if a stronghold has people, those people live nearby all in one town
#beta-ptr-spoilers
meager warren
well if you kill them, you'd certainly have a small army after you.
you killed innocents just to get at their family who just happened to be soldiers.
That's tantamount to genocide and should be considered a war crime at the very least
dense plover
it isnt genocide
hollow dock
these all are war crimes. but apparently not considered war crimes cuz its against hte other faction
so its OK
dense plover
you killed because soldiers live there
hollow dock
apparently
hollow dock
What if there wasn't any soldiers there and you just wiped out a commune of civilians?
dense plover
fucking taurajae
meager warren
you killed them to get at specific people in a specific ethnic group/ nation
that's genocide
hollow dock
Taurajae was destroyed by the Cataclysm I though.
hollow dock
and the alliance just took advantage and looted
dense plover
no
they took advantage and killed everyone
they burned it down
killed them
and looted
alliance is no better than the horde
they just are easier to identify with because they are human
meager warren
it's because they're humans that they're harder to identify with, to me
hollow dock
For his own part, High Chieftain Baine Bloodhoof accepted that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, as they did train hunters and warriors there, and knows that Hawthorne refused to have its civilians slaughtered.[4] Due to the attack, the way into Mulgore was reinforced with a wall and a gate.[1]
Even though Baine considerd it a military target
The civilians were not targeted
🤔
hollow dock
By defending their homes
dense plover
from the alliance side
hollow dock
otherwise they weren't touched
dense plover
no
hollow dock
It even specifically says
dense plover
everyone there was killed
hollow dock
Hathorne refused to have its civilians slaughtered.
hollow dock
the ones that did end up dying, did so fighting for the horde
dense plover
During the events of Cataclysm, the town was destroyed by the Alliance, in order to secure their offensive against the Horde. The Alliance, expanding from Northwatch Hold under false information that the tauren were planning an attack, had razed Camp Taurajo.[1] Several quest chains do show that General Hawthorne, who led the assault, ordered his men to give the townsfolk an opening in their defensive lines for them to escape. He had also ordered the camp to be firebombed by Wildhammer mercenaries, whether before or after the battle is won stays unknown.[2] Several civilians were killed during the assault, some stated as while defending their home from the Alliance forces.[3] The civilian casualties caused some within the Horde to call the Alliance attack a massacre.[3] For his own part, High Chieftain Baine Bloodhoof accepted that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target, as they did train hunters and warriors there, and knows that Hawthorne refused to have its civilians slaughtered.[4] Due to the attack, the way into Mulgore was reinforced with a wall and a gate.[1]
some were innocent too
hollow dock
When scouts reported that Taurajo's most dangerous units were out on the hunt he ordered the sacking Camp Taurajo, despite it being a 'soft target' he recognized that the camp had been used to recruit, equip, and train Horde infantry for many years. During the attack he ordered his men to leave a gap open in the line so the citizens of Taurajo may escape, and despite this many civilian casualties did occur. Hawthorne also ordered Wildhammer mercenaries to firebomb the village. Following this there are those in the Horde that refers to Hawthorne as the "The Butcher of Taurajo" due to his actions killing many civillians.
meager warren
TL;DRs pls
dense plover
did his best
hollow dock
and he retaliated
dense plover
read
some that didnt attack were killed too
theres a quest where their ghosts say what happened
some innocent children are slaughtered
a mix of innocent and not innocent npcs too
its the exact scenario you threw at me vris
the alliance is just as bad as the horde
they just dont have the plague
hollow dock
I dont deny that at all Peach
but the quest text clearly does state that Hawthorne didn' tpull a syvlanas
and purposefully slaughtered everyone
hollow dock
The alliance is pretty shit
dense plover
i still dont understand the attack on brennadam
hollow dock
but the horde has always been -more- shit
uncut vault
I know I’m probably late on this, but I feel so vindicated with the Teldrassil art
meager warren
Horde will be slightly less shit as soon as Sylvanas gets taken down.
Either by her death or the rest of the horde finally gets tired of her shit
uncut vault
I remember so many people saying that it had to be Vereesa
dense plover
from a horde perspective
unless you are an orc
what is the problem with sylvanas
she hasnt fucked over the horde at all
she saved them at the broken shore
she won the battle in stormheim
hollow dock
I do have a neutral darkspear troll, former member of the darkspear, and she absolutely despises Sylvanas because she indescrimately kills whoever.
hollow dock
Former member.
dense plover
read their history
hollow dock
of the darkspear tribe.
meager warren
darkspear trolls aren't neutral
and no such thing as former member.
that's not how it works
hollow dock
If you leave your tribe, that does make you a former member of said tribe.
meager warren
how did you leave your tribe? 🤔
hollow dock
By simply doing that. Exiling herself. Leaving. There is no law or rule that every troll must stay a member of their own tribe.
ruby star
@uncut vault yeah I don't think it's Vereesa
hollow dock
I no longer believe it to be 100% veressa, but I still can't pin a reason why Sylvanas would sit there with that elf.
tulip sun
Hm..
Darkspear honestly seem like one of the group's that would support what she is doing the most
hollow dock
they look very similar
tulip sun
One thing is off, the cloak
hollow dock
But I won't give in to it until its 100% confirmed
hollow dock
Ive come up with a few situations why she would be there, but it seems like those wouldn't work.
tulip sun
The story of attacking teldrassil seems to last a while
meager warren
Alleria could be a good Horde/ Alliance leader if she had any personality whatsoever
tulip sun
From these novellas to what we experience in game, the WQs and such
hollow dock
She has plenty of personality within the audio drama.
tulip sun
What if she comes as reinforcements towards the end, when the tree actually burns
hollow dock
She's willing to do whatever it takes, take whatever she can, to protect her family.
uncut vault
Not liking her character doesn’t mean she doesn’t have one. I say that about Vereesa too
hollow dock
She also gets annoying by Turalyons glow and I think that's adorable
tulip sun
I feel like they are pushing Alleria vs Sylvanas
meager warren
so in other words, she's a carbon copy of pretty much every other character in WoW that sucks?
hollow dock
110% edgy. She has absolutely no other traits than what I just described in a few quick seconds
IN fact, no one in this game has any other traits than their stereo types
meager warren
meager warren
orly
meager warren
http://prntscr.com/j1y9ns
@tropic trail
tropic trail
Jaina for example, you see her grow and change a lot
meager warren
we don't talk about Jaina
tropic trail
Anduin then, wimploser who believed violence is never the answer, now understands that some situations call for righteous defense.
and is now a manly man gentleman
uncut vault
I mean he’s never been that but 🤷
uncut vault
Never been a wimp. Every single venture of his has been on the offensive for peace
And hes still doing that today
hollow dock
He put himself on the line for death
to stop garrosh
I wouldn't call that being a wimp
tropic trail
so yeah, he became a manly man
hollow dock
the child grew up from his naive point of view of 'Pacifist' to true Ghandism.
tropic trail
prior to mop, I don't remember him really going on the offensive and fighting anyone
hollow dock
Always seek peace, but know that sometimes you must fight to defend yourself.
He helps us uncovered the Twilight's Hammer plot in Stormwind.
which leads us into the Twilight Highlands
tropic trail
I did forget about that
meager warren
anyway, fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity
hollow dock
It really isn't. Because its not a true 'fight' in the sense of beating each other sensilessly.
sudden oak
it ended up quite well for the pandarens tbh
hollow dock
Yes. He always advocated for non-violence but does understand you have to fight to defend yourself.
tropic trail
So, if you're attacked you shouldn't fight back, otherwise you don't deserve peace?
meager warren
when did Gandhi fight?
He stood his ground with other people of his country/ ethnic group and refused to do violence
it'd be kinda ironic to advocate for non-violence when you have no issue with being violent
sullen dagger
you are facing threats and answering appropieately, not warmongering
hollow dock
Not really ironic. As again, it's still believing in going for every avenue to prevent violence, but not shy away from it when it was necissary.
Like green pointed out, if they were attacked, they would retaliate.
tropic trail
Just becasue Gandhi went about getting peace one way, doesn't mean there aren't others
meager warren
if i were attacked, i would try to stop it.
if i can't stop it, and no other options are available, i'd go to violence.
tropic trail
I'm not sure what "stop it" means to you
but that usually means defending oneself
which usually involves violence
meager warren
retaliation against violence can land you in prison if there were other means to end it
no it doesn't
tropic trail
if some guy tackled me, I'm going to punch and kick him until he gets off
meager warren
have you heard of talking?
hollow dock
and that's what Ghandi believed in as well. But before resorting to violence, he would search out for peaceful solutions. Even though he personally wouldn't fight in the war against enemy cambatants, he still had people recruited for WW1.
tropic trail
if civ taught me anything, it's that gandhi is a warmongering bastard
who always rushes nukes
meager warren
civ?
meager warren
oh
hollow dock
Ghandi is the head of one of those civvies and he is a warmongerer in that game that rushes the research of nuclear weapons
meager warren
so you're taking the ideas of a game and spreading it to real life. k
hollow dock
It was meant as a joke
tropic trail
There was a bug where gandhis aggresion score ended up being negative, which put it at the highest possible
meager warren
o rly
ruby star
Gotta love the Civ Ghandi memes
tropic trail
so he would always rush nukes
meager warren
http://prntscr.com/j1yha4
some people, including Gandhi that advocated for peace
can't think of any others atm
meager warren
yes but that's beside the point
tropic trail
except according to your argument you shouldn't fight at all if you believe in peace
meager warren
"It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war"
meager warren
🚫 no
defending yourself is okay
retaliating is not okay
there's a difference
tropic trail
Pretty sure this whole argument was about if its ok to defend yourself or not
that's all the examples I gave, and you said no
meager warren
winged heron
this channel should just be renamed Discourse
tropic trail
I swear it starts out BfA related
but then we nitpick over little details
and it just derails from there
winged heron
or make a new channel 'the parking lot'
daring venture
Is it true malfurion n tyrande have an elf adopted daughter
uncut vault
strange falcon
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/419964105940795404/432115918001274911/WoWScrnShot_040718_115315.jpg i got more amazing sights for u
tropic trail
So I has a question
I think I asked this before but I cannot remember but is Zandalari trolls getting paladins? I can't remember.
ruby star
No ones knows yet, but it hasn't been confirmed or denied yet I believe
hollow dock
It hasnt been confirmed or denied. The only information that we do know is that the Zandalari paladins do lose their Loa of Light sometime in the War campaign. Zandalari have also been datamined at the moment to not include the paladin class and no zandalari paladin mount has been revealed. The latter two are subject to change as we are getting the Zandalari later on in the expansion.
uncut vault
And if the DID are anything to go by, the initial classes were probably PH
hollow dock
it's a possibility there's no denying that.
ruby star
Yeah
jade basalt
Most of the Zandalari prelates lose their power. Some of them kept them (though the high prelate finds it suspicious), so technically there's still a chance.
ruby star
I mean who knows, we're still in alpha so stuff could change drastically
hollow dock
INdeed. the possibility is there.
ruby star
tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Zandalar paladins happen
ruby star
yep
hollow dock
Again, the possibility exists.
dense plover
if they do, they will almost definitely add a quest involving them finding the light again
rich apex
(A month or two soon, anyways)
Oh, wait
Zandas aren't out at launch
So, classes aren't confirmed until 7.1 PTR 😛
And it does seem quite likely that there will be a quest for restoring the prelate's power, yes
tulip sun
8.1, lol
tulip sun
I would be very sad if we had to go back to 7.1
rich apex
I've got all my Legion reps done, I don't care if we need them for future Allied Races 😛
hollow dock
Inb4 at 9.4 they announce resetting the patche numbers because two digits on the patches is to confusing for people and so need a squash
steel venture
It'd be likely that during the Zandalari recruitment we could see them try to ressurect a cleansed version of Rezan.
Since, it's not impossible to do for Loa and he's a very important Zandalari loa.
rich apex
As people have noted, it's kind of a dick move to explicitly show Zanda paladins as NPCs
But 'lol they lost their powers, no more paladins ever'
(As opposed to Prelate-Paladins only appearing once in Isle of Thunder and then never again)
steel venture
Which is why I assume there will be a way to ressurect Rezan, as he's more important than just paladins though.
He's written as a protector of fallen kings, yadayada.
hollow dock
Oh like the Human druids? How about the Dark Rangers and undead elves that have all existed as NPCs for so long?
rich apex
What human druids?
steel venture
Kul Tirans finally give us normal human druids, without the worgen curse attatched.
rich apex
And I am expecting Undead Elves if Allied Races continue into 9.0
Gilnaens only count so much as human
ruby star
I'm also expecting High Elves at some point in the future late BFA or 9.0+
hollow dock
Yet its a dick move to not have Zanda paladins. But nothing else they done is?
steel venture
I still heavily doubt high elves without a complete and utter revamp of how high elven culture behaves and what they look like.
rich apex
I mean, Tyrande in the MoP scenario was a dick move to her character 😛
steel venture
Void elves now have their own distinct culture away from blood elves, and have totally embraced it thus far too.
hollow dock
I dint see a reason for a culture rework. Maybe a look but that extends to blood elves so nothing realpy changes
rich apex
Depends on how much the actually level of whining is about high elves
steel venture
High elves, for all intents and purposes, only work as a backstory to blood elves TBH.
They're bland as hell otherwise.
rich apex
Given everyone claims to speak for the community when they say the DEMAND for high elves is greater than void elves
hollow dock
High elves have been winjed about since vanilla
ruby star
There is massive communtity support for High Elves on EU,US,Asia,RUS and Mmochpaamion forums
steel venture
Since. Seriously, when has the Silver Covenant been interesting?
hollow dock
Their demans is one of the highest in game
rich apex
I will admit high elves have had a decent amount of screentime, for a non player race
So it's a little bit awkward
But I also appreciate the new lore of void elves
steel venture
They're only demanded because high elves are the generic fantasy elf that's the "pretty, pale, blue-eyed and blonde humans with pointy ears."
hollow dock
And yet we arent rioting over then never being placed in but ready to go storm Blizz for zanda paladins
steel venture
Well, the initial datamined classes still aren't set in stone. As DIDs ended up getting priests when it was shown initially that for some reason they wouldn't have 'em.
rich apex
Zanda paladins is indeed a dumb hill to die on
hollow dock
I demand them because I see more than just the generic fantasy elf in them.
rich apex
Then again, paladins are the master class, so
steel venture
But I'm not gonna die on a hill for Zandalari paladins. It'd be an interesting thing to properly ressurect Rezan to allow that though.
ruby star
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762146941 & https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2382861-Silver-Covenant-Allied-Race-Concepts @steel venture here are some great reasons why a lot of us would love High Elves 😄 (also ideas etc)
undone sphinx
anyone know why bliz removed all the magic damage resits from tanks?
steel venture
And actually provide a, "Hey. We helped return one of your gods to his original self again, care to actually join us now? After we like, also nuked G'huun for you?"
hollow dock
Spell shield exists still
AMS exists. Dhs have magical resistance
So do druids and monks.
steel venture
Mark of Ursol was removed a while ago.
hollow dock
Any tanks Im missing?
steel venture
not like Guardian druids aren't unkillable behemoths but magic damage can nuke them pretty badly.
undone sphinx
i am asking in general they are all getting HUGE magic damage resistance nerfs
hollow dock
I dont see where. :v
undone sphinx
like ams going from 30% to 7% hp
hollow dock
Yea to scale better with the squashed stats
undone sphinx
and sor on palas losing all their magic damage redcution
tulip sun
Really? Druids??
tulip sun
They are pulling this stuff out of their ass.
undone sphinx
are they chaning bosses to have less magic damage output?
hollow dock
Theyre scaling down -everything- because everything is getting scaled down.
steel venture
.. huh? @tulip sun
undone sphinx
or are they being laszy and using magic damage as a tank killer now
hollow dock
No. Theyre just retuning the game for the lower stats
undone sphinx
?
stoic vortex
Hey guys, I've figured out who will be dying their third death.
steel venture
If you're talking about Kul Tiran druids you do realize that Kul Tirans were once Gilneans, right?
undone sphinx
% nerfs scale
so a 30% to 8% is a super nerf as its not a numbers nerf but a scaling nerf
hollow dock
Yes because they dont want AMS to be half your health bar
steel venture
In BFA.
tulip sun
I read s thread and such about high elf druids
undone sphinx
i get that but a % scale is a 1:1 scale
tulip sun
They are trying to turn them into wood elves.or.something
undone sphinx
so if you have 30% at 5mill hp its same as 30% at 5k hp
hollow dock
High elves used to have lore for then to have nature connections
undone sphinx
assuming ofcorse the incoming damage is being down scaled
steel venture
High elf druids were from the RPG, and actually---Using old RPG themes to make playable high elves a mixture of night elven and blood elven culture would be a nice take to make them distinct.
undone sphinx
what i want to know is why bliz are doing a 22% nerf
hollow dock
But later got expanded on as specifically using pure arcane to manipulate the nature around them.
tulip sun
The high elves are blue blood elves. They are not all rangers like the wind runners.
vocal sparrow
Blood Elves and High elves still do have nature connections, rangers use nature magic
stoic vortex
Alleria is dying her third death guys. She has dialog proving this.
hollow dock
Its a red herring Lilith
vocal sparrow
There was a sharp divide between the natural magic using Rangers and the Arcane using Magisters back in BC
steel venture
Lilith.
The Sundering, the Cataclysm, the Sword.
The third death is obviously Azeroth.
hollow dock
Three deaths of Azeroth
vocal sparrow
It just hasn't been brought up much because the horde as a whole needs the Blood Elves' magic more then they do the rangers
steel venture
It's literally why BFA has a ton of old god shit in the background of it.
hollow dock
Which is funny considering the ramgers were used heavily for the amani and zandalari incursions in their land
steel venture
It's the one quote form Ilgynoth that became PAINFULLY obvious after the final Legion cinematic.
stoic vortex
We don't know if Azeroth dies from the sword, however
steel venture
...
hollow dock
Its a metaphorical death
steel venture
Azeroth didn't die from the Sundering or the Cataclysm either.
vocal sparrow
BFA actully means "Battle to save Azaroth the titan"
steel venture
But the world was rended and torn apart.
hollow dock
NOTHING of the old gods is literal
steel venture
It's. A. Metaphor.
Like how the "End Time" wasn't literally the "end of time" it was "The end of all mortals know."
hollow dock
Yshaarj is called a black goat eith seven eyes
steel venture
And Nyalotha is a "black forest."
hollow dock
Wait we dont know if thats confirmed
stoic vortex
You're right, and Alleria hasn't died literally either.
She's one of only two characters that this could fit
stoic vortex
Besides the dreadlord
hollow dock
The titan spirit of Azeroth
And Jaina is not a dreadlord. It was a joke theory
Stop giving it any sort of attention
vocal sparrow
Ascended Joke given she got a Dread Lord skin in Heros
dense plover
it was jesse cox making a joke
stoic vortex
Jaina, Azeroth, and Alleria could all fit the three deaths.
hollow dock
Its not funny anymore
hollow dock
People keep taking it seriously
dense plover
the three deaths is either azeroth or alleria
vocal sparrow
Slyvanas could fit too if it wasn't for the fact that she's already had her 3rd death back in cata
dense plover
¯_(ツ)_/¯
stoic vortex
Jaina's first death was Arthas turning evil
hollow dock
Why is that her first death and not her killing her father or rhonin dying?
dense plover
nah
stoic vortex
So there's literally three things this could reference.
dense plover
maybe?
theramore for sure
it broke her
but i dont think she meets the three deaths compared to azeroth or alleria
hollow dock
Rhonin died because of her. She lost her first apprentice to and thats what really broke her
Oh and Garrosh making the Sunreavers betray dalaran
dense plover
isnt that theramore though?
hollow dock
Thats another 'death'
dense plover
i dont think two things from the same event count as two 'deaths'
hollow dock
Yea but she doesnt go full angsty angry until she sees the gnomes body poof to dust and see the horde looting
hollow dock
But why wouldnt everything else shes apart of also be that? They had just as much an impact on her character.
stoic vortex
Jaina didn't kill her daddy
hollow dock
Shes the reason he died
dense plover
her having her father killed was not as big as theramore
it did not hurt her as much
hollow dock
I didnt say it was. I said it had an impact on her character.
stoic vortex
Arthas leaving her and going evil had more of an impact then her father's death
dense plover
^
hollow dock
Each of these deaths are supposed to be impacts. Much like Alleria.
dense plover
alleria's things are huge though
hollow dock
Betraying your family isnt impactful
dense plover
in each one she almost loses herself
hollow dock
Ok
dense plover
for azeroth, each one rends a massive tear in the planet
these arent just impactful
they are extremely serious and could actually kill the person they affect
hollow dock
Guilt wouldnt do that?
hollow dock
So the crimes shes commited and now facing arent deadly to her?
dense plover
see?
now you are taking a thing
and extrapolating
i dont see Jaina returning to theramore and being banished as a third death
its not even close
hollow dock
I ask for multiple view points to see if each actually holds up.
dense plover
it doesnt make her hate kul tiras
steel venture
Okay but seriously:
Alleria's deaths aren't the "Three deaths."
hollow dock
I mever said it was.
steel venture
We have all the old god shit coming out because of the fact that Azeroth is bleeding to death.
dense plover
well yeah
steel venture
And she's been at poor health for a WHILE.
hollow dock
Yes. The crimes of getting her father killed. That isnt deadly to her, since you had said each of these has to put them on risk of death
stoic vortex
We also have Old Gods waiting for the moment for Alleria wants to turn.
dense plover
it has to push them and change them forever
her fathers death didnt change her personality
steel venture
Sundering fucked her up, Cataclysm fucked her up, Sword fucked her up.
(also 70% vital stability =/= Azeroth's overall mental state, which is what the Old Gods go after.)
Azeroth literally is panicking and screaming, she's losing her mind.
stoic vortex
I think the Sword isn't really what we're looking for. It's too obvious.
dense plover
old gods dont just mentally corrupt titans
they physically corrupt them
physical corruption is at a max of 30%
she isnt dying from old gods
she is dying from a giant fucking sword
which we are going to remove the corruption of
and then we go to visit the room from before in that scholazar scenario
but its going to be destroyed
and stuff will happen
hollow dock
I mean. She would also be dying from the old god corruption and the stress we have been inducing upon her. Stress can kill.
terse patrol
Doki Doki Azeroth Club.
dense plover
and also, she is stable prior to the sword
hollow dock
And her heart has irregularly been beating.
dense plover
the % stable vitals was given
hollow dock
Thats not really stable peach
dense plover
the irregularities were removed when we got rid of the nightmares
its even a voice line
dense plover
she was irregular because she was scared
like a normal person
when you get scared and your heart beats fast
hollow dock
Thats faster beating. But the specific condition isnt from fear
steel venture
That wasn't a normal heartbeat, not even a scared one.
What we heard was a heart murmur.
hollow dock
^
dense plover
thats a good point
steel venture
A heart murmur = something is wrong. Very wrong.
dense plover
well
sometimes heart murmurs are just something wrong
it doesnt have to be very wrong
also
hollow dock
And this sword can only exacerbate the condition.
steel venture
Someone with a murmur could look stable until suddenly they have a heart attack and die.
dense plover
we have 0 clue how titan biology works
so making assumptions here is a bit impossible
hollow dock
We can assume, since it has a human condition, that the biology is similar to that of a human
hollow dock
We didnt say she is
dense plover
but the sword, yes, could make it worse. i agree
im really curious how much lore about this we will get
stoic vortex
You lietrally where though Vris
dense plover
^
stoic vortex
literally
hollow dock
Where have I said her irregular heartbeat is killing her?...
hollow dock
'I mean. She would also be dying from the old god corruption and the stress we have been inducing upon her. Stress can kill.'
'And her heart has irregularly been beating.'
Do you mean these statements?
dense plover
"I mean. She would also be dying from the old god corruption and the stress we have been inducing upon her. Stress can kill."
yes
that
it felt like you were saying it could kill her directly
which you later clarified
to explain that it wouldnt by itself
hollow dock
Yes to further expand on the stress and old god corruption further exacerbating her condition we left her in
dense plover
but with the sword it could get worse and kill her
hollow dock
I have a heart murmur myself. :v its closed significantly since I was a kid but it was always hung on my head for being a reason of early death if I wasnt careful.
Irregular heart beating can kill when you have such things as what Azeroth is going through. Wont do it in its own and sorry for accidently implying that.
stoic vortex
Either way, Alleria hasn't been eliminated from the list of people Ill'gynoth could have been talking about.
That being said, Jaina is somewhat probable, and Sylv is very highly unlikely.
hollow dock
Id wager shes only gone through two. But my argument for her not being the subject is this
Old gods are already freed.
It cant by sylv because shes already died more than three times.
stoic vortex
As you yourself said, the old gods were talking metaphorically. Only two deaths have really counted towards changing her however
hollow dock
Her dying and become a banshre
stoic vortex
Her first death, and her suicide
stoic vortex
The dying, becoming a banshee, and taking over the Forsaken counts as one death
Her becoming warchief hasn't really done much
hollow dock
It doesnt happen in one go.
And I would say her becomign warchief has shifted her personality drastically
stoic vortex
I wouldn't.
She just has more resources and doesn't need to hide things as much as she did
hollow dock
She cares for the entire horde when she hasnt showed any care for it.
dense plover
also she threw herself off icecrown
stoic vortex
She's only pretending to care, tbh
hollow dock
We coubted tjat peacg
dense plover
that was a literal; death
hollow dock
Peach*
hollow dock
I say shes jad 4 personality shifts in total
stoic vortex
I say she's had two.
hollow dock
Her becoming a banshee, her taling over the Forsaken, Her suicide, her becoming warchief.
stoic vortex
Her becoming a banshee and her suicide were the two deaths.
steel venture
sylvanas has already like, died three times if we're going on this now
intial death
her sucide
godfrey shooting her in the head
everyone forgets she got her skull blasted open
stoic vortex
The Forsaken and her becoming warchief are just the two that don't really signal any metaphorical or literal changes in personality.
Remember, she used to be Ranger-General of Silvermoon.
hollow dock
She began caring for a people. She became a bit of an isolationist when she took over the forsaken seeing that she couldnt rely on her old people
stoic vortex
Again, where are you getting this? She's undead. She can't really care for people.
The Forsaken to her were a means to killing Arthas, and the Horde and Forsaken are a means to staying out of hell.
hollow dock
Look to Witcher and Geralt. Witchers dont feel love like you or O do, but he has a primal need to protect Yennefer. Sylvanas exhibits the same primal need of protection over the Forsaken and her sister Veressa
stoic vortex
I've never played Witcher.
Sylv had a need to protect Veressa during War Crimes, but Golden put a stop to it when Veressa spoiled the plot to end Garrosh once and for all.
hollow dock
Veressa remembered she had kids. that's why she spoiled it all. She was all onboard with it until ya know.
Kids.
stoic vortex
Actually, Vereesa didn't know that Sylv was planning to kill her.
So I'd say as of this argument Sylv hasn't been eliminated as thoroughly as we all thought she had.
hollow dock
I personally do believe so but respect your opinion otherwise.
stoic vortex
Now, back to Alleria.
There's the whole "everyone thought I had died on Draenor", and the fallen Naaru slamming into her face as she makes the Oh hell, what did I just get myself into... face.
hollow dock
I'd argue that her parting on dreanor is shift 1, her finding Locus Walker to be shift 2 (Maybe more of a reaffirmation of who she is in the wake of the Void), her absorbing the Naaru to be shift 3 and then leading the void elves to be shift 3.5.
terse patrol
ehhhh
stoic vortex
I think her absorbing the Naaru was shift 2.5, and leading the Velves was shift 2.75. Becoming a leader doesn't bring a whole shift
terse patrol
@hollow dock Alleria says herself, her being lost on Draenor was 1, and absorbing the Naaru 2.
hollow dock
Id argue becoming a leader does, or at the very least leads to, that.
terse patrol
I think Vereesa’s death will be 3
stoic vortex
Vereesa is confirmed to die in the pre-patch?
hollow dock
Its the running theory that the elf we see next to Sylvanas is Vereesa but it very well can be this new sentinel we see in the CE written drama
stoic vortex
Well, I have the CE preordered the day it came out, so we'll see the week of the 14th.
stoic vortex
How?
hollow dock
dense plover
Alleria has said she feels like she has died twice
so i would say we cant say she has died more than that
hollow dock
Are you always aware of your personality shifting?
hollow dock
So do we assume Alleria is aware of her own personality shifting?
stoic vortex
Yes.
hollow dock
Well alright why bother
terse patrol
Getting a cool new Night Elf character would be nice.
hollow dock
so it can't be azeroth
dense plover
its definitely something you can be aware of
hollow dock
like ever.
hollow dock
How? We dont know what her personality is at all.
We can't tell if she's changed emotionally to fit the bill we've made.
terse patrol
So, hopefully we see some more new characters
stoic vortex
Sounds like Malfurion decided to go out the way of Varian, like a badass
dense plover
its pretty vague
hollow dock
because half of the time we're talking literal and hte other half we're talking about emotional
dense plover
for azeroth its definitely sunderring and such
for alleria she defined it
she said it was the two huge tragedies she faced
"Sometimes I feel that I have already died twice. Once when we were presumed lost on Draenor, and again when gripped by the shadow of the fallen naaru."
stoic vortex
We are agreed then? It could be Alleria?
hollow dock
Im just not going to bother anymore.
stoic vortex
I feel Azeroth could be a red herring, but so could Alleria and Sylvanas
hollow dock
I personally feel it is Azeroth because of just about every hint dropped about it through Legion and then showing it in BFA.
stoic vortex
Here's the thing. We totally got blindsided by the whole faction conflict. It could happen again.
hollow dock
I dont see what the faction conflict as to do with it
stoic vortex
I'm keeping my options open.
hollow dock
Because we're stillg etting a lot of old god stuff
stoic vortex
Uldir? Yes. Other old god stuff? Questionable.
stoic vortex
We don't exactly know who the sea priests worship
hollow dock
We know its not N'zoth
"At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming." like the full quote, along with the fact that Xala'tath tells us N'zoths prison is weakening and that he is almost free as we're going to Argus, and that we know the titan facilities go haywire when Azeroth gets attacked and her panic attacks ensue.
And with the fact that it is N'zoths forces leading the charge, we know that after Uldir we will be fighting Azshara and she is this expansions Gul'dan
karmic ridge
it's definitely alleria, or they want us to think it as a red herring
hollow dock
Like
karmic ridge
when they keep bringing up the deaths
karmic ridge
and she specifically mentions two deaths, and she's void/old god related
no the deaths keep coming up in prophecies
karmic ridge
i remember seeing a mention somewhere else
hollow dock
At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming.
This is the exact prophecy
stoic vortex
There was a mention from that dreadlord Sylv had a crush on until Wrath
hollow dock
That had nothing to do with the Old Gods or this specific prophecy.
karmic ridge
did you listen to the audio drama with her, vris?
stoic vortex
It might
karmic ridge
she self-prophesizes there her eventual fall to the void
hollow dock
" So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late.
It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you."
karmic ridge
iirc
karmic ridge
the shattered mask = the forsaken sign, that's definitely sylvanas there
hollow dock
What happens is Alleria sees every possible future that can happen.
She deems them all as lies.
stoic vortex
All but one
hollow dock
The void sees all possibilities as truth.
stoic vortex
The one she glimpses as truth came from using the Light and Void.
hollow dock
Indeed. And it wasn't of her falling to the void. She admits that it could happen, but that she wouldn't let it happen.
karmic ridge
thing is that one is dropped next to two futures that did happen
She saw herself walking upon the surface of another world. One filled with demons. One she had only heard about. Argus.
Blink.
She stood in front of the emerald star and felt its terrible warmth on her face. It reached out to her, begging for help.
Blink.
She saw herself stepping off a cliff, falling into an infinite darkness, smiling all the way. She saw the peace in her own eyes.
hollow dock
All possibile truths the void showed her
dense plover
^
hollow dock
but several lines after that, she deems them all as lies.
karmic ridge
two of those three truths were true
dense plover
void shows all possible truths
she also can sort of see the path she needs to take
because she balances void and light
karmic ridge
i have a feeling that that third moment is going to happen, or it's going to be something that is about to happen and is stopped at he last second
hollow dock
^
dense plover
and it would be interesting to see what it actually is
because im fairly sure the third one is a metaphor
hollow dock
Remember, the void lords, and by extension the Old Gods, see across all timelines.
Every possibility is open to them.
dense plover
^
hollow dock
There is a timeline where Alleria accepts her fate and falls to darkness, there is a timeline where she kills her own son. There is a timeline where she stood at argus. There is a timeline for each of these.
But none of these were -her- timeline
stoic vortex
Standing on Argus and and Argus begging for help both happened in -this- timeline, and Alleria has accepted that she will eventually turn batshit crazy willingly.
hollow dock
She's accepted the possibility. She may very well fall to it, but she will still use this power to fight for her future and that of Arator.
stoic vortex
And that of the Alliance.
hollow dock
and of the alliance yes.
karmic ridge
oh yeah ok so
the repeating prophecy i was misremembering
i saw her self prophecy of falling off the cliff
then the cultist in sithilus has this
Today the smoke rose from my campfire and took form.
A shepherd, cloaked in the shadows of her past, beloved by a flock of blind sheep.
She guided them over a cliff. Even as they crashed upon the rocks, they never doubted her.
The crows grew fat upon sheep flesh. Her laughter echoed all around.
again it could be alleria or sylvanas
hollow dock
to me, it sounds like Sylvanas.
karmic ridge
but at the same time
the cliff
the shadows
the flock
both sylvanas and alleria
a weird paralell
hollow dock
Both could yes, but. The last line.
karmic ridge
i can see that working for both if alleria gets void-maddened
hollow dock
Her laughter echoed all around.
Sylvanas would happily lead her own into the pits if it meant the greater good for her.
karmic ridge
or possessed or something
hollow dock
But something to also note: that had already happened.
karmic ridge
both alleria and sylvanas have 'died' multiple times
like i feel like they may be trying to set something up here
where both qualify for the prophecies
and they're also sisters
hollow dock
Personally I dont believe that propechy has anything to do with Il'gynoths prophecy
karmic ridge
well it's a series of prophecies about one or more women
hollow dock
For the reasons I stated above for why I think its Azeroth
karmic ridge
who will lead everyone into disaster
so it's easy to assume most of them are referring to one
and they're trying to foreshadow something
hollow dock
in which if we also want to include Varithimas' words
So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job. Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did. It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst.
the alliance one also references Sylvanas as the true darkness closing in around us.
stoic vortex
No, it does not
hollow dock
So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one. When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late. It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.
that is references Sylvanas.
hollow dock
You're going to have to.
stoic vortex
Fine, but your tree will burn and I will let it burn if I have to
hollow dock
You letting it doesn't change the fact that it will lol
karmic ridge
i liked cata sylv as a sort of sympathetic from a certain point of view evil
like if you play through silverpine as an undead
you're 100% with her
dense plover
it definitely is about sylv
but that demon is also insane
and not related to the void
so he could be lying to cause us to betray sylvanas
karmic ridge
i doubt that
sylvanas is either going to have some sort of plot come to a head that somehow makes her chill
which i doubt
or she's going to become raid boss fodder
stoic vortex
Vari'mathras was just being tortured prior to those lines getting dropped.
hollow dock
I wasnt tbh.
karmic ridge
the fact that saurfang actually /refused to leave the custody of the alliance/ when you went to rescue him
hollow dock
Day 1 of WoW, I thought hte forsaken needed to get wiped out.
karmic ridge
means something is gunna happen
karmic ridge
did they change the quest text that much
hollow dock
That's how it's always been asfar as I know
karmic ridge
the first version was 100% a jailbreak for saurfang
karmic ridge
in vanilla the forsaken weren't blatantly evil as a whole to deserve to be wiped out
it's mostly the royal apothecary society that was bad to the bone from day one
hollow dock
I personally believed them to be.
dense plover
i dont think that sylvanas needs to change completely
you can always have change on both sides
karmic ridge
sylvanas changing too wildly i can't see happening
esp after what's happening in bfa
dense plover
and the reason saurfang stays is because sylvanas didnt give him an honorable death
she needs him alive
and he wants to die
karmic ridge
she's throwing the flimsiest excuse of being at all not the bad guy here away
since her plan is apparently to exterminate every last human on all of kul'tiras and raise them all as forsaken
dense plover
not all of kul tiras
we dont know that
we just know about one town
we dont even know the reasons
we have no horde side of the story there
it isnt implemented yet
karmic ridge
if it was just invading the town sure reasons but
the mass reanimation and 'they will all serve me in the end'
dense plover
all we know is she gave orders to wipe everyone there out
karmic ridge
she definitely wants to do more
dense plover
yeah
shes been doing that since she existed
doesnt make her the bad guy neccesarily
makes her evil sure
but not a villain
at least from a horde pov
karmic ridge
look
dense plover
from alliance pov, she is def a villain
karmic ridge
when you're killing civilians in large numbers
entirely to reanimate them
you're crossing a line even for the horde
karmic ridge
they're civilians
dense plover
we know the alliance thinks that is the only reason
dense plover
you arent listening
from the alliance perspective, yes you are right
but we have no horde perspective
karmic ridge
the horde perspective is still
killing civilians
and then reanimating them to help murder their families
dense plover
we have no idea why she is targetting brannadan
meager warren
Horde perspective or no, killing civilians is never okay
meager warren
and it's not okay for them either
karmic ridge
look i'm a horde guy to the end normally
i am even a sylvanas apologist
but there's no spinning this one
stoic vortex
Alliance hasn't killed citizens in ages
meager warren
I'm pro-Horde but anti-Sylvanas
dense plover
i think what she is doing is viscious and evil
but we dont know her reasoning behind it
karmic ridge
camp taurajo was more a disaster than a deliberate attempt at genocide
dense plover
yes she plans to raise them
karmic ridge
she's at war right now
meager warren
vicious*
dense plover
but that doesnt mean she is going there for that reason
karmic ridge
kul'tiras is an ally which is joining the alliance and could prevent her total victory
hollow dock
Taurajo was more so the horde not wanting to leave than the alliance mercilessly slaughtering everyone
hollow dock
like Sylvanas is doing
hollow dock
We've gone over this Peach. The commander in charge with its sacking did not purposefully try to kill Civvies
karmic ridge
taurajo was a fuck up without malice
karmic ridge
it wasn't a sanctioned genocide
karmic ridge
look
dense plover
WE DONT KNOW WHY SHE IS ATTACKING BRENNADAM
karmic ridge
a random peon doing a crime without permission
karmic ridge
is not the same thing as a literal letter from your leader telling you to murder children and civilians
dense plover
yes she is doing something bad
hollow dock
Oh stop protecting the woman
dense plover
really bad
karmic ridge
ever
dense plover
but why?
karmic ridge
to kill people and make them murder their family as feral zombies
hollow dock
the note from Sylvanas
dense plover
we dont know if there is more to the plan and the peons were given less orders
there may be more to the story
stoic vortex
Peach, you have committed crimes against both the Horde and Alliance and their peoples. What say you in your defense?
dense plover
drawing a final conclusion from a quest in the alpha is ignorant
meager warren
How would it benefit Sylvanas to lie in the note?
dense plover
it is a one-sided quest
with one side's view of a conflict
and no other context for it
meager warren
well, gee. i wonder why
dense plover
when the horde war campaign questline for stormsong is added
dense plover
then we will know what is going on there
karmic ridge
i mean i'm sorry
dense plover
no
karmic ridge
but this is hard to twist into
karmic ridge
'actually you see the children here were secretly plotting against the horde'
dense plover
you arent fuicking listening
stop for one second
read the following sentences plz
plz?
meager warren
how about you read it?
karmic ridge
you keep saying that the horde is going to pull magic quest text out of its ass
hollow dock
Essentially
karmic ridge
that justifies this
but there is literally nothing they could write
that makes this less bad
hollow dock
Peach is saying there might be a reason for Sylvanas to be commiting war crimes
but that doesn't make it OK
hollow dock
which makes me wonder why we care about the reasoning if it doesn't make the war crimes OK
dense plover
The alliance player gets a piece of paper with orders. These are peons sent to kill people. If sylvanas sent peons to kill people, no way in hell would she give them all the full point of being there. But as players, the horde will almost certainly get the rest of this story
hollow dock
the children were like
meager warren
it doesn't matter if the children are fucking demon hunters
karmic ridge
look i'm a horde guy to the end
hollow dock
Double cultists
karmic ridge
but this is legit us being a bad guy
meager warren
they're children
dense plover
yes
karmic ridge
it's part of a larger plan, yes
dense plover
horde is bad there
hollow dock
But we know it was signed byt he dark lady herself
dense plover
im not disagreeing
karmic ridge
so it's like 'ok kill this entire town and reanimate them as forsaken and i will use this as a part of an even larger evil plan'
just because she has a bigger plan
doesn't make this step of the plan any less bad..
dense plover
im saying that conclusively saying the entire reason to go to brennadam as just raising forsaken is fucking ignorant
stoic vortex
Me not that kind of orc
hollow dock
Yea
dense plover
she gave peons orders
dense plover
she would not give them the actual goal for being there
meager warren
what you said is that it's okay for her to kill children
hollow dock
stop food production in the area?
dense plover
she keeps secrets
hollow dock
She gives fake orders
meager warren
she's almost 80% garrosh
dense plover
^
hollow dock
to make the alliance hate the horde more
karmic ridge
however the ends don't justify the means
karmic ridge
she could have the most noble goal in the world
world fuckin peace
and she's still being evil
dense plover
im not saying she is being good
karmic ridge
because of what she's doing there
meager warren
you're also awful, peach. 😘
dense plover
i agree she is being evil
hollow dock
You're defending her is the thing
stoic vortex
Sylv is hitting critical mass when it comes to becoming a raid boss.
meager warren
o rly
hollow dock
Ok
dense plover
ive said it four times
meager warren
what's she there for then
hollow dock
she's still killing people
stoic vortex
SHUT UP MY TTS NEEDS TIME TO CATCH UP
hollow dock
that's what we are saying
dense plover
we have none
karmic ridge
'ok she's not there JUST to raise forsaken, she also wants it out of hte way so she can move her armies in to attack a more important target, but in the meanwhile kill women and children'
ok i feel exactly zero different than before
hollow dock
^
stoic vortex
^
meager warren
http://prntscr.com/j28jv3
what is she there for if not for this?
dense plover
but we dont know if thats why she is there
we have no horde story
we have a single set of orders
hollow dock
The context doesn't matter peach
dense plover
given to peons
hollow dock
she's still slaughtering people
dense plover
yes it does
karmic ridge
look
dense plover
what if the village is guarding an artifact of great power
karmic ridge
hitler may have done the genocide
hollow dock
Context doesn't change this
dense plover
bam
hollow dock
at all
dense plover
different context
karmic ridge
but we don't know why hitler was doing the genocide
hollow dock
She's still slaughtering innocent people
dense plover
yes we do
meager warren
context doesn't make it okay, peach
dense plover
he hated jews
hollow dock
rather than attackign and letting htem run
karmic ridge
we only have some of his reasons
dense plover
we have orders from both sides
meager warren
are you seriously using hitler to justify this?
karmic ridge
we only have these things written by him
karmic ridge
just like the things sylvanas wrote
dense plover
we have one order
hollow dock
Peach.
dense plover
given to fucking nobodies
karmic ridge
we also have previous precedent
dense plover
okay
hollow dock
which is the slaughter of people
karmic ridge
for her killing people to raise into forsaken