beta-ptr-spoilers

[rich apex]

I doubt you get off early on Fridays to hit the bar

When you work for the biggest MMO in the market

[plush umbra]

If I wanted to fight as a human, I'd make a human

[tropic trail]

literally the dumbest thing since humans were the first things added

why disable it

yet give the option to walk as humans

[serene zodiac]

I miss my bug on my druid where I could shift from human to cat and still have the human voice in combat

[tropic trail]

the second you try to do something you're back to dog

[plush umbra]

Humans are boring anyways

[tropic trail]

but druids can fight in their other forms

[rich apex]

What's the point of rolling a worgen if you don't want to be a worgen

[serene zodiac]

the Worgen form voice bugs me the most

[tropic trail]

druid-man cant

[plush umbra]

they have good casting animations tho

[serene zodiac]

lmfao

I hate the Worgen casting animations so much

[tropic trail]

worgens are neat but it would be great to have a more human side also

since it's literally cured

[serene zodiac]

"lemme just flail my hands at you"

[olive mirage]

half cured

[tropic trail]

they just have some brain disorder so when you get into a fight they''re forced into dog mode

also the muh rp'ers

s e c r e t w o r g e n

[serene zodiac]

pfft

Worgen are by far the LEAST maligned thing you could be in wow

[tropic trail]

how many character slots do we have in BFA

enough for every single race + allied race?

[serene zodiac]

16 iirc

[tropic trail]

that is a no

lol

theres like 22 technical races, 21 if you dont count 2 pandaren

[serene zodiac]

I think theyre counting more on people having different servers for their factions

[tropic trail]

thats pretty gay

[serene zodiac]

16 is a lot of slots tho

for one server

[tropic trail]

when can we play as forsaken abominations though

[serene zodiac]

ew

[tropic trail]

thats what the people want

thicc boi forsakens

[serene zodiac]

I will literally never roll horde again if I have to listen to that gross gurgle in orgrimmar

aboms have the worst audio effect in the game

[tropic trail]

we need tall gnomes

and dwarfs

[serene zodiac]

I'm already grossed out at all of the bad gurgle noises for administeribg the vulpera salves and antidotes in vol'dun

isn't there a better sfx they can use?

[tropic trail]

whats the third undead faction

forsaken, scourge and some third one

[serene zodiac]

Ebon blade?

[tropic trail]

idk

could be

probably is

but doesnt seem right if they're just escaped scourge

[serene zodiac]

death knights are technically neutral

[tropic trail]

whereas undead are specifically raised by sylvanas iirc

the fact we still dont have a true neutral race sucks

Death Knights literally could have been it, select DK on Racial Screen > Choose Race on Class screen

reverse it

[serene zodiac]

opposite faction DKs wouldn't be welcome in either faction though

that's why they're not neutral in game

[tropic trail]

they could just start with bad rep

[serene zodiac]

hard pass

[tropic trail]

instead of unfriendly

[olive mirage]

there used to be faction betrayal, but that was in the 1.0 beta, and it only lasted 1 patch

[tropic trail]

lol nice

[serene zodiac]

yeah that sounds terrible

[olive mirage]

you had to get hated with your faction, then you started a quest to join the other faction

[tropic trail]

theres no real undead that would fit as an alliance allied race

[serene zodiac]

I don't see that succeeding in vanilla

[olive mirage]

and it was just coded, not actually implemented

[serene zodiac]

all of the paladins and shamans switching factions just to get guaranteed raiding slots

[uncut vault]

idk if it was mentioned cause I dont want to read it all

but straight back undead isnt for undead

its for the thin kul tiran npcs

[tropic trail]

it was mentioned

[serene zodiac]

makes sense

[tropic trail]

i was just saying it should be reused for it

give orcs a posture change why not forsaken

[serene zodiac]

maybe the undead posture change will make them lose their arms too

[uncut vault]

I mean if we were to get a new option for forsaken

[tropic trail]

crippled undead

[uncut vault]

Id rather it be the chinese version wiht nothing missing

[tropic trail]

so what does china get

[serene zodiac]

I mean the upright orcs in beta have no arms glitch

[uncut vault]

http://i.imgur.com/cdNPZre.jpg

[serene zodiac]

due to censorship laws, none of the bones are showing in Chinese clients

and the skeletons left by dead characters are instead tombstones

[tropic trail]

they should just improve customisation in general

[serene zodiac]

it's funny

[tropic trail]

why have just one when you can have both

[uncut vault]

yeah thats my point

[tropic trail]

straight-backed chinese forsaken

[uncut vault]

the no-bones option should be the forsaken's version of posture

[serene zodiac]

just go full Nathanos and have attractive undead options

[tropic trail]

nah give us posture too

because being hunched over is bad for u

[uncut vault]

I mean you're dead

thats pretty bad for you

[olive mirage]

so is being dead

[serene zodiac]

yeah what they said lmao

[tropic trail]

dont want it to get even worse

[serene zodiac]

playable skeletons

[meager warren]

Forsaken can feel pain from light and stuff. What if they can feel pain from shitty posture

[tropic trail]

playable leper gnomes when

[meager warren]

Playable gilblins

[serene zodiac]

unless shitty posture channels the light through their bodies

[meager warren]

What if it does :thonk:

[tropic trail]

undead leper gnomes for horde allied race 2018

[serene zodiac]

but if that were the case, we should have had troll paladins and orc priests long ago

[tropic trail]

no allied races have hero classes do they

[serene zodiac]

nope

[tropic trail]

pretty gay

[serene zodiac]

I want kul tiran death knights

[tropic trail]

i do hope allied races are variant races

moreso than anything

because meh probably the closest we get to character customisation lmao

and can have groups of say humans with different abilities

none of their classes differ from their real races do they?

[serene zodiac]

they do

mag'har can be priests

[tropic trail]

thats only diff?

[serene zodiac]

high mountain can't be paladins

[tropic trail]

++[]

99

[serene zodiac]

there are other differences that aren't as interesting

but there are class differences

[tropic trail]

rabbit stepped on my keyboard

[serene zodiac]

but so far we don't have any allied races that aren't a subrace of an existing playable race

[tropic trail]

do any of them fully make up for the original race's missing classes

[serene zodiac]

so they're all variants insofar

[tropic trail]

might as well continue it

[serene zodiac]

unless zandalari can be paladins, no

[tropic trail]

more alignment swaps would be neat but i understand that elves are the only one with it atm

because then it's still 2 elves to a side

maybe we get Un-Allied races lol

closest thing to switching faction i suppose

[serene zodiac]

void elves and nightborne

[tropic trail]

yeah

2 horde elves 2 alliance elves, more or less the same as just doing it with same faction

but cooler

but i suppose you'd need at least 2 allied races for every normal race to do the whole alignment thing

and then there's "why dont we have two alliance blood elves"

hopefully they do away with the faction system entirely in next expac

or let us pick sides, or have it be clan-based without these larger factions

or something

[analog bolt]

.-.

[hollow dock]

Sadly yhe game is built on red vs blue

Kinda hard to remove the base of the game this late in

[tropic trail]

doesnt mean we cant have horde humans

or be able to choose our faction after start area

[plush umbra]

not yet

iirc

they plan to make the nightborne/ Void Elves able to use DH later on in BFA's development

[tropic trail]

odd

[plush umbra]

not quite

[jovial coral]

A switch faction option after starting area would be unfair IMO

[plush umbra]

iirc they DH order hall has a thing where they teach other DH's

[tropic trail]

if they add more mis-aligned races it would be good to have a questline to join their clan

like the criteria to unlock them

plus a questline

[plush umbra]

I'm with Duteso, don't make factions race specific

just choose when you finish your prologue

ala pandaren

[tropic trail]

some wouldnt work too well in lore (becoming an allied race) though

for various reasons

zandalari need a damn good plastic surgeon

[plush umbra]

eh, the've tinkered with the lore a couple times

[tropic trail]

and some others were like "seperated from society for 20 million years"

[plush umbra]

Looks at Tauren Paladins

[tropic trail]

it would be weird if they just said "hey join us nerd"

[plush umbra]

Get in Nerd, we're going pvping

[tropic trail]

main change would need to be

guilds would have to be non-faction specific

which is another reason for guild housing

you could not meet up in a city if half your guild gets ganked

[jovial coral]

Interesting concept but needs more thought.

[tropic trail]

why so

[plush umbra]

you'd probs have to retocn a lot of lore or some such

not to mention changing the faction system this deep in WoW would probably be a programming nightmare

[jovial coral]

Would cities be non faction specific?

[tropic trail]

no

hence guild housing

[jovial coral]

Idk

[tropic trail]

there'd be no need for cities for guild stuff

with that

or have some non-faction cities

[plush umbra]

Guild housing is a nice idea, but not really necessary

[tropic trail]

anything is possibleeee when you BELIEVE

[serene zodiac]

faction pride is too big a thing for that to succeed

[tropic trail]

guild housing has been wanted for ages

it would make this entire thing simpler regardless

[jovial coral]

Would have been nice if they did that in Wod

[tropic trail]

becoming a nightborne or void elf and things like that would solve the factions issue but may be hard to unlock the ability i guess

[uncut vault]

they have not said they intend to add demon hunters to any other races yet, let alone allied races

all theyve said is that post-BfA, its possible theyll add hero classes to allied races

[tropic trail]

o true i didnt think about class restrictions

[uncut vault]

they hinted at a new DK starting zone but beyond that, theres no confirmation of anything

[tropic trail]

neat

[serene zodiac]

dk starting zone has needed an overhaul for ages

it's painful and kind of jarring with the time lapse

[tropic trail]

all of them take place at different times

cata 2 when

[oak wraith]

Try making a Void Elf, and then going to Outland 😉

[tropic trail]

that would trigger so many people

[serene zodiac]

lmao

[oak wraith]

"What do you mean, where's Alleria?"

[tropic trail]

all the pre-cata hate comes back with a vengeance

i meant post-cata

[serene zodiac]

I still like that the echo isles has vol'jin alive and well

[tropic trail]

pre-cata hate is uhh, bit different

[pallid crescent]

or varian in draenor garisons

[serene zodiac]

now Saurfang is gone, how long before they update orgrimmar

[jovial coral]

To fix / redo all the zones would basically mean wow 2

[uncut vault]

its already updated in org on alpha

at least last I checked

[serene zodiac]

a total overhaul is unnecessary

[uncut vault]

post-BfL Sylvanas is in grommash hold

[serene zodiac]

oh cool

I couldn't see past all the mag'har

[uncut vault]

its a bit buggy during the current beta stuff

theres two saurfangs there and sylvanas buried inside

[serene zodiac]

yeah, phases don't really work in beta

[pallid crescent]

I kinda wish allied races were just customization options of the races we have right now, tied to a questline to unlock said customizations via next character creation OR barber shop

[serene zodiac]

I would have preferred that as well

[pallid crescent]

imagine doint the tphartos scenario and not only tparthos becoming lightforged, but also you

[serene zodiac]

still salty I can't have the Lightforged horns on my regular Draenei, but I'm not willing to give up gift of the naaru

[pallid crescent]

^

[serene zodiac]

regular Draenei have the superior racials

I'm hoping zandalari aren't Lightforged 2.0 re: berserking

[pallid crescent]

extra class specific stat + 30% hp heal

[ruby star]

new build tommorrow? 😄

[serene zodiac]

maybe I'll be able to finish the desert area on zuldazar! o:

[pallid crescent]

is it open beta yet?

[serene zodiac]

nah

it only went beta what, two weeks ago? three?

[pallid crescent]

would've hoped to have a look at protection warriors in their curent state

bolster looks really strong

[hollow dock]

they do not Navi

They had stated on multiple interviews: No the allied races are not getting Demon hunters or DKs at least in this expansioni

[serene zodiac]

I'm still crossing my fingers for kul tiran dks later down the road

[pallid crescent]

is it confirmed that kultirans can be fat or anorexic? or just fat?

[serene zodiac]

I think so far just big. but I don't think the thin models are in game yet, are they?

[hollow dock]

Just fat.

the thin humans are just for NPCs. For variance.

they are in game, you can see em on the docks as fishermen

[serene zodiac]

blizz is obviously saving them for when they can't decide on what would make a good alliance allied race to counter a new horde allied race instead of making something up again.

side-eyes void elves some more

[jovial coral]

Blood Ethereals would look cool af

[hollow dock]

I dont think they'd look different to normal ethereals had the Nether Prince been successful

[serene zodiac]

I would have preferred ethereals tbh

I've wanted to play them since tbc

[hollow dock]

I honestly think we were supposed to have gotten Broken over Void Elves

but blizz swapped it like. Very last minute

[serene zodiac]

but then two draenei

[hollow dock]

I think that's why

[serene zodiac]

they COULD have done ethereals

[hollow dock]

I dont think so

not as allied races.

They'd require a full rework to become a player race

[serene zodiac]

sad face

[jovial coral]

Would be an interesting neutral race

[hollow dock]

they cant use any player armor, they dont mount up, theyre missing a lot of animations etc.

[tropic trail]

blizz will never do neutral race

improvements arent accepted

[hollow dock]

not after pandaren

[serene zodiac]

pandaren were messy

[hollow dock]

that'swhy they're not doing another neutral.

[tropic trail]

what was so bad about them

[hollow dock]

they weren't happy with the state of them on release, the restrictive zone that they had to get placed in

etc.

[serene zodiac]

yeah, it doesn't feel right or make sense to split a race and half and say "now you can't talk to your brother, it's treason."

[hollow dock]

Like an example of 'neutral done right' by blizz is the DKs and DHs. but those are classes and not full races so they don't really get the same luxuries.

[serene zodiac]

yeah, acherus has horde and alliance in it, always has

[tropic trail]

done right?

[serene zodiac]

I just wish they'd stop requiring us to be next to a goddamn runeforge to enchant our weapons

[tropic trail]

they're FULLY faction affiliated

w0t

they're just part of a third faction for their start zone

the Scourge

[hollow dock]

not even dut

that's why they work well

[tropic trail]

what

[hollow dock]

because theyre already faction locked ahead of time but give the illusion of being neutral

[tropic trail]

they really dont

they just lie about it

[serene zodiac]

lore wise the Ebon Blade is very neutral

[hollow dock]

And it still is in game. We as players are representitives of the ebon blade to our factions

[serene zodiac]

yup

[tropic trail]

let us play legion and scourge races

2k18

fuck azeroth death to all of them

[serene zodiac]

even though it gets sticky for Worgen dks since they're not Gilnean

[hollow dock]

yea no I'm one of the idiots that still lives on Azeroth

and if she dies

doesn't matter what faction you are

you're dead with her

[serene zodiac]

yeah

[tropic trail]

not really there is other planets

kill off the horde & alliance

ez fix

[hollow dock]

Oh yea? So you got an easy way to each of those planets right?

[tropic trail]

cant be factions if there's nobody to be in them

[serene zodiac]

yes because moving planets works so well

just ask the Draenei and orcs

[tropic trail]

worked for the orcs

[serene zodiac]

not really

[hollow dock]

They required a titan

[tropic trail]

are they dead

if not

then it worked

[hollow dock]

Like them getting to azeroth

required the work of the entire legion

and that's gone

[serene zodiac]

the orcs were forced to live somewhere inhospitable bc they were unwelcome everywhere else

the only reason they live in durotar is bc no one wanted that region

[tropic trail]

give us special neutral races

fel orcs

[serene zodiac]

and it was easier to live in the desert/steppes than fight for respect from your prison wardens

[tropic trail]

they're hated by everyone

thats neutral

[hollow dock]

theyre hated by everyone

including themselves

because theyre crazed with fel blood

[serene zodiac]

fel orcs were all destroyed iirc

[tropic trail]

so were other things that magically returned

[hollow dock]

and yea. Back in BC we wiped out what was left of them with the Illidari that weren't DHs in SMV

Like?

[tropic trail]

a third faction would be kewl anyways

not alliance

not horde

not neutral

a third

[hollow dock]

What have we wiped out that's returned?

[tropic trail]

the opposite of my will to live

[serene zodiac]

the game politics are messy enough without adding an extra player

[hollow dock]

not to mention the base of the game

doesn't support a third faction for players

[serene zodiac]

yeah

and balance is not blizzard's strong suiy

suit*

[tropic trail]

and expacs should not change the game?

i thought that was the entire point lul

[hollow dock]

they do tho

well not change

per say

they add ontop of the groundwork of everything that's come before

[tropic trail]

need more things like cata

overhauls

[hollow dock]

and those overhauls were done very poorly

becauseof the massive scope of said overhauls

[uncut vault]

there are fel orcs in the horde tho

[serene zodiac]

not very many thougg

[hollow dock]

Population numebrs dont mean shit

[serene zodiac]

not enough to warrant being playable

[hollow dock]

Look at the void elves.

[serene zodiac]

eurgh

they're so obviously pulled out of someone's ass

[hollow dock]

they are

but theyre playable

and they have most likely the smallest population of any of the player races

[serene zodiac]

because no one asked for them

[hollow dock]

Lore wise

not player wise

[serene zodiac]

the darkspear are also supposed to have a hilariously small population

[hollow dock]

Yea but trolls breed like rabbits.

[serene zodiac]

I don't recall troll breeding habits being touched upon in canon :P

but we just got mag'har, and that's four orcs in one. we don't need another orc.

[tropic trail]

r34 is for your troll breeding habits

[hollow dock]

what we need are the elves that have been with the alliance since its inception. :))))))))))))))))))))))))

[serene zodiac]

nah I'm p sure the void elves were at least partially made to shut people up about high elves

[hollow dock]

and that backfired

horribly

[serene zodiac]

very horribly

it made it worse, if anything

[hollow dock]

Yup

cuz it put the blood elf model on alliance

[tropic trail]

so you want

a fifth elf race

[serene zodiac]

kind of like how the zandalari announcement had that small section of the fan base who wanted forest trolls raging for a bit.

[hollow dock]

Trolls are precursors to the elves

and no ones complaining about that

in fact, people want even more trolls

[tropic trail]

yes we want trolls mon not druid ladies

[serene zodiac]

dire trolls or gtfo

[hollow dock]

High elves wouldn't be druid ladies what

Void elves aren't druid ladies

Blood elves aren't druid ladies

Nightborne arne't druid ladies

the only druid elves we have are night elves

[serene zodiac]

lmao

1/4 = all

give the horde ogres next to the high elves, that should make them happy

[hollow dock]

Ogres would need a really big rework to make em player races.

though,

[serene zodiac]

they would

[hollow dock]

they could give them half-ogres

since that rexxar model

is just

[serene zodiac]

but the horde WANTS them

[hollow dock]

unf

[serene zodiac]

mok'nathal

I approve

[hollow dock]

Or even better

[serene zodiac]

the only people who would be upset in that trade off are the alliance people who want vry'kul

[hollow dock]

as the high elves join the war effort due to the HInterlands warfronts

Revantusk full dedicate in

and bam

Forest trolls for the horde

[serene zodiac]

forest trolls, done

[hollow dock]

both sids get what they want and we can get back to the real problems

like the dumb forced faction war

[serene zodiac]

I mean technically I think when the highborne were welcomed back into the fold, they should have been high elves. since it was the highborne exiles who became the high elves.

[hollow dock]

True but the Highborne kinda fractured

[serene zodiac]

I'm laughing hard at the faction conflict from a character perspective, since my DK wouldn't participate since he's not technically an alliance race.

[hollow dock]

those that followed Dath'remar became the High Elves while those like the Shandrelar stayed night elves.

[serene zodiac]

true

[hollow dock]

Which Im kinda happy with. I had a story with one of my night elves that she was a highborne hiding herself as a lowborne to stay within her home

and in cataclysm she came out and it was great fun

[serene zodiac]

lol

I can't wait to see the cut scenes in the battle for lordaeron

even though it always makes me chuckle when thrall pulls out the dragon soul

[hollow dock]

I mean it's not as funny

as Jaina's boatmancy

and her summoning a boat to crush Lordaeron

[serene zodiac]

lmao

tbh if she hadn't left dalaran in legion, I would half expect that she would have dropped the city of mages on top of undercity

[dim flower]

Does anyone else have latency issues on beta?

[ruby star]

death wings back boi's

[dim flower]

^^^^^^^^^

[serene zodiac]

time to dance on his back again

[hollow dock]

I unironically enjoyed Spine and Madness

[dim flower]

How do we level professions on beta btw?

[serene zodiac]

madness wasn't bad

spine was only annoying if people didn't pay attention

[dim flower]

Spine sucked because players sucked.

[serene zodiac]

are professions even active for beta

[hollow dock]

They are

[dim flower]

idk

[hollow dock]

you have to gather

[dim flower]

I got professions

[hollow dock]

and then create

like normal

[dim flower]

Create?

But then how would I get points for Mining?

[serene zodiac]

by mining nodes?

[hollow dock]

Its like legion

[serene zodiac]

like normal?

[hollow dock]

you mine from 1

[dim flower]

I haven't gotten like

A single point

for mining yet

[serene zodiac]

maybe professions are bugged

[dim flower]

So maybe just smelting?

How do I get mining for BFA?

[serene zodiac]

oh god I hope not

[dim flower]

All I have is copper to smelt lol

[serene zodiac]

please don't bring back smelting

[dim flower]

Smelting's been in the game.

Even in Legion I believe

[serene zodiac]

for low level mats

[hollow dock]

its not been used since MoP

[dim flower]

Fr?

[serene zodiac]

yeah

you just use the raw ore now

[dim flower]

oh nvm i have mining points lol weird

What about Truesteel bars>?

in WoD?

(Little bit of PTSD for you miners out there)

[hollow dock]

that's a daily CD thing

[serene zodiac]

yeah those were special

[hollow dock]

Doesn't count as say

Smelting Saronite

or Ghost Iron

[serene zodiac]

uuuugh

[dim flower]

Still smelting

Just more tedious

[serene zodiac]

so much saronite

[hollow dock]

its no where near as bad

[dim flower]

I don't miss smelting.

[hollow dock]

because you dont sit there for like

an hour

smelting all your owe

[dim flower]

And AFK?

[hollow dock]

ore*

[dim flower]

It was still bad though

Because you couldn't make anything

[serene zodiac]

I left my Hunter once for ten minutes and wasn't done yet

[dim flower]

Since the CD was so long

[hollow dock]

yea but you had the buildiings

so that circumvented a lot of it

[dim flower]

Maybe I couldn't garrison very well lol

idk

I never really played much of WoD since I was already playing a class I didn't like.

[serene zodiac]

it least a lot of that nonsense was left behind

[dim flower]

Undead DK.

[serene zodiac]

yo dawg I heard you liked being dead

[hollow dock]

Blood DKs were fun

[dim flower]

Ye but I wasn't a blood dk lol

I was Undead.

Still hate Undead.

[hollow dock]

Undead isn't a spec wat

[dim flower]

Unholy****

Sorry

At this point it is Undead to me.

Since you're summoning Undead left and right.

[serene zodiac]

unholy is a bag of cats

[hollow dock]

I love legions unholy

summon a bunch of dead to do your bidding

[dim flower]

I still hate it.

I'm enjoying Arms Warrior though.

[serene zodiac]

I like having only three buttons to press

frost4lyfe

[dim flower]

Frost is ez pz until you get ran over tho

I feel like DKs need a buff tbh

[hollow dock]

run over by what? the boss?

[dim flower]

Not blood, they already don't die.

[hollow dock]

Unholy on beta is pretty strong. Frost needs number tweaks.

[serene zodiac]

it does

[hollow dock]

Blood is ok-ish.

[serene zodiac]

I really hate what they've done to frost

[dim flower]

Haven't played Unholy on Beta.

You might know why lol

[hollow dock]

Apoc is baseline

and no I dont know why

[serene zodiac]

I miss my dragon

[dim flower]

I literally

Just said

I hate the spec? 🤔

[hollow dock]

Oh.

Neat.

Still dunno why you wouldn't play it

[dim flower]

Because it's not my playstyle?

Sorry we're not all Unholy DKs?

[serene zodiac]

I gotta figure out wtf do to since I can't go pof+oblit anymore

[hollow dock]

But that's what you did in WoD? "?

[dim flower]

Because I hate releveling, yeah?

[hollow dock]

You dont relevel to swap specs

[dim flower]

I didn't like DK as a whole.

Frost is okay and fun to play.

Blood is a blast.

[hollow dock]

blood was fun tho

[dim flower]

But I wasn't a good tank so.

That's already off the list.

[serene zodiac]

dk plays much better in legion imo

[hollow dock]

All you need to do to be a good tank: Don't die

Doesn't matter how much damage you take

[dim flower]

And not let anyone else die.

[hollow dock]

as longas you dont die

[serene zodiac]

I've tried it at various times throughout it's lifespan

[hollow dock]

you're doing your job

[serene zodiac]

I'm an awful tank. I die.

[uncut vault]

frost would be perfect if they could use 2h again

[serene zodiac]

I can't keep track of my mitigation

yeah

[dim flower]

I hate the weapon baseline in Legion.

That's trash.

[serene zodiac]

I wish survival hunters could dual wield again too

[dim flower]

I wish Doomhammer was a 2h tbh

And we went back to 2h shammy

[hollow dock]

y'all only want this shit because you can't have it

[dim flower]

Yeah, but we once did.

And now we don't.

[uncut vault]

I mean we did have it, less than an xpac ago

[hollow dock]

2h shammy was only ever used in vanila

and it was only ever good

because windfury was buffed

bugged*

[dim flower]

With op windfury :D

ye ik

[hollow dock]

specificall with Sulfuras

[dim flower]

Why do you think I miss it?

[serene zodiac]

hmmmm no dual wielding survival was the thing for survival back when it was viable as melee to begin with

[uncut vault]

I dont care about the shammy stuff, I just want DW hunter and 2H frost DK back

shaman would be a bonus but

BfA isthe time to do it

because weapon damage no longer matters

[dim flower]

Not comin back.

Rip.

Wish it did tho.

[serene zodiac]

yeah

it is what it is though

[dim flower]

WAIT

IT IS

[serene zodiac]

?

[dim flower]

But weapons still have like two-handed requirements still though?

Don't they?

And shit like that?

[serene zodiac]

abilities do

[dim flower]

Well yeah

[serene zodiac]

I can't do shit in frost with a 2h

[dim flower]

That's why 2h frost and DW hunter doesn't exist though

OHHHH

nvm

I thought you were saying they're doing that in BFA

mb lol

[serene zodiac]

they're not afaik

they're keeping the weapon type requirements of abilities to make it easier on them

[dim flower]

Well I'm excited about one thing.

[serene zodiac]

because once again, blizz is bad at balance

[hollow dock]

that's not bad balancing lol

[dim flower]

They wouldn't give us buffs and hibernate back for no reason.

So we're probably going to need it again.

[serene zodiac]

I'm not saying it is

[hollow dock]

that's just them not wanting to redesign the classes

again

[serene zodiac]

I'm saying that it's easier for balance to keep the requirements

[dim flower]

Balance isn't always good though.

imo

[hollow dock]

Legions balance is pretty damn solid

all the specs are within a few hundred thousand of each other

[dim flower]

Bring the class, not the player. We need more that.

And I think we're getting some of that in BFA

[hollow dock]

We are

and I hate it

[dim flower]

Sucks for you

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hollow dock]

because that player can be terrible at their class

[dim flower]

No, no, no

That's Vanilla class > player

[serene zodiac]

I really don't want to be sat for a rogue

[dim flower]

Like

How do I put this.

Balancing is needed in some places.

[hollow dock]

and having more fights like Mythic Blast Furnace

is a nightmare

[serene zodiac]

eeeeewwww

[dim flower]

That's a bit extreme though.

[hollow dock]

Bring the class

not the players

:)))))))))))))))

[dim flower]

Requiring a class for a fight like that.

Is stupid.

And everyone knows it.

[hollow dock]

that's why you rather bring hte player

and fuck class requirements

[dim flower]

No, no, no.

It's not black and white.

Some of both.

[serene zodiac]

or like KJ with the immunities for the armageddons

[hollow dock]

^

that's what bring the class means

[dim flower]

I said bring in some of that.

some

[hollow dock]

Bring the player means that hte classes aren't all that integral to getting the fight done

[dim flower]

someeee

[hollow dock]

there is never some

[dim flower]

There can be.

[hollow dock]

there is either all or neither

[dim flower]

No.

[hollow dock]

that is how our community works

[dim flower]

That's not true at all.

[hollow dock]

that is how blizzard has worked

[dim flower]

Your idea of our community is trash.

[hollow dock]

Again, see mythic KJ

Mythic Blast Furnace

[dim flower]

Again, that's examples of going too far.

Maybe just idk

NOT

[serene zodiac]

it winds up punishing good players because they're playing a class that doesn't have a specific ability needed for a strat

[hollow dock]

^

[dim flower]

Again

That's bad implementation of it

[uncut vault]

they already made weapons irrelevant to your damage in BfA, because abilities no longer calculate based on weapon damage

[serene zodiac]

it literally always means that

[hollow dock]

that's the only implimentation that exists for it

you bring the class

[uncut vault]

only thing holding back DW survival and 2H frost is the restrictions on abilities

[hollow dock]

because it makes the fight easier

or their OP

[serene zodiac]

someone always gets screwed

[hollow dock]

if you bring the player

it doesn't matter the class, they do well to do well

[dim flower]

You're taking my point.

[hollow dock]

which is the current state of things and everyones pretty happy on that

[dim flower]

And going out the window with it.

[hollow dock]

you're point is to bring the class not the player

[dim flower]

Wrong.,

[hollow dock]

that methodology has never owkred

[dim flower]

My point is.

[hollow dock]

that is literally what you just said

[dim flower]

We should have some more class variety.

[hollow dock]

several times

WE DO

RIGHT NOW WE DO

[dim flower]

Way more.

Alright

That's it

taking out the snip tool

[hollow dock]

All classes

[dim flower]

Thanks for making me d o this

[hollow dock]

every single class

is viable for raiding

the player is what matters

not the class

[dim flower]

By this line

[serene zodiac]

like with the raid buffs, unless you were a hunter, you would have a high probability of being sat for a different buff that was missing from the comp

[dim flower]

I mean

[serene zodiac]

and they're bringing that back.

[dim flower]

That we shouldn't make it so Windfury is fucking bugged OTKing bosses

[hollow dock]

that hasn't been a thing

[dim flower]

Or Priests are required for Mythic Blast Furnace

[hollow dock]

since Vanilla

[dim flower]

Or KJ

I'm fucking saying

That we should at least have classes

[hollow dock]

So then why bother with brinignt he class over the player at fuckin all?

[dim flower]

That are generally better at some aspects of the game.

Than other classes.

[uncut vault]

I mean, they are doing that in BfA, Ion's said as much

[hollow dock]

THAT ALREADY EXISTS NOW

[dim flower]

NOT REALLY THOUGH

NOT ENOUGH OF IT

[hollow dock]

YES IT IS

[serene zodiac]

that's literally mythic kj

[uncut vault]

theyre just going to strike a balance between the two extreme ideals

[hollow dock]

certain classes are amazing on say Argus

[dim flower]

^^^^^^

[hollow dock]

because they can burst down

[dim flower]

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD GO FOR

[hollow dock]

BUT WE BOTH KNOW THEY AREN'T GOING TO DO THAT

[dim flower]

HOW DO YOU KNOW

[hollow dock]

Past examples of them 'trying' to make classes more prominate

made it impossible to get past without

[dim flower]

Oh yeah?

Maybe Blizzard could prove that wrong.

[hollow dock]

Maybe

but until then

[serene zodiac]

yes, but the people who don't play those classes get punished bc they get sat for other classes that do better, even if those players aren't as skilled.

[hollow dock]

^

Class stacking has been effectively been removed

we dont want that returning

[dim flower]

ofc not

Variety is always good.

[hollow dock]

and that's what 'Bring the class, not the player' does

right now

[dim flower]

Again

[hollow dock]

anyone

on any spec

[dim flower]

You're taking what I said

To the

[hollow dock]

can raid

[dim flower]

literal

fucking

extreme

Can you read?

[hollow dock]

Right now

[dim flower]

I said we need more of it.

[hollow dock]

it doesn't matter what spec/class you play. There is a strat

[dim flower]

Imagine a spectrum

[hollow dock]

you can use with whatever team comp you can make

with the players that want to play

[serene zodiac]

shit, me being the lowest mobility motherfucker can still raid because I have some modicum of skill

[dim flower]

This is what I'm saying we should have

[hollow dock]

There will never been a perfect spectrum like that.

Unless all classes are homogenous and all players are on the same skill level

[serene zodiac]

DKs are literally only actually good for grips when we look at the "bring the class" idea. so my only shot is mythic aggramar.

[hollow dock]

^

[dim flower]

This is what we have.

We should lean a bit more towards class.

Is what I was saying.

[hollow dock]

Except that when we do

class stacking occurs once more

[dim flower]

So you're saying we should go more right?

[hollow dock]

yes. The PLAYER is what should matter

[dim flower]

And just make every class the exact same?

[hollow dock]

not the class they are playing

[dim flower]

So there's absolutely 0 variety?

[hollow dock]

the classes RIGHT NOW AREN'T THE EXACT SAME

Affliction Warlocks

[dim flower]

Well you said we should go more right.

[hollow dock]

gods on dogs

shit at Aggramar

[serene zodiac]

gods on high command too

[dim flower]

I never said we have that exact thing now.

I'm saying.

You just said you want to go more right.

Well how much further right do you want us?

And if you're a fan for balance.

This should already be bad

[serene zodiac]

you can make the classes different without making them imbalanced and OP

[fallow jacinth]

of course, blizzard could design raid encounters that do favor certain classes, however, they could also design a way for raids who don't have the benefit of class stacking to a ridiculous extent an alternate way of defeating it.

[dim flower]

Exactly

Maybe

If they design raids around all classes.

And then implement more class identity and variety.

[fallow jacinth]

much like enabling hard mode in ulduar

[dim flower]

Then we could have the perfect balance.

[hollow dock]

But we already have that

[serene zodiac]

most of the class stacking raids are doing are for cheesy strats

[hollow dock]

No one does what DKs do. No one does what hunters do. No one does what priests do except for their classes

their tools are brought to the table and are useful at some fights but not others

[dim flower]

Yes, which is the first step in the right direction

[hollow dock]

but are still strong in their own rights

[dim flower]

Which is why we're close to balance.

But we could get closer.

That's why I only said.

[hollow dock]

How?

[dim flower]

I'm Happy

For buffs and hibernate.

And stuff like that

Coming back

[hollow dock]

So now again

we're required to bring the buff classes

or else w'ere missing the buffs

[dim flower]

And what's wrong with that?

[hollow dock]

and since hunters can't supplement the buffs

[dim flower]

Bringing one of those classes?

What's so terribly wrong?

[hollow dock]

I guess just fuck you if you can't get that particular calss

[dim flower]

No, just make Hunters more talented in other areas.

[hollow dock]

Except that doesn't change that you're missing that buff

[dim flower]

Or give them a buff.

Either one.

[hollow dock]

and you're unable to get said class

[serene zodiac]

oh yes, raids with six hunters again

fun

[dim flower]

Wtf?

How would giving them a buff make there be six hunters a group?

[hollow dock]

that's how you circumvented the need of classes for buffs

[serene zodiac]

Hunter pet buffs/debuffs filled the empty spaces

[strange falcon]

technically you can have the inscription buffs which are 75% of the normal buff

[serene zodiac]

I had to use a damn raptor in cata

bc we didn't have a dps warrior

[dim flower]

I think the idea when you're making a group and you have the idea "Oh, we should bring a druid, since it would make this specific encounter easier to sneak around the mobs with hibernate" a great idea.

You can oppose that.

That's fine.

That's your opinion.

But I'm allowed to like this.

Okay?

[hollow dock]

but

[dim flower]

Don't tell me that's flawed.

[hollow dock]

we do that now

[dim flower]

And it could be better.

I'm not ripping on your Legion lovechild

Aight?

[hollow dock]

"Oh hey we're doing agg tonight. Bring in a DK so we can get the adds o him faster"

[dim flower]

Ye, more of that is good.

Buffs and hibernate.

The right direction.

[hollow dock]

We already have that for each of the fights in Antorus though

"Hey we're doing mythic dogs, bring in like. 2 affic so we can get through the fight faster."

cuz multi-dotting.

[dim flower]

Ye

Good

More of that

[hollow dock]

We already have

[dim flower]

We're on the right track.

[hollow dock]

the balance

you're wanting

[dim flower]

I'm not bashing anything.

[serene zodiac]

but then who gets punished bc they're not an afflic warlock?

[dim flower]

Nobody.

[hollow dock]

At the moment noone

[dim flower]

Because there are 10-40 raid slots.

[hollow dock]

because afflcition is not a requirement

[serene zodiac]

not in mythic

[dim flower]

Now, now, now.

[hollow dock]

and not on a mythic team Offline

[dim flower]

Slow down.

I"m not saying we should require classes.

So don't imply that.

[hollow dock]

We already have the balance you're wanting then

[serene zodiac]

you literally did though

[dim flower]

I never said that.

[hollow dock]

if you want more buffs for players, then fine.

OK.

[dim flower]

I said we should have more class recommendations.

[hollow dock]

but that has nothing to do with bringing hte class or improving what we already have

but we already do

[dim flower]

Yeah it kinda does.

[hollow dock]

for every single fight there are recommended classes

[dim flower]

It leans more towards "Bringing the class"

Which again

Can be perceived as a spectrum.

And again.

[hollow dock]

You're just ignoring everything Im saying

[dim flower]

We can have a couple more recommended classes per fight.

[hollow dock]

so Ima ignore everything you're saying

[dim flower]

I just took what you said.

And answered it.

Wtf?

Fine, ignore me.

Gets me back to beta sooner.

[hollow dock]

There was nothing to answer

[dim flower]

I'm replying to it then.

[hollow dock]

It is a simple fact

[dim flower]

What do you want me to do?

[hollow dock]

we are at the balance you are wanting

[dim flower]

Conform and cuck up?

Say, you're right Sir. Vris?

I'm simply giving my points.

And yes, you are right.

We have a nice amount of class-player balance.

But I'm saying we can make it better.

Nice > Perfect, and yes, we'll never get perfect.

But we can get closer.

[hollow dock]

But at that point you're asking blizzard to dance a very dangerous line

[dim flower]

Yes, I am.

That could be worth it.

In the end.

[hollow dock]

It's taken all of Legion to get to this point of not requiring classes for fights

[serene zodiac]

a line blizz doesn't dance very well

[hollow dock]

^^

[serene zodiac]

we're lucky to be where we are

[dim flower]

Well they're already doing a great job.

With the buffs and stuff.

[hollow dock]

as a whole, Antorus is 'easier' than Tomb ever was because they removed so many of the punishing mechanics

[dim flower]

Dungeons could change from how they are now.

To how they used to be.

[serene zodiac]

tomb of rng

[dim flower]

And I think that's a wonderful thing.

Antorus was a great tier imo.

I loved it.

[hollow dock]

it is

[fallow jacinth]

they need a way to make it so that classes can be unique enough so bring what seem like nice perks rather than required bonuses. The problem begins because encounters are designed really to only be defeated in one way with little variation. If encounters can be designed with multiple paths to victory, then classes can be made very unique and their skillset will simply make the path to victory change, rather than make it either possible or impossible.

[hollow dock]

it's a fantastic tier and it's so refreshing to hear from the top raiders that no classes are really required, they just sometimes make the fights easier.

[dim flower]

Yeah, no classes being required is a great thing.

[hollow dock]

Which again Bow

that has it right now

in Antorus

[serene zodiac]

you can still succeed with any comp with the right amount of skill

[hollow dock]

^

[serene zodiac]

and I prefer that

[hollow dock]

The player feels rewarded for being good at the class they love

[dim flower]

Although more than just "2 afflic warlocks" being recommended might be better.

[hollow dock]

rather than play a class they have to

[serene zodiac]

I HATED worrying about comp

[dim flower]

Like "Oh, our dps is low, what should we do"

"Let's bring in a warrior since we could use an AP buff and we don't have it!"

"Great idea!"

[hollow dock]

but that wouldn't change the low DPS issue

[dim flower]

"And kick lowest DPS!"

"Even better idea!"

There ya go

[hollow dock]

You wouldn't need to bring in a warrior specifically

you just bring in a better geared DPS

[dim flower]

No, you could bring in another buff class.

[true matrix]

sorry I'm still in awe at the phrase "conform and cuck up"

who says that unironically

[hollow dock]

cucks

[serene zodiac]

the 5% buff won't fix dps that are performing under the tanks

[dim flower]

Right okay.

Wonderful community. Thanks for your appliance of knowledge.

[serene zodiac]

I mean, welcome to wow? what did you expect?

[hollow dock]

Like we're just confused to how you think it can improve despite the fact that it's at the best that it's ever been.

[dim flower]

Anyways back to the class-player thing.

"
Best it's ever been"

It can improve.

[hollow dock]

How?

[dim flower]

WITH THE BUFFS

[hollow dock]

without forcing a need of a class

which is what buffs do

[dim flower]

YES

WE'RE GETTING THEM BACK

YAY

THAT'S ALL I MEANT WHEN I SAID WHAT I SAID

[hollow dock]

SO YOU WANT THEM TO FORCE A NEED FOR A CLASS

[dim flower]

THAT'S NOT IT AT ALL

NO

WHO THE FUCK THINKS WE NEED MORE AP TO KILL A BOSS

[hollow dock]

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I JUST SAID

AND YOU AGREED WITH IT

[serene zodiac]

that's what will happen tho

[dim flower]

No, that's not what I said. At all.

[serene zodiac]

that's what happenED

[hollow dock]

its not what you said

[dim flower]

Buffs are not going to sit classes.

[hollow dock]

it's what I SAID

and you agreed with it

[true matrix]

this argument is going in circles

[serene zodiac]

not if you're a hunter

[dim flower]

Apparently so.

Not worth it.

[serene zodiac]

it is

[dim flower]

I'm going back to my beta.

[serene zodiac]

bye

[dim flower]

And you guys can agree to disagree.

Cya, gat.

Fuckin hell.

Stubborn as hell.

[serene zodiac]

yep

[dim flower]

Yep

[hollow dock]

Yes we are.

[dim flower]

Welcome to WoW I guess.

[serene zodiac]

we're wow players, it comes with the territory

[hollow dock]

If blizzard does better than what we expect

then OK.

[dim flower]

(Just pls don't step foot in my classic I just want Vanilla to be good D: you guys can have BFA)

[hollow dock]

Our arguements will stop

but

Oh that's fine

enjoy your shitty broken game over there

don't touch my BFA tho

[dim flower]

Ohhhh I see

You're one of those players.

[serene zodiac]

blizzard has a habit of breaking what they fix

[dim flower]

Yeah, no, you really aren't worth it are you lol

[hollow dock]

^'

[ruby star]

Whats going on