I mean if anything I don't see sylvannas being killed, if anything
#beta-ptr-spoilers
hollow dock
kill off nathanos
slate ingot
permanently this time
hollow dock
kill off her last valkyr
and bam
She's now in a position where she can't be aggressive
meager warren
Kill off Nathanos and Sylvanas takes her own life because she's lost too many
slate ingot
as it sits now, Nathanos is staging a conflict with the proudmoores for the later patches
with the whole Derek thing
tropic trail
I think, she could loose the warchief-position and go back to being the leader of the forsaken.
But i don't think she will die
slate ingot
I would be surprised to see her remain warchief, and instead see that council that was mentioned rise to power that doesnt like sylvannas
or some sort of forsaken coup
meager warren
but then someone else will get the magnificent idea to make Sylvanas warchief, probably directed by the Old Gods or mischievous Loa
tropic trail
Well, book spoiler
tropic trail
the council get's killed by her.
tulip sun
They ded
slate ingot
meh i dont read the books
meager warren
BBOOOOOIIIII
tropic trail
can you spoiler-tag things in discord?
slate ingot
no
meager warren
that orc even has a beard kek
slate ingot
its just bad discord formatting you can line things cant spoiler tag
pallid crescent
hollow dock
Absolutely. I love it.
tulip sun
Huh
This desolate council actually has a lot more members then I thought
i thought it'd be a small few person council leading
This is very neat
The two are giving chances and asking forsaken and humans who have relatives on each side if they'd like to meet.
hollow dock
shame theyre wiped out.
tropic trail
Calia is not part of the council though.
uncut jetty
https://bfa.wowhead.com/quest=51191/save-them-all able to be completed?
tropic trail
And there chief was about to refuse her, too. Tragix misunderstanding.
tulip sun
Sylvanas only knows that Calia is there beside the leader of the Council.
and others were running away
That does not look good tbh.
tropic trail
Yeah.
opal ember
Number 15
tropic trail
I'm not on the track of saying Sylvannas is evil(tm) or even "out of control" as some claim.
tulip sun
She honestly is kinda justified in what she did. To those not in the meeting, it seemed like they were betraying her.
tropic trail
The main problem is that she is in the wrong genre for her type of gray, tbh.
hollow dock
She lets the council exist prior to calia
knowing their intentions
so no
I dont subscribe to that
sharp bluff
The sister of the man who broke her mind and body appears and tries to take the people she saved from Arthas, Nam flashback
tropic trail
I mean, Sylvannas would be a perfectly servable "grey" character in a setting where all other political leaders are just as "realpolitik"-style as her and her assumptions about them would be correct some of the time. Like a Song-of-Ice-and-Fire-style-world, where this logic applies. But she is supposed to be grey against a world where most leaders are just very, very white. - The problem with the horde is that they act like something I would expect (and accept) as right in a setting that is more on the cynical side of things. Which WoW (as heroic fantasy) just is not.
tulip sun
What calia did and the ones that ran away, jsut gave her a solid and reasonable reason for her to kill them all
No one will question it in the horde
sharp bluff
They made her laugh while killing them though like a stupid mustache twirling villain
It is horrible
tulip sun
Hm...and I understand why she killed the ones running back to the wall. They stayed out there until she started attacking. They could just be running back because they don't wanna die, they could easily later betray her like others have done in the past.
tropic trail
Well, the biggest sign for her being "in control" imho is that she seems to have given evry clear orders to not harm a single member of the alliance
tulip sun
I mean, she sticks with her deal.
tropic trail
If she was in flashback-bring-the-pain-mde, I don't see her doing that
sharp bluff
SoO 2.0
tulip sun
No, not at all lol
sharp bluff
Yep
It is written so the only answer is she is evil
But Genn gets that redemption chapter
The only potential evil alliance leader
tropic trail
I disagree. She is written as cruel, but justified (badly so, but I think the intention is there)
tulip sun
She is totally in character and is justified. It is no SoO, 2.0. Sorry to break your dreams
sharp bluff
No SoO in my dreams Kha
hollow dock
yea Kham.
sharp bluff
I am fine with her stepping down
hollow dock
She perfectly planned that one out. She's slaughtered dissidents and Calia was killed in the crossfire.
By her plot arrow that somehow one shot her
but didn't down genn
meager warren
wdym she's written as justified
hollow dock
Plot arrows are weird.
sharp bluff
Indeed
hollow dock
Essentially Arson
She let the council go out andmeet with Calia
possibly to try and ambush the alliance, but saw a better opprotunity when it was Calia
She kills off the council that opposed her
Kills the last rightful heir to the throne
and 'spares' the alliance
meager warren
o
hollow dock
seen as a hero to the horde
tropic trail
that would imply she knew beforehand, Calia would be there (can't plan to kill her, if you don't know about her)
And she clearly wasn't aware
tulip sun
It is justified because they were seen at defecting to the alliance.
hollow dock
She didn't know about Calia
sharp bluff
It was?
sharp bluff
How did she know from netherlight though?
terse patrol
Don’t worry.
hollow dock
To kill Calia, the last rightful heir to lordaeron's land.
terse patrol
Calia is now a undead waifu.
hollow dock
and the dissidents
terse patrol
So Sylvanas will be replaced.
hollow dock
that oppose her. in one fell swoop
terse patrol
The Horde won’t be happy though when they learn the truth of the situation.
tropic trail
What is the truth? Some of her subjects decided to break the rules of the meeting and she decided to see them punished
sharp bluff
Exactly Honk, which is why all I see is SoO 2
tulip sun
Calia was hit straight through the heart
tropic trail
Also, Genn is a worgen (who are stated to be a good bit resistant to undead stuff through their connection to the wild gods), Calia is a simple human
tulip sun
I still love this book so far
tropic trail
I don't love it. But I can life with it.
terse patrol
It’s not outstanding, but no WoW book is.
The lore decisions are ok.
Apparently Jaina is still with Kalecgos
tulip sun
I just like the lore
i don't really know how good of a book it actually is, I can't judge that
My grammar sucks myself
hollow dock
she got back together with kalec
Most likely because she thought she was walkign to her execution
tropic trail
Well, I'm not sure, why they introduced the whole storyline around the council and calia and the peace idea in the first place.
tropic trail
But it's quite okay in it's execution and doesn't break other lore, so it's fine
tulip sun
You guys think that Saa'ra knew that Calia would die? o.O
terse patrol
Calia is replacing Sylvanas
hollow dock
That not everyone is inherently evil. So he extends an olive branch.
terse patrol
That’s why. @tropic trail
tulip sun
and no, Calia is not
terse patrol
Why else would she brought back as some special holy undead?
tropic trail
Naa'ru are quite well versed in prophecies. And they trust in them. They just miss that they can't see half of the picture most of the time
See the whole stuff with M'uru and the blood elves
sharp bluff
Celia would a horrible forsaken leader, “hey remember our prince who killed and raised ya? His sister is in charge now”
hollow dock
I mean
Blood elves. Zep
Blood elves.
"Hey rememebr those orcs that slaughtered, raped and pillaged your people? yea they're your ruler now"
tulip sun
Calia won't lead anything, lol.
I just think she will be important when the shadow vs light stuff happens
hollow dock
"Remember those undead that slaughtered your people? Yea those are your allies now."
terse patrol
"calia won't lead anything."
sharp bluff
True, but I am not an elf guy
hollow dock
"Oh and those Trolls!"
meager warren
And Anduin is right in that people can change.
It's just that they often don't want to
hollow dock
Yup and he notes that to Genn at the end of the book.
He admits "Sylvanas is not willing to change."
tropic trail
I'm with Honk on that one. I mean, thes did Velfes. Holysaken are not beyond them
hollow dock
So both get some character growth. Genn is no longer hungry to kill all forsaken/horde. Anduin knows he must have this war with Sylvanas, even if he doesn't want it.
sharp bluff
Genn redemption arc, bad taste, the only potential alliance leader to be bad
hollow dock
and sylvanas is supposedly back to being a manipulative shadow.
So that's good that she's back to herold character
terse patrol
At the end of BFA, mark my words
tulip sun
I doubt they will do holy forsaken
terse patrol
The Forsaken will split.
sharp bluff
It went so well before when Sylvanis tried to join them before she joined the horde, but ya, probably a split
terse patrol
You don't think the Forsaken might fracture more if they heard about the massacre?
hollow dock
we're told that they dont
Sylvanas get to spin the tale of
"I wiped out dissidents that tried to usurp me."
"Did not strike at the alliance as you might expect."
then bam. Fan fare, cheering and love
tulip sun
^^^
Literally no forsaken left that field alive(except Faol)
They easily say, and knew w
I worded that wrong
They actually were defectors
So that is not exactly a lie or anything
tropic trail
there were plenty to leave alive.
tulip sun
True, but as she said
tropic trail
All of the Dark rangers doing the hunting for one
tulip sun
Were they just running back out of fear?...
She has had too many betrayels to trust people like that
She left some alive- those that returned before the defectors starting running
sharp bluff
The light makes her happy to be undead
pale badger
Delusion, what are you hiding?
pale badger
Calia is in happy with her new drags
meager warren
which followers that wanted to split are ded?
tulip sun
kinda worrisome seeing AU Draenor xD
Practically all of the desolate council
Except a few that returned before they started running away
pale badger
I still like theory that Lighbound orcs are Ligh-undeads
It brings whole new picture
tulip sun
She let them live, due tot hem obviously being more loyal and not as emotionally vulnerable
sharp bluff
Lightbound <—- BOUND
pale badger
^Yes
Now Lightbound Calia will play Medivh next expansion and open Bright Portal in Azeroth while Yrel opens second one in AU Draenor
meager warren
"An allusion, what are you implying"
tulip sun
But she played it excellently...
tulip sun
Oh, sorry.
hollow dock
She's back to her old self.
For the moment
until prepatch where she's back to her new self
tulip sun
I mean, she does have a somewhat reasonable reason to get the Horde rallied up for war, besides stormheim and silithus?
She can easily twist this to say the alliance and such were trying to help forsaken rebels, etc.
tropic trail
She doesn't though. I don't think the whole story will be ferenced IG with a single word
hollow dock
^
tropic trail
Ingame it will just be the azerite story
tulip sun
Ya, but no one can say that the Horde is like, blindly attacking Teldrassil for no good reason. Just for the heck of it, alliance never did anything to them.
I am not saying they are great reasons
tropic trail
If you don't read the book, you will never now anything has happened at all
tulip sun
but there are reasons
tulip sun
Are they at war at this point?
hollow dock
the one you swore everything t
said
Go do this
Are you going to really ask her why?
tulip sun
I didn't know they were at war at this point in the novel
hollow dock
they're technically at war since Broken Shore mk. 1
tulip sun
I go to forums and the first thread is "Can someone else starting writing the novels?" xD
tulip sun
Didnt look yet
meager warren
ok
tropic trail
Also, the reason the horde attacks Teldrassil is mainly because it's a badly secured supply-route
For the fleet that's on the way to attack the horde in silithus
tulip sun
Alliance started the thread
dense plover
well the original plan is to wipe out teldrassil completely
so that the horde has kalimdor to themselves
and can stay there
hollow dock
but clearly sylvanas didn't set fire to the tree
tropic trail
that's retconned
tulip sun
But both horde wnd alliance are crying in the post
tulip sun
Thry say its character assassination v.V
dense plover
lol
tropic trail
No, the statement from Sylvannas was from the Alpha and was changed later, so it never became lore.
hollow dock
Even though sylvanas is just actinglike she used to?
meager warren
it's the truth when it hits live but it hasn't yet so we won't know until it hits live
dense plover
its not from alpha
hollow dock
from the devs themselves. that's the whole reason for teldrassil and llordaeron
tropic trail
Where is that stated ingame at the moment? scratch
dense plover
it hasnt been retconned
the teldrassil datamined stuff is in the files still
and the alliance part is sort of ingame
but its not alpha
and there have been no changes
hollow dock
just like the old gods getting free from all the titan facilities
tropic trail
I'm refering to this text here:
Do you mean something else?
Because to me, the story right now goes something like
The horde sits in Silithus, mining the Azerite (and monopolizing it)
the alliance starts to sabotage it. There are skirmishes
The skirmishes get larger (seething shore)
And the horde assembles it's army
The Night-Elven then send their fleet down to Silithus, threatening the mining operation
And Then Sylvannas decides that it's tactically advantegous to just do a decapactiation strike against the supply line instead of sending the army down to Silithus and fighting the alliance army directly.
And diverts the army northwards into ashenvale. (which would make a certain amount of tactical sense)
dense plover
that part is correct yes
but sylvanas had planned from the start to push out the alliance
this just happened to be a convinient way to do it
tropic trail
that's probably right.
hollow dock
Yea she does state in the book
She's doing it to secure kalmindor for the horde
Unless that's been changed
tropic trail
Haven't seen it in the book yet.
hollow dock
it was in the preview chapter from blizzcon.
In the book she was planning an attack on Stormwind, so tha tmight have gotten changed to Teldrassil
meager warren
oh.
ofc the alliance started the thread. they're not happy about their leaders seeing Sylvanas as she really is?
stupid ass alliance scum
dense plover
has summon random battlepet always been a feature?
dense plover
apparently tol dagor has been disabled until next build due to a series of really awful camera glitches
not surprising
some of the interior camera problems can be migraine inducing
silk sable
best addition to bfa
meager warren
what's that a reference to?
meager warren
oh
i haven't played/ seen/ read most of these things that warcraft has references of :c
tropic trail
oof now i will be able to get things to put here
hollow dock
How droll of a life D=
dense plover
so currently, you go to silithus, you do lordaeron through ogrimmar, back to silithus
this is awful
they need a portal or something
hollow dock
Can't you just talk to Ziridormi and restore everything?
tropic trail
it's about the quests
It will probably not matter as much on live, because it will be spaced out over a few weeks
If you have killed argus, you will have done the first part of the quests months ago
hollow dock
oh. Wait does the horde not have an inn there?
dense plover
and base game progression issues are back
no horde doesnt have an inn there
they dont have a fp with the wound either
hollow dock
yo that should get fixed
hollow dock
Last I remember, alliance had both those.
dense plover
you need to turn in a quest from magni and there is no turn in so you cant start anything
meager warren
Alliance bias confirmed
uncut vault
there is a portal?
right next to cyrus and genn in the office in kul tiras
to magnis camp
tulip sun
I like the amount of characters that appears in Before the Storm...
I wonder if Anduin actually gets to visit any racial capitols fully
That we get to witness
slate ingot
Before the storm feels like a rush job of Warcraft story
It's like hey here's a bunch of cool plot points that we will just haphazardly address
hollow dock
she's written the whole thing in what. less than a year?
like. in all honesty it is about the same quality as all the other warcraft books. Better than some.
uncut vault
Oh, if it's horde, their capitol just hasnt gotten any touchups yet
tulip sun
I like to see all the lore happenings. It does what it is suppose to.
slate ingot
I mean yeah, it's a product of rushing to get something out before the deadline it isn't the best but it's not the worst I've read like three Warcraft books tho
hollow dock
oh boy.
Mana.
There's a lot worse books than this
this is actually one of the better ones
slate ingot
I'm sure there is
It's just a shame that from the neat plot points they blizzard rush job it
hollow dock
Assomeone who has read most of them, yea this fits the bill of what a warcraft book entails.
hollow dock
Minus veressa I thought war crimes was fine.
slate ingot
I mean war crimes should have been done in game
hollow dock
All the books shoul dbe done in game
meager warren
Wasn't War Crimes written by Golden?
slate ingot
I mean yeah when they try to lump out content like they do
Stuff is cut unfortunately
rip 90% of warlords
hollow dock
Oh its not a manner of cutting content.
It's just a matter of time they can dedicate towards actual development. to fit the timeframe of making money efficiently.
slate ingot
Ye, bottom line being a business they do what they can to best suit them
But anywho
They turned off tol dagor
slate ingot
When you skip an entire raid tier of content that was suppose to fill in plot holes
tropic trail
I thought the problems began with the premise, tbh.
meager warren
the problems probably began when Ion and crew started hiring for diversity than talent
tropic trail
Time Travel and multiverse stuff (without really well thought out rules and explanations) are bad for stringent stories
uncut vault
ion wasnt even in charge for WoD lmao
didnt take his current role till after Legion launched
hollow dock
the only real bad storytelling in WoD was the 1 legion shit
uncut vault
which they kinda fixed in chronicles 3, it was just presented horribly in WoD
tulip sun
Any ideas on if any notable characters escape from draenor? Grom sacrifices himself
Is Draka still at a different area?
Lantesor is mentioned rallying soldiers
Here i truly thought it was only going to he some soldiers lol
sharp bluff
Draka i think was dead/soon to be dead since she was left behind
I think frostfire somewhere?
hollow dock
I think you'd really love the Iliad and the Odyssey Khamnin.
steel venture
WoD was ruined because of the fact that it was a mostly new staff that had to be trained at the same time they were making the expansion, and it was overambitious because it was suppossed to be Legion-sized levels of content for this new staff, the model revamp took far longer than they expected, the garrisons too far more resources than they expected, and the higherups were shoving the deadline down everyone's throat.
hollow dock
and that whole 1 legion malarky
steel venture
WoD basically went from "legitimate standalone expansion" to "filler to tide over the fans whilst the veterans actually work on the GOOD expansion."
because if they continued their original plans with WoD it would've taken another year.
since it was that unexpectedly large.
rich apex
WoD was the Perfect Shitstorm for a cascading set of minor to moderate problems
That all drummed together
hollow dock
sounds about right.
WoD had a great strong start. Just. The crush of everything after that. then the story alterations to fit legion.
tropic trail
Yeah. Also, Legion as a follow-up was pretty good, all things considered. So it's harsher in hindsight
hollow dock
I dont judge WoD to harshly.
Can't call it bad if it just didn't have anything in it
rich apex
Hindsight's a bitch
And because there was so many minor to moderate problems
It's a bigger bitch
People would have given garrisons or the overall plot a lot more slack
If there'd been more content, etc
But because there was a cascading of easy to bash problems
tropic trail
Yeah. Also I don't like the basic premises of the story regardless. But that's a matter of personal taste
sharp bluff
o.O new warlock effects
hollow dock
Shrug it's been tackled before in Twilight of the aspects. It was handled fine there.
uncut vault
new this build or?
hollow dock
BUt then again it was before this whole idea of timelines collapsing and 1 legion shtick.
tropic trail
Well, it's just the usual problem of writing more for cool scenes then for internal consistency. But that's not confined to WoD (just very prevalent there).
The storylines of the zones they finished were quite good, actually
hollow dock
yup. WoD's launch was real strong and had some great promise.
Just the moment that died down
it DIED
sharp bluff
I still remember the rush of people on frostfire ridge day 1
good times
the queue to get that wolf mount
2 hours - 3 hours long
steel venture
90% of content was done within the first two months. Basically.
After that point it died until 6.2 put it on life support, but it was practically dead after that.
tropic trail
On the other hand, legion had a nice overall flow of story (and I hold Suramar as one of the best zone stories like ever)
hollow dock
Now that Suramar isn't time or rep locked, heck yea.
steel venture
Even when it was time/rep locked it wasn't super bad.
hollow dock
the flow was. cuz of the time/rep
sharp bluff
lol that long rep/time gate
steel venture
It at least made sense to be, unlike fucking... Broken Shore and Argus on the other hand---UGH
hollow dock
at least argus wasn't as bad as broken shore
waiting a week
just to go kill 10 demons
steel venture
I still really dislike Broken Shore and Argus.
"we heard u like tanaan. so here's tanaan twice!!!!"
hollow dock
and wait another week
tropic trail
the one zone that really bothered me in legion was Val'sharah. Just the Tyrande/Malf-stuff.
steel venture
xavius = best troll
tropic trail
Oh, and the Alli/Horde-Stuff in Stormheim. Was a bit hard to renconcile the actions of my character there with the rest of stuff I did in legion.
meager warren
Xavius = best satyr.
Vol'jin = best troll
hollow dock
Xavius is the best troll because he just trolled the shit out of tyrande
tropic trail
But I guess I'll have to deal with it for the whole of BfA, so ther's that^^
meager warren
Undead paladins ftw
steel venture
Calia and Faol basically replace Sylvanas and Nathanos.
I would be okay with this.
meager warren
what's Calia's family name
hollow dock
Menethil
tulip sun
Menethil
meager warren
ok
hollow dock
She's the last true heir to all of Lordaeron
tulip sun
Faol supposedly is still neutral as well
bitter quarry
those new Spell Animations for Lock are looking Scweet
steel venture
They're backing the Desolate Council, and Lordaeron is primarily a Horde-loyal faction now.
However the whole POINT of the Desolate Council is "hey maybe can we not be assholes?"
meager warren
what if Calia secretly had a kid tho
steel venture
"and actually be diplomatic to the alliance?"
hollow dock
Supposedly that's Taelia
meager warren
ok
hollow dock
She and Bolvar supposedly had her and sent her to Kul Tiras
steel venture
wait seriously?
hollow dock
they're hinting at it
tropic trail
As far as I know her lover was a commoner (which would exclude Bolvar, a knight)
meager warren
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Still a better lovestory than Twilight
meager warren
no u
tropic trail
One Man Army
uncut vault
No :((
bitter quarry
i don't think so
uncut vault
im trying to count the max number of demons
meager warren
what if we're all ded and we don't know it
meager warren
:woke:
tropic trail
well, I do hope we get some closure to the class roders, but I'm not hopeful (beond the failure of the ertifacts)
uncut vault
over the course of 4 seconds you can have 30 demons
hollow dock
are you counting the suicide bats?
bitter quarry
i love the Portals the Demon Pups jump out of
meager warren
the point is they're still coot
uncut vault
I didnt count nether portal or the bats
the new imp jump anim isnt yet implemented
so hand of guldan spawns boxes
hollow dock
good
uncut vault
bitter quarry
with Each Hand of Gul'dan you get to open Lootboxes
hollow dock
you're guaranteed to get at least 1 imp per lootbox
meager warren
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
bitter quarry
Thats hot
meager warren
no u
west relic
uncut jetty
That's cool
tropic trail
So guessing the full kultiran like coats are alliance only?
runic verge
As a Night Elf fan, how do you feel about the Sentinels in Stormwind Harbor? Do you like them? Do they make you feel represented? Do you think they should be fighting in Ashenvale instead?
rich apex
Blizz ain't gonna update Ashenvale on a whim fam
Stormwind is were people are actually going to see changes to reflect the story
tulip sun
The two capitols constantly are updated
harsh canyon
Just make dailies in Ashenvale and Tirisfal
uncut vault
What’s bad about them being in Stormwind? It’s immediately post-prepatch
Of course they’d be in stormwind with the rest of the alliance
rich apex
They might make dailies in Ashenvale and Tirisfal
Who knows
But they sure won't be updating any old world zones just for the sake of cosmetic continuity
tulip sun
Theyll only update zones with story to the newest expansion
tropic trail
DOWN with the NELFS!
meager warren
I do hope they update all the other zones at some point but only when the story calls for it
ruby prawn
They should go back to old world zones with the story line and update those
Not necessarily in this expansion though
It would be awesome if they started revisiting the old content a little bit in each expansion. Kinda like what they did to darkshore and tirisfal
oak wraith
It's burning
There is a portal on the docks that brings you to Darkshore, and an NPC in that zone who can switch you to the past version
Which also removes the night elf refugees from Stormwind
umbral fiber
can you travel to Teldrasil and everything as it is now?
tropic trail
so now... Kalimdor only has the Exodar?
at this point you might as well kick the alliance out of kalimdor nobody's gonna go there
pale badger
As if ppl went there earlier
tropic trail
thats my point
it has literally only the most dead city
of all time
for alliance
pale badger
Ppl who went there for RP or some minor stuff still will
Darnassus is still Accessible
tropic trail
shrugs
still think its splitting the alliance and horde more
esp. early-game, between Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms
which is understandable
oak wraith
Yes, you can switch through one of those bronze dragons (Zidormi I think?) who is standing in Darkshore (and Tirisfal Glades as well, that's a burning mess with a toxic (literally) Undercity at this point in the timeline).
oak wraith
It's there for leveling 1-110.
(or at least leveling 1-20)
So early game nothing changes, I assume the change comes when you hit 110 and do the intro quest.
uncut vault
That's correct, its a post-prepatch quest stuff
cinder knoll
@tropic trail not sure if you realized it, but thats the point of Sylavanas actions, she wants to kick ali from Kalimdor
Exodar / Silvermoon are left because they are separate instance from Kalimdor and none cares... and from lore they are said as "last stand" on the continent
tropic trail
I would dispute the "no one cares" at least for silvermoon. I see much Salt about the issue. g
pale badger
Man HE Alliance and VE Crusade feeling is stronk
But it would lead to Amani with help of Zandalari to temp truce to drive back Alliance.
Elves are bad but it may lead to some better living with each other. Especially after BE and Amani have taken heavy loses and Land is big
tropic trail
ye i get that @cinder knoll i like the idea of it
hollow dock
I mean.
@pale badger We should just go to AU azeroth. Give horde their amani. Give alliance their high elves. It's a win/win
tulip sun
People are still going on about how valeera should join the horde in this forum post
-destroys there dream by linking previews where she is still loyal to anduin in bfa-
mint arch
lul, why would she ever join the horde
hollow dock
Like. What
hollow dock
people complain and bitch and moan about character breaking
in BFA
and then desire
a character to break themselves
and it's a strange resurrection that's at the moment with little context
mint arch
holy undead is stupid
hollow dock
since it's from the scattered remains of a leaked book
mint arch
i hope its something.... else
hollow dock
It's Calia resurrecting, but through the Light. She has an undead body but none of the rot
tulip sun
Oh, we on Calia again? xD
hollow dock
that's all we know
tulip sun
We know pretty solid what happens to Calia
tulip sun
We only have the very ending of Valeer and Anduin's chat sadly
Vallera
fml
Valeera
mint arch
gg
mint arch
ugh, so does the light create undead now?
tulip sun
I mean
hollow dock
again out of context
tulip sun
It kinda makes sense, literally every other power can do it.
And it is being shown to be just as corruptive and bad as fel, void, etc.
mint arch
ya, had this talk earlier
hollow dock
Actually
mint arch
i hate how the light is now corruptible
hollow dock
I think we are all missing something
Calia is undead
without rot
What happens if Sylvanas finds this out
mint arch
seeing a lot of light = fascism talk now -_-
tropic trail
Calia was resurrected the way she was because it was her wish to be so (notbecause the light suddenly ressurects people as undead)
hollow dock
Light rangers ***B O I S ***
mint arch
but hey, sylvanas toooooooooooooooooooooootally not evil~
mint arch
=D
tulip sun
But no, she isn't. Nice your agreeing
mint arch
aye, she be a poor misunderstood princess ;_;
hollow dock
She's just morally grey
mint arch
wait, it was Anduin and Faol that did the Calia raising right?
hollow dock
like when she slaughters those militant night elves in ashenvale. Execution style.
It was a naaru and Faol
mint arch
its all a misunderstanding vris
mint arch
hmm, new type of "undead"
hollow dock
All just a misunderstanding
tulip sun
We don't know about teldrassil yet.
tropic trail
Calia was raised by Anduin and Faol with guidance of a naa'ru
hollow dock
I think she did
and Im OK that she did do it
it's within her character to do scorched earth
zinc sandal
Kill the bitch
hollow dock
I dont understand why people think it's so wrong of her character to do it
hollow dock
One cursed to undeath
mint arch
cursed though?
zinc sandal
Not meant to live, not meant to die.
hollow dock
^
their line is
As everyones an undead.
Terenas is a ghost
Arthas is a Lich King and a ghost
Calia is forsaken
mint arch
does the preview pages mention why they bothered to res her?
hollow dock
Watch a new Menethil pops out of the ground and immediately is killed and made undead
tulip sun
I don't know, the dialogue of after it burns
hollow dock
I don't quite remember
mint arch
she did fck up the peace talk
tropic trail
Arthas is probably truly destroyed when the Frost-DK-Artifact is broken?
oof rot-immune undead would be a noice allied race
Lightforged Undead
hollow dock
Her dialogue leading up to it is everyone to meet at the tree and prior to the malfurion thing she wnats to show you just what Azerite exlosives can do
tropic trail
just call them the "Alive"
mint arch
i like dead light
zinc sandal
NO.
tulip sun
THey'd be reskinned Humans,
hollow dock
and since there's no craters in Darkshore
tropic trail
@tulip sun didnt stop them making void elves
limber mural
ner'zul would be destroyed as well by that logic so that's a win win
zinc sandal
And all the innocent people trapped in the blades
hollow dock
I wouldn't mind rot-less undead for the alliance
"If you want to play a rot free undead, the alliance is waiting for you"
tropic trail
they would be p noice
limber mural
cause iirc both arthas and ner'zul are trapped in the Blades
mint arch
but why would alliance make a race of undead? even if its with the light
tropic trail
and probably elves because blizzard
hollow dock
Because it is with the light?
mint arch
forsaken is a race cause sylvanas makes more forsaken
zinc sandal
They wouldn’t, but then again...
mint arch
nah, id think alliance would be fine with ppl staying dead
limber mural
I just want a race that has undead casting anims but not looking like they do
hollow dock
Why would the alliance accept a whole race of void corrupted elves?
hollow dock
and undead that are lightforged can be as well
tulip sun
I wouldn't call calia lightforged
mint arch
ya, but to make a race like this, it would mean the alliance is actively raising the dead
tulip sun
She was just brought into undeath by different magic
mint arch
which is :/
zinc sandal
Lightforged Forsaken: an everburbing corpse, a painful existence
limber mural
but hey moral greyness amirite
tropic trail
which is great because they can be gilnean too
hollow dock
itd be very hypocritical of them
tropic trail
lul
hollow dock
and I like that
tulip sun
She literally looks like a regular, recently rezzed undead except with glowing white eyes.
tropic trail
morally greymane
mint arch
greylliance
limber mural
doesn't greymane get chill
tropic trail
greymane for king of stormwind or warchief with the way blizzard's writers are going
hollow dock
Yea he does.
limber mural
damn
hollow dock
Thanks to anduins talk and the whole thing in the Arathi Highlands
tulip sun
So
limber mural
alliance really needs a psychotic one for the horde to hate
tulip sun
Do you think the uhhhh
mint arch
rip to all the "genn burned the tree" ppl
hollow dock
Most l ikely
tulip sun
As shown in the book
limber mural
it really can't be a morally nice vs not
hollow dock
I dont see why it wouldn't work.
Sadly brass it's turning out that just people dont trust sylvanas
limber mural
netherlight temple will always be our good ol priest magic school bus its all good
hollow dock
but the alliance is moving on. growing as a faction.
tulip sun
I trust her, haha. Believe in Vol'jin guys.
hollow dock
Sylvanas isn't tho
mint arch
no one should trust sylvanas
tulip sun
It is the very start of the expansion Vris
tulip sun
Illidan and Velen's arcs were over the entirety of legion
limber mural
Tbh since when were ramblings on one's death bed treated as in any way intelligent choices
mint arch
illidan 🤢
tropic trail
illidan is the illi-man
hollow dock
Illidan's "arc" was a bunch of uselessness that put him right where he started
mint arch
^
limber mural
but moral redeeming amirite
hollow dock
not even
mint arch
G R E Y
hollow dock
it just proved he was more of an asshole
and it wasn't because of him being a demon
he's just an asshole
hollow dock
He should have known that Tyrande and Malfurion wouldn't accept him
mint arch
his "sacrifice" is so dumb
hollow dock
because he's not done anything to actually redeem himself
mint arch
imma stay and look at sarg-kun
limber mural
everyone was like 'eh that's nice but eeeh anyway champion how about them demons'
mint arch
while the TITANS imprison him
hollow dock
Yea because Illidan never did the adult thing
find them
talk it out
get a resolution
limber mural
Illidan is gonna come back in 3 expacs time with some sick hearthstone skills
mint arch
sarg-kun will be back for the void lords fight
for sure
probably with another "redemption"
-_-
hollow dock
with a void-light titan named Azeroth - Pyromancer
mint arch
xD
limber mural
it was a mistake
mint arch
its alright, when sarg-kun stabs planets, it only causes a small crater and some fire
hollow dock
so was anime
mint arch
no biggie
limber mural
my finger slipped
mint arch
tropic trail
shenzin su is actually the azeroth wordsoul
mint arch
it was not a mistake 
tropic trail
ji firepaw is with the burning legion
limber mural
tbh in 2 expacs time when we've got all this power can we just go to silithus and loot it and it disappears
mint arch
ya, definitely does internal dmg but i wish more external dmg was shown :/
tropic trail
well i mean she does get pissed at him like 99% of the start area for being a dumbass
but he's not a dumbass
he's evil
he's the jar-jar binks of wow
limber mural
Like I'm happy for it, I have always been an advocate of purging Silithus with fire
tropic trail
he's not even morally grey smh
hollow dock
He's her dum dum
mint arch
the only good characters are the grey ones
hollow dock
I mean. Brass.
limber mural
tbh does he die if you just don't bother saving him in Siege
hollow dock
because the silithid
survived
Yes he does
if you leave the overlord up he does get killed
limber mural
Oh shit lol really?
hollow dock
and then she rushes in and gets killed herself
hollow dock
Nope
limber mural
cause that shit be not canon
hollow dock
they just die and you're in an AU where both pandaren leaders die.
hollow dock
Those orcs use humans as live target practice
limber mural
and goblins
hollow dock
and you think they're above killing a panda?
limber mural
like sure I could care a lot less about 'literally only one of us has had a speaking role since MoP opening' duo but
Welp, things you learn I guess
hollow dock
if you ever wanted to know if that happens you can just wait the I think its 5 minutes? maybe 8 until the candle goes out
hollow dock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSiVK1DpVw annoying talking in the background but this is it
wild pewter
Oh my God. Valeera actually gets some Anduin based content. I'm thrilled 😄
hollow dock
ye. They feel the need to once again solidify that she is sworn to house wrynn because of Varian saving her life
wild pewter
Awesome, fine by me. I'd love to see her in BFA, though I doubt we will.
limber mural
I just wanna clarify one thing
Are we assuming death by black arrow is normally unresurrectable
Or are we just ignoring the fact everyone and their mother can resurrect dead people
tropic trail
Ressurection seems significantly harder in the lore than ingame
limber mural
Yeah that was what I was wondering
hollow dock
I mean. There are only a very few sparse lore indications of resurrection happening?
tropic trail
I would go with "basically impossible, unless specific reuirements are met"
limber mural
I mean obviously Tirion cause everyone knows resurrecting on Krosus can be a line of sight issue
hollow dock
Anduin maybe resurrected varian in that cata short story, Anduin does the mass res at Lordaeron (then again he's super powerful at this point), Malfurion does it to Cenarius but then again he's a super powerfuldruid
tropic trail
I didn't think the thing in the cinemativ was a rezz. More a mass heal/replenish
limber mural
Honestly I'm kinda jaded by WoW main character deaths at this point
Nazgrim? Came back
mint arch
thing is, if ppl want Calia as the new forsaken leader, why would she join the horde?
steel venture
Honestly I don't feel like it was a proper mass rez either. It felt more like a ressusication.
hollow dock
that was supposed to be grom
limber mural
Yeah but still
steel venture
Y'know. Basically going "CLEAR! //zap" But with, the light instead.
cinder knoll
@limber mural sad news, Nazgrim is already ressurected
limber mural
the base principle of 'don't hold your breath he might be back in 2 expacs'
Like I didn't really give a damn when Ysera died
hollow dock
Well she's not even really dead.
She's still in the dream, like all others linked with the dream
limber mural
because I knew they'd pull some sorta Emerald Dream shit and it'd be like it never bothered happening
yeah
hollow dock
In which that's not even out of line of what the emerald dream does
So you can't really chalk that up to blizz being shoddy on killing characters
limber mural
I'm just saying main plot deaths have kinda lost their effect on me cause really if Blizzard want to they have enough lore grounding to bring anyone back basically
hollow dock
Oh any death lost its effect on me long ago
but that's because I know it never amounts to anything
limber mural
bar maybe Varian but even then I wouldn't be surprised
hollow dock
regardless of resurrection down the line
limber mural
Need another villain? Dw we have like 6 Gul'dans left in the box which one do we want today
kappa
mint arch
new light undead: varian
limber mural
my sarcasm tends to be really hard on sorry
hollow dock
They didn't even resurrect our gul'dan?...
limber mural
honestly I wouldn't be surprised if someone has to dissuade someone else (probably Anduin) from trying
hollow dock
Like AU ghoulish daniel is a much better Gul'dan than our Gul'dan
mint arch
saving our gul'dan for later~
limber mural
ghoulish daniel
hollow dock
ye he's ghoulish daniel
limber mural
that got a laugh outta me ngl
mint arch
though if Anduin alone resurrects someone, i doubt they'd end up a forsaken light hybrid
hollow dock
it's a meme from HOTS. So you can thank that community for the joke
mint arch
anduin + foal = hybrid
limber mural
well our Gul'dan basically did a 'Hey Sargeras-senpai I brought this temple for you oh damn excuse me while I get ripped apart by demons'
hollow dock
and Calia asked tobe forsaken
hollow dock
the light doesn't make you forsaken
hollow dock
Don't make any assumptions on info in the books until the full book is out and you've read it
limber mural
Correct me if I'm wrong here but surely the name Forsaken should just be applied to Sylvanas's lot?
sharp bluff
about the resurrection thing from earlier, don't forget they did not rez her right away either, there was a gap in between of probably significant time, which i am sure made things harder
limber mural
I was always under the impression that The Forsaken are the group, undead are the state of being
hollow dock
itdidn't zep.
It was a naaru and Faol doing it. She asked to be forsaken
that's it.
mint arch
which naaru btw?
sharp bluff
netherlight one
limber mural
Saara
hollow dock
Saa'ra I think her name is
sharp bluff
the old void lord
limber mural
'Would you like a better view of the temple? Say, from the outside?'
hollow dock
and I use forsaken to better describe what form she is atm
the book describes her to look like the other forsaken, not just average undead.
limber mural
Seriously?
limber mural
Didn't we already decide she can't possibly look like an average forsaken
hollow dock
litearlly a thousand different things
mint arch
The problem Sylvanas is going to have is she made a super matyr. Some of the undead of Laederon already wanted to defect to Calia when she was alive; now imagine the figure they have to rally around now: A Light aligned Undead Calia who doesn’t look like the other undead. For all the free willed Forsaken who wanted another option than Sylvanas, they now have their rightful heir in their own image. I figure tons of Forsaken were on the fence of having a living Menethil lead them, but an Undead one? This is going to blow up in Sylvanas’ face.
hollow dock
So you use the term "Forsaken" to better describe a thin corpse of a person that is undead.
limber mural
Tbh all I'm seeing is Anduin puts out Calia, Sylvanas has her killed, and both kinda look at each other like 'what the fuck'
hollow dock
Calia goes out on her own Brass
hollow dock
to meet with the desolate council
terse patrol
She’s like Sylvanas or Nathanos. Whole. Unrotten.
hollow dock
Sylvanas tracks down the council
Opprotunity strikes to wipe out the dissidents and mark them as traitors
she's now a hero
she spares the alliance. even more of a hero
limber mural
Unless like, she gets attacked by a fuckin bear before she gets rezzed
mint arch
no panther emote :<
limber mural
stranglethorn PTSD kicks in
hollow dock
fuckin weebs
JAINA-CHAN 
hollow dock
god damn weebs
terse patrol
limber mural
that does not count
mint arch
limber mural
nor does that
mint arch
hollow dock
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
sharp bluff
Lore wise? yes it will be a big split, player wise? anyone who hasn't read the book will be like "wtf? she is arthas' sister?"
mint arch
sharp bluff
i wonder how this will go down
hollow dock
Yea but that's how it always is
mint arch
calia-chan
limber mural
Nah, priest campaign does introduce her
hollow dock
CALIA METHOL
limber mural
mobile autocorrect
tropic trail
I don't think any player without an interest in the lore or the book will even know she died
limber mural
If nobody can spell my misspell then I must be pardoned
mint arch
hollow dock
you misspelled the misspell of the misspell to note its a misspell
I dont think a player who doesn't care about the lore will even remember she exists
sharp bluff
I still think the Loas told Vul jinn the truth, but does that mean her stepping down as leader of the forsaken giving it to a "lightbound" and leading the horde? or does it mean she did what needed to be done by separating the two sides?