dock
the Tauren certainly have no reason to be on the horde anymore.
remote urchin
We could work together against those old gods
hollow dock
Certainly not with genocidal leaders leading it
zealous basalt
Like the title, but the friendliness would be there
hollow dock
so they'd likely go completely neutral or just join their allies, the night elves.
the trolls would stick it out with the orcs more than likely. as would the pandaren.
but the Shal'dorei would most likely join the Sin'dorei.
highmountain with the rest of the tauren.
terse patrol
The Blood Elves and Tauren are only Horde today due to mechanics.
terse patrol
Trolls and Orcs would stick together.
Forsaken would do their own thing and be evil.
zealous basalt
She joined to be away from war
hollow dock
and then she immediately jumps into a war
zealous basalt
And suddenly they are up for it
zealous basalt
I hope she dies tbh
terse patrol
“REEEEEEEEEEEE”
zealous basalt
At least with Elissande they werent hypocrites
terse patrol
Yeah I dont get how some people always separate Blizzard from character decisions.
hollow dock
Except that's not true Mak
hollow dock
literally Malfurion and Tyrande for example, Nozdormu and Alexstrasza, more examples.
Darius Crowley.
zealous basalt
And Ysera?
remote urchin
.>
remote urchin
Shoulda been a raid boss imo
zealous basalt
You know I can flip the same story for you so dont start
zealous basalt
Not that salt
But before I start killing Des over this, I dont see a lot of hope for the rest of BfA in terms of writing
terse patrol
what if people were right
and blizzard is doing cheap expacs between the actual good ones 🤔
zealous basalt
I mean
That would mean the team behind WoD should be fired
And that would also mean
Bc was shit
Like
Classic, WotlK, MoP, Legion
Were made by a good team
While
BC, Cata, WoD and BfA were made by the cheap team
And I hope it's not like that
remote urchin
I liked Cata :( Though I joined in cata so there's that
zealous basalt
It's an if
sullen dagger
bc was a good xpac, imho
zealous basalt
If people were correct about one team doing a good job and another doing a bad job in purpose
remote urchin
Yeah I don't think that's the case
terse patrol
@remote urchin you played as Horde for Cata?
ionic terrace
PTR is down, new build incoming perhaps
stiff vector
its already here
ionic terrace
zealous basalt
Nothing new?
ionic terrace
About 1gb
bit less
like 995mb
Hopefully they fixed the tooltip bug >_>
Realms down 
hollow dock
Also Mak
ionic terrace
uH OH
hollow dock
you never elaborated on your little threats
ionic terrace
I think BE armor is the guard armor
or somethign close
isn't that the guard hat
hollow dock
it isn't. guards dont have hats
meager warren
Little threats? go on
hollow dock
You might be thinking of fan art.
As a lot of fan art gave em eagle crowns, but the in game guards don't wear helms
ionic terrace
zealous basalt
pulls topic about why Nightborne would be Horde, and how racial tensions can lead to detach themselves from a main source
ionic terrace
here's the chest
zealous basalt
That