but I suppose without that extra power gul'dan wouldn't have an advantage over khadgar
#beta-ptr-spoilers
heavy cairn
hollow dock
Gul'dan is capable of overpowering, but at great cost of his own well being
scarlet pulsar
heavy cairn
my guess is that kairoz did one of these things:
- it's not actually an AU but some sub-dimension that was dragged from an AU into the MU (and perhaps superposed on outland, to explain why the dark portal could be rerouted to it, why time still passes on Azeroth while we are in Draenor despite the presence of time travel or something similar, and why it's easy to go between Azeroth and Draenor)
- it's an AU, and kairoz just made a permanent bond between its Draenor and our Azeroth (assuming infinite universes, it doesn't have to be time travel, just an alternate universe that started a few decades later than the main one, explaining why time still passes on Azeroth and combined with the permanent bond, explains why it's so easy to go between Azeroth and Draenor)
terse patrol
Kairoz basically created a new version of Draenor.
hollow dock
no it is an AU. Kairoz didn't make it
I dont understand why no one knows this, but WoW has an indefinite amount of timelines to it. Just ours is the Prime Timeline. The one where nothing can be changed.
WoD just explores a differing Timeline to our own that's deffered enough to give Kairoz, and to a lesser extent Wrathion, a much better Horde to work with. Just Garrosh threw a wrench in that plan and we had to clean up the mess.
languid yoke
will wrathion ever appear again
heavy cairn
I know kairoz didn't make it, he just linked it or brought something from it
and I know there are infinite ones (at least with the info they gave us, though it's unclear why prime azeroth is better than other azeroths)
hollow dock
He found it, and like all bronze dragons, brought Garrosh to it. Very possibly with the knowledge of how to link our Dark Portal to Theirs as the plan all along was to make the Iron horde fight the Legion.
Which Garrosh took when hekilled Kairoz and decided to make his own destiny.
heavy cairn
ah, I almost forgot about our previous travel to alternate timelines
so yea nothing was brought between universes
hollow dock
The only thing that you can argue is a bit of a hole is the Dragon Soul, but Im fairly certain it was brought back to a proper point where the Horde would find it and use it against Alex in the second war.
In which there is an instance where physical things from a seperate timeline has infected our own; Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects.
Blackmoore is back as an Agent of the Infinite Flight to hunt and kill Thrall before he can convince Alex back to the fight against the Hammer and find Nozdormu. That Blackmoore is killed but not before Thrall finds out that in the timeline the Agent came from, Thrall died as a child with his parents and Blackmoore broke the Alliance with his own orcish army.
Arthas fled and Married Jaina to make Theramore and never became the Lich king. That Azeroths all sorts in a pickle tbh.
heavy cairn
huh interesting
uncut vault
Nozdormu says at the end of Dragon Soul that he returned it to its proper place
hollow dock
Alright great. I didn't know if he did or if someone else did so.
Which actually is a bit of a self-fufilling prophecy. Because of its use against Deathwing and the dragons infusing more of their essence into the Relic, it shows why it had so much power in it but was able to easily shatter.
uncut vault
those faction name changes are interesting
I expected the Alliance ones to just be the houses and earning favor with them
thats a NICE moonkin
hollow dock
so wait they did get dinosaur forms
Those lyin bastards
now I will have to roll horde.
uncut vault
tfw people kept saying "zandalari arent going to get other animals for their forms, thatd be favoritism"
wild pewter
Alliance better get a druid race now with badass forms
tropic trail
those high arrakkoa reskins?
wild pewter
With some tweaks
final vault
No Zandalari Kitty 😦
untold fractal
I can't wait for the Zandalari trolls its gonna be so bad ass
uncut vault
since Im certain these are due to community demand
strange falcon
i'm torn between HM tauren moose travel form(best thing in the world) and high arakkoa moonkin
because who cares about bear and cat form when u got mage tower skins
uncut vault
Definitely making my troll gal into a Zandalari
just cause of that flight form
Never gonna use turtle because harambear will always be better but
damn thats nice
uncut vault
gonna be the first time since they added glyph of stars that Im not using it
tulip sun
What if they did this with all races eventually?
uncut vault
they currently use the normal tauren one
tulip sun
That tank form!!
strange falcon
@tulip sun i'm sorry friend,but nothing will EVER come close to steroidbear as a tank form
that's a proven fact
and moose travel form is too good for just a moonkin form as i rarely play balance
sharp bluff
Dafire what do you mean Moose travel form? My Highmountain druid just leans over and walks on all fours lol
dense plover
oh my god they made all of the druid forms
now we just need cat form
this is awesome
they said they were only going to do travel form
and now this
YAY
uncut vault
Was probably because we wanted it that they made them
sharp bluff
mmmm those colors
I may just ditch my highmountain Druid for those forms
no big floppy chicken feet
gaunt inlet
Didn't they already show the cat form as a raptor? Pretty much the best druid forms ever @dense plover
sharp bluff
travel was raptor
hollow dock
@uncut vault that's what BLIZZARD said. Not just random people.
gaunt inlet
Doh
hollow dock
Cat's gonna be sabertooth.
gaunt inlet
I thought cat form was raptor was pretty hyped about that 😢
gaunt inlet
Either would be dope
tulip sun
Missions are back
I am excited, I personally like them. Collecting followers.
I was hoping for a ship with your own crew, but still good :]
uncut vault
I know they said theywere just doing travel forms, that's my point. They probably made them because the community had a demand for more forms.
tulip sun
Oh?
hollow dock
Then I and the community demand racial focused druid forms for everyone
uncut vault
Which is fair, and I hope they respond to in the future
also they removed that Horde base in Stormsong again
hollow dock
which tbh is probably why they didn't want to.
uncut vault
Which is weird, because this build also added graveyards for the Alliance base on Zandalar
dense plover
so this is a thing
that island under the water wasnt there before
might be planned for a patch
like naga raise an island?
hollow dock
Maybe.
hollow dock
that we know of.
dense plover
so clearly it is for something
hollow dock
It could also just be foundation for something later.
tulip sun
Interesting
dense plover
yeah thats what im saying pretty much
also, horde base in stormsong is gone
one zandalari ship became 2
tulip sun
I like how the we invade each others island after the two main stories tho
dense plover
and stormsong seriously got a lot of work
tulip sun
Who will be the followers/champions for the new missions I wonder...
zinc sandal
It looks like Zandalarized Arakkoa form
tulip sun
What is the sustained stuff then?
Datamined*
It is pretty obvious that it involves missions
dense plover
I went through the trouble
lots of little changes as well
but the entire top half has been touched up and changed
meager warren
https://www.engadget.com/2013/02/10/know-your-lore-the-zandalari/
how factually correct is this article
strange falcon
i think nobbel is more factually correct than any article online
but then again maybe he hasnt done any vids on zandalari yet
meager warren
what's nobbel
zinc sandal
YouTuber
zinc sandal
Expert in lore
dense plover
so much magic!!!
honest ledge
dolphin
dense plover
article is trash
its written before chronicles
so its missing a ton of stuff by default
meager warren
if it's on Youtube, that's why i don't know it
and ok
meager warren
u telling me that's not Black Adam but as a dolphin?
dense plover
maybe its an azerite dolphin?
hollow dock
Arson
dense plover
maybe we are finally getting the heart of azeroth system in the build?
hollow dock
Nobbel87 on youtube and Twitch reads directly from all canon that is known to keep us up to date on shit we dont wanna read
He makes incredibly accurate videos that seperates the fact from all the headcanons we place in. :v
(so much so that Blizzard has shown love to him. It has the blizz seal of approval)
meager warren
the reason i don't watch Youtube much is because the captions on there are awful and i need captions because i can't hear everything
hollow dock
Ah I see.
meager warren
ye
hollow dock
Well because Nobbel does have a thick accent, he does have actually written subs on his videos. (He draws a very ethnic fanbase so subs are needed)
none of that auto-generated crap
hollow dock
Nobbel87.
meager warren
ty
terse patrol
His accent isn't that bad tho.
Then again, some people are braindead at listening to accents.
tranquil steeple
Idk, some find it easy to understand, and some others don't. Not much can be done about it but put in subtitles (as he have)
meager warren
i find any accent hard to understand, even my own.
😛
tranquil steeple
I just briefly imagined you saying something
and the other person went "can you repeat that?"
then you reply "what? what did I even say?"
meager warren
accurate
hollow dock
I find it easy to understand too. But its still a decently thick accent.
untold fractal
his accent took a little bit to get used to, but after about 10 minutes of listening to it, it becomes easier to understand
tulip sun
Rexxar confirmed fighting for the horde once again
meager warren
wut
hollow dock
He is still Champion of the Horde.
meager warren
oo
meager warren
he appeared in the Hunter Class hall as a companion
tulip sun
When was the last he truly fought with the horde though?
I know he has appeared, but minorly
hollow dock
almost never. He just helps em out every now and then because of Thrall. Ever since he left, Rexxar hasn't found much reason to help out is my understanding.
meager warren
him not fighting for the horde =/= him not appearing.
hollow dock
Especially since Rexxy hasn't really officially been apart of the horde ever. He's always been sort of a mercenary.
tulip sun
He seems to be working with the horde good now, haha
uncut vault
hes literally the champion of the Horde lol
uncut vault
no, he joined the Horde way back in WC3
tulip sun
Let's see some rexxar and misha action
uncut vault
was a big part of his story in TBC
meager warren
geez, Rexxar earned "Champion of the Horde" for helping them out?
The Horde player character should have "God of the Horde" then
uncut vault
his dad was pissed that he joined the Horde
hollow dock
Wc3 I believe is when he was given that title for his aid in settling Orgrimmar.
He just immediately left for the wilds after that.
Good to see he decided to pick his orc side.
meager warren
his dad can screw it
uncut vault
"Rexxar wishes to find more of his people and perhaps one day make peace with his father, Leoroxx, who remains embittered about Rexxar's decision to join the Horde."
meager warren
toxic parenting 101
hollow dock
parenting*
meager warren
it says parenting
uncut vault
he also joins the Stonemaul clan, who are also part of the Horde
tulip sun
He is full blown horde in bfa, haha
uncut vault
"Thrall invited Rexxar to return to Durotar with him, but Rexxar told him that his place was still in the wild but said that he would always be part of the Horde"
tulip sun
I wanna kill some alliance with him
uncut vault
yeah he returned to the wild but hes always been a part of the horde
hollow dock
Old players always return new expac
they then bitch about how everythings shit and then leave
meager warren
I wanna kill some Horde and alliance on one character with him.
Unfortunately, that's never gonna happen. :sad:
tulip sun
I mean like old lore characters
untold fractal
I am particularly excited about the pg island "skirmishes" I can see myself spending hours doing those
tulip sun
I am curious about those advanced ai
hollow dock
Jaina's angels
meager warren
oh, the advanced ai is probably going to be just slightly more irritating to defeat but more or less, it'll be the same thing as what's in Legion
hollow dock
do you need anything else?
meager warren
yes.
Charlie's Angels
hollow dock
Jaina's
angels
That should tell you all you need to know
it's going to be joke teams, reference teams, things like gob squad, the G-team
etc
meager warren
Mogu and Zandalari having been allies at one point is still canon, right?
short smelt
I want to be a Jaina's angel :(
hollow dock
the AI willprobably use a CC move every now and hten but really, no AI is ever 'advanced' in terms of WoW.
That hasn't been removed?
Mogu and Zandalari -are- still allies
Well
Zandalari and the Thunder King
meager warren
if they were "advanced" WoW would lag to shit even more than it already does
hollow dock
Dunno about the rest of the Mogu
meager warren
Mogu allied race confirmed
untold fractal
Im still naivly holding out for murloc allied race. I know seems stupid and pointless but I do love the little bastards
short smelt
that's rather unlikely given that they're not entirely sentient
untold fractal
I know T.T
hollow dock
That's a very sore misconception actually
meager warren
wdym murlocs aren't sentient
hollow dock
Even Brann admits that the Murlocs are A LOT MORE INTELLIGENT than they let on.
untold fractal
maybe "of non-humanoid intellect" is a better description
short smelt
hence entirely
meager warren
agree to disagree
hollow dock
You either are or not sentient. There's no real inbetween.
short smelt
they're certainly not as advanced as the playable races
meager warren
what Vris said
untold fractal
Intelligent enough to build war machines and organize an entire army out of different races and factions
short smelt
their speech is literally gargling
hollow dock
So can the Gnolls
short smelt
not comparably
meager warren
them being "as advanced" or as intelligent as the playable races is irrelevant.
them being able to comprehend the world around them and develop their own language, teach themselves how to swim, create weapons, etc is pretty damn intelligent regardless.
they're sentient.
short smelt
fine they're sentient
hollow dock
there is proof their language can be understood, learned and even spoken
untold fractal
Agreed. But enough to form alliances and understand the complex politics behind it?
short smelt
but I still don't think they qualify for a playable race
hollow dock
They make clans Red.
Oh definately not, they are no where near capable of being a PC race without a major overhaul
untold fractal
Sure, but within their own race, Im talking about outside of their own race. They understand their own customs easily enough, but others?
hollow dock
They war with the crab people, whom are just as intelligent if not more so than them.
meager warren
they're able to differentiate between murloc and non-murloc.
that's pretty complex, politically, if ya ask me
sharp bluff
Are you sure? Murloc suit guy says otherwise
meager warren
^
sharp bluff
Don’t get me wrong I would kill to play as a murloc, but I doubt it lol
short smelt
their idea of the distinction is attack anything that doesn't look like a murloc
untold fractal
I doubt it too but I still hope, naively hope
meager warren
yet they don't attack the guy attempting to cosplay as a murloc and failing
and they don't attack the player, in case of Murky
short smelt
because he looks like one
meager warren
no he doesn't
untold fractal
there are some murlocs you help in Azsuna, so its possible to be friendly with them
sharp bluff
Yep Murky 🍾
meager warren
must be blind
sharp bluff
He is only slightly taller
tulip sun
If you want murlocs, the closest you may get is Jinyu
hollow dock
^
meager warren
i wanna see an entirely water-based expac at some point
tulip sun
How would the females look tho
meager warren
Update Aquatic: WoW Edition
sharp bluff
No water levels please, no one can do those ( example Guild Wars 2)
untold fractal
I wasnt a fan of deepholm, I dont know if I would enjoy an entirely water based expac
short smelt
gw2 did a lot of things miserably badly
untold fractal
though Naga would be a cool allied race if that were to happen
strange falcon
tho naga dont have legs
short smelt
wow might be able to pull off a water expansion
meager warren
have you been to Deepholm, Zepillion?
And they can do better than Deepholm in a new one.
Especially if they make the whole thing water.
So much water you're sick of it. :khadgarface:
untold fractal
so?
strange falcon
that's always the deal breaker
hollow dock
TBH
strange falcon
naga CANT be an allied race,they CAN be a full race if blizz wants to do them
hollow dock
With how Vash'jir was handled
strange falcon
allied races are supposed to take little work
hollow dock
I dont think they ever will do underwatch focused expac
sharp bluff
I avoid underwater like the worgen plague Edgy lol
hollow dock
Dafire, you have to understand, people think 'allied race' means anything is a race.
meager warren
Mogu could be Allied Races to the Zandalari Trolls, maybe
hollow dock
Nah. Mogu dont use any player armor.
meager warren
because they're already allies as it is
hollow dock
Would take new models to actually get that working
meager warren
they need to make new armor models for every actually new race they bring in
hollow dock
Not the Lightforged.
meager warren
...
hollow dock
Not the Void elves.
meager warren
i said actually new
meager warren
Allied Races aren't called subraces tho
hollow dock
??? Akhaari they said that allied races won't stop them from making full races
Theyre literally meant to fill in the gap and provide some extra diversity.
short smelt
they did?
hollow dock
yes
meager warren
yes but they're called allied races
short smelt
I don't listen to everything they say, my bad
uncut vault
you really need only look at Sir Finley Mrrgglton to see that murlocs can be highly intelligent.
meager warren
he is?!
meager warren
hot
meager warren
whacks shush, you
dense plover
He doesn’t have a posh voice in wow
meager warren
wonder if we'll see him return in Kul'Tiras :thonking:
untold fractal
see totally want murloc playable characters
sharp bluff
Only if they get Death Knight lol
meager warren
if they can do worgen playable races, they can do murloc and mogu
hollow dock
They could
but why do murloc when you can do something that already is picking a side in whatever expac you have coming?
untold fractal
ummmmm player demand? >.>
hollow dock
gigglesnort
meager warren
Mogu have picked a side.
It's called Horde
hollow dock
Mogu never picked a side.
meager warren
they're allied with Zandalar
meager warren
and Zandalar is allied with the Horde.
As an extension to that, so are the Mogu
hollow dock
That's not entirely concrete. because it'd be up to the Mogu if they actually want to join the Zandalari
and as it was ZUL'S zandalari that sided with the mogu
meager warren
i feel like, since Lei Shen is dead and the Mogu empire is falling to ruins without him, they'd side with whichever faction would most likely accept them to gain power
That is, Horde.
uncut vault
I mean, it'd be a way to give them the draenei skeleton
hollow dock
Mogu empires been in ruins without him. Hence the Mogu are constantly warring with each other.
uncut vault
I can see it happening.
meager warren
great, so Alliance get one side of the Mogu war and the Horde gets the other
hollow dock
In which, again, it'd be up to the Mogu if they even want to try that
because without Lei-shen
meager warren
without Lei Shen they're lost
hollow dock
they're pretty racist towards themselves and other clans and heavily xenophobic last I checked.
meager warren
they weren't with Zul's Zandalari.
They can survive being around orcs, undead, tauren, etc
hollow dock
they wer.e
uncut vault
they definitely were with the zandalari
hollow dock
Zul's zandalari went to IoT and sided with lei-shen to rebuild that bridge the Zandalari used to have with the Mogu
In which the Mogu had seen the Zandalari as returning slaves
meager warren
they were racist to a group of people that they respected and consistently aided?
k
hollow dock
not really allies.
uncut vault
they didnt respect them, lei shen used them so that he could return if he ever died.
didnt even let them inside the palace
hollow dock
^
uncut vault
"I should thank you for wiping the filth from my doorstep"
hollow dock
Mogu are xenophobic as fuck
meager warren
okay, so all the Mogu npcs can refer to non-mogu player characters as "slave" instead of "[class]" or "[race]" etc
uncut vault
inb4 sylvanas mind controls a mogu leader, all his underlings just think theyre leading the horde
tulip sun
Zandalari boomkin has flying animations, haha
sharp bluff
Playable Mogu would probably make some pandas wary also
meager warren
actually, i think a mogu leader would be better at this point, than Sylvanas
hollow dock
Flap is still a thing Khamnin
uncut vault
it uses the arakkoa skeleton
tulip sun
It is still neat to see
meager warren
Mogu are more up-front and less cowardly than Sylvanas
hollow dock
They're also incredibly xenophobic
tulip sun
I wouldn't say Sylvanas is cowardlu
She just would rather live another die and fight, than to die
meager warren
she consistently sends others into war to die instead of doing it herself
tulip sun
Day*
hollow dock
Sylvanas is not cowardly. She's an archer. she doesn't rush straight to the frontline like a dumbass.
tulip sun
And that
meager warren
archers are cowards
meager warren
if you can't fight with a 1 or 2-hand/ fists, you can't fight for shit
hollow dock
She takes out an entire battlemant herself.
Rallies the horde
yea
she's a coward alright
meager warren
weren't you arguing that she was a coward yesterday?
tulip sun
Vris, we actually agree on this topic xD.
uncut vault
btw, mogu are allied solely with zul in BfA
meager warren
cowards are terrible people
uncut vault
trying to take down rastakhan
hollow dock
All cowards are terrible people yes this is true
tulip sun
Sylvanas arguably is kinda a badass o.o
hollow dock
but not all terrible people are cowards
untold fractal
@tulip sun that is not even an argument, Sylvanas is bad ass
uncut vault
obviously it might be just one clan, but clearly rastakhan wont appreciate the mogu trying to overthrow him
meager warren
i've never seen Sylvanas take a hit for the team
tulip sun
The Mogu do invade Zuldazar
hollow dock
Cough cough. Scourge invasion anyone
How about Silverpine? Where she constantly put herself onto the front.
Invasion of Gilneas?
What about Broken Shore where she was on the frontlines fighting with everyone? How about when she saved Varian's life against an infernal that dropped onto his ship?
meager warren
she survived the Scourge Invasion, alive
She got attacked by a worgen in silverpine and was raised to undeath by her Valkyr. That wasn't taking a hit for the team.
She attacked Genn like a dumbass in Gilneas. That wasn't taking a hit for the team.
She, an archer, was on the frontlines because, again, dumbass.
You got me on that last part tho
meager warren
keep reading pls
hollow dock
She was killed. 100% in each of those scenarios.
except the last 2.
Cowards normally dont die
hollow dock
If theyre stupid then yea
meager warren
like sylv
hollow dock
but Cowards tend to be cowardly and run away
ensuring they aren't at all under threat of death or even harm
tulip sun
Sylvanas is not afraid of running into battle.
untold fractal
True, cowards run, until they decide not to run anymore. Maybe Sylvanas is finally deciding not to run.
meager warren
remember the Orc in Hillsbrad foothills?
the one who's dragon died?
he was as much a coward as anyone but he never ran from battle
sharp bluff
🍿
hollow dock
He didn't run because we gave him courage
tulip sun
Sylvanas decided to live and fight another day, instead of fighting and during.
hollow dock
he'd have run otherwise.
tulip sun
Dieing*
meager warren
Dying*
tulip sun
That is smart, if you all die, your cause is dead
You need everyone you can get
Which is why she doesn't want saurfang to try and die honorably
hollow dock
yet gives him the promise that she'll just raise him when he does die.
Legit. She tells him to go ahead and do it then just leaves.
meager warren
oh yeah, and she thinks she controls anyone just cause she has the title of Warchief.
pffff get in line, ya old lady
tulip sun
She is being rude to saurfang to convince him not to. At least. That's how I took it
hollow dock
I take a look at her words and see this:
"Go ahead, die for all I care. I'll just raise you into undeath, make sure you say hi to your son while you have the chance."
then leaves
tulip sun
It is a little different
meager warren
Saurfang is proving her wrong
hollow dock
We dont even know if that's true and its just wishful thinking
meager warren
as much as she likes to think she controls anyone and even though she has a title of "Warchief," she doesn't control anyone except herself. People can choose to follow her orders but that's still their choice. Not her's.
hollow dock
sure
but no ones saying no to her but saurfang.
So
until more start to do that
she's not proven wrong
meager warren
a group of Forsaken said no to her.
The Shado-Pan would say no to her.
Silvermoon would (probably) say no to her.
But everybody isn't saying no because they're either,
- afraid of her
- doesn't think it's worth it
- doesn't care
- doesn't know that Sylv is a bad Warchief
tulip sun
There is nothing PROVING she is a bad warchief
She has done one hell of a job so far
Better than Vol'jin
And we are talking within the Horde
Obviously other factions would disagree
sharp bluff
I think Silvermoon is fine with her, since she lets them do what they please
At least that is what i took from the Nightborne thing
meager warren
she's a bad warchief because she has no honor.
A "true" warchief of the horde must know honor and that, when someone dies in honor, raising them from death to die dishonorably is probably the worst thing you can do
it's equivalent to pissing on someone's grave irl
untold fractal
some parts of the horde hold honor to a higher standard than others.
the orcs and trolls are not the total of the Horde.
sharp bluff
We have had three warchiefs before her, one lost his powers by forcing the elements to listen to him, one went crazy and almost cost the horde Org, one died to a warlock summon, call her evil all you want (which she is) but the past ones all did stupid stuff man
meager warren
but the tauren know honor, the blood elves know honor (aside from Sylv oddly), the goblins (somewhat) know honor
hollow dock
wha
meager warren
"honor" isn't just in the troll's and orc's vocab
sharp bluff
And do not forget Troll, she knew honor back before she died
untold fractal
knowing honor and holding it higher than any other virtue are different things
sharp bluff
Thrall lost his powers, Grarrosh went crazy, Voljin died
hollow dock
The elements ignored thrall
sharp bluff
But like I said Sylvannis knew honor before a human gutted her soul from her body and forced her to serve him
hollow dock
they abandoned him. Garrosh just went back to what the orcs actually are.
tulip sun
Honor is not what makes a good warchief..
tulip sun
Obviously it helps
meager warren
^
tulip sun
But it is not a done deal if she doesn't have honor.
meager warren
ye, but she's got a shitload of other shit under her belt
sharp bluff
she had it though is what I am trying to get at, she wanted an honorable death but Arthus denied it
Can you blame her for seeing honor as worthless dirt?
when she was denied it
meager warren
even the villians wikia knows Sylv isn't good
hollow dock
sharp bluff
and when forsaken die, they get tormented , never knowing eternal peace
tulip sun
Lets be real guys. Is dying honorably better than surviving to fight for your faction another day?
That is pretty much the conflict between saurfang and sylvanas
sharp bluff
not really, the day doesn't feel right if I don't punt a gnome
meager warren
dying honorably when you're tired of fighting is better than fighting for your faction another day
sharp bluff
I'll take living to fight another day
Death comes easy, living to fight again is hard
meager warren
i'm sure Saurfang would rather spend the rest of his life on a farm but Sylvanas doesn't want him to do that either
sharp bluff
Who knows
meager warren
Saurfang does
sharp bluff
I think Suarfang just wants to die, at least he did in Legion
tulip sun
Oh?
sharp bluff
Warriors questline I think right?
tulip sun
I didn't play a warrior, so I don't know about that
sharp bluff
Horde side warriors
sharp bluff
he was looking to go out in a blaze at the tomb
meager warren
what happens is, Saurfang is still alive
tulip sun
I guess that kinda makes sense.
He is a really old orc, and instead of saying dying of old age, he wants to die fighting.
But Sylvanas still wants him to fight
meager warren
"Yeah, sure. I'll die peacefully on the battlefield. That makes so much sense"
slate ingot
So horde started it again
But they have better questing zones which isn't a shocker in the slightest
sharp bluff
here we go
Varok later traveled to the Broken Shore with a warrior adventurer, believing that he needed to regain his valor after the disastrous battle on the island. Unfortunately, he got shot by a fel cannon mid-air, asking the adventurer to proceed and make them pay. Master Smith Helgar of the Valarjar later sent the warrior adventurer to find Varok and duel him on the Broken Shore as he is believed to be the greatest axe wielder on Azeroth and could be an inspiration to forge
he was trying to regain honor, my mistake
tulip sun
I would not say the Horde started the conflict
hollow dock
I would say they did
tulip sun
What started it was Silithus and Sylvanas' attempted assassination. Sylvanas simply....escalated it
hollow dock
Beucase this all can be traced back to the first war
tulip sun
-points to above statement-
meager warren
which side started the conflict during the first conflict?
hollow dock
The horde
meager warren
so, the horde did it
tulip sun
As a horde player, I feel confident in my faction and the decisions so far. We were attacked, and we need to show our strength.
hollow dock
they were the invaders and alliance retaliated
tulip sun
To the alliance, while I am a tad bias, to them it will seem as though we started it
hollow dock
its been downhill ever since
meager warren
I play horde but i still am not confident in it as long as Sylvanas is warchief
steel venture
so how about them ANKYLOSAUR ZANDALARI
tulip sun
Vris, look at it from a forsaken view.
hollow dock
I look at it from a Horde or Alliance view
steel venture
we need like
unique forms for more races now honestly
hollow dock
either side
tulip sun
Sylvanas is not only getting them to ensure her own future, but theirs as well
sharp bluff
I play horde also, I am fine with Sylvannis, but I am even more confident in Voljinn's words, if you trust Vol, you will believe in the banshee queen
tulip sun
Without the Val'kyr, they are gone as a people
meager warren
HA!
Maybe now you'll take some time to learn the ways of the Horde instead of dissing them
hollow dock
that doesn't change the fact that she's trying to ENSLAVE TITAN CONSTRUCTS
steel venture
can i mention that this proves though that nightborne druids could've been a thing through tel'arn but they DIDNT wanna give us runekitties?
tulip sun
Those titan constructs are not so pure themselves.
zinc sandal
That doesn’t make her actions good or righteous. It’s still a bad thing.
hollow dock
THAT DOESN'T MATTER
meager warren
Khamnin, would you say that to actual slaves irl?
tulip sun
Edgy, what kind of question is that.
hollow dock
Doesn't matter if the Val'kyr had gone to enslave thousands of people, which they didn't, enslaving OUR ALLIES AGAINST THE OLD GODS IS A BAD THING
meager warren
it means, take a think before saying stuff
hollow dock
If Sylvanas' attempt at enslaving the val'kyr is excusable because it was for her people
sharp bluff
I vote Sylvannis, I trust in Voljinn
hollow dock
does that mean everything Arthas did is excusable because it was for his master and people?
tulip sun
I am putting you on ignore now. But from a Forsaken point of view, even some horde maybe, she is saving them. She is giving them a future, where they don't have to live in hell. That is what they have to go to if they die. Ya, ya. Your going to say slavery is bad, but she is still trying to help her people. Despite slavery being bad, her going to those lengths is actually kinda good.
zinc sandal
In exchange for others’ lives and futures
meager warren
just so u know, ignoring me, means i win
hollow dock
because he has very similar motives
sharp bluff
As a Frosaken Death Knight I vote the Banshee Queen
tulip sun
You really gonna compare the lich king and scourge army to this?
hollow dock
he torched all of Stratholme to protect Lorderon
meager warren
yes
hollow dock
it failed
but he still did it
he slaughtered hundreds of innocents to try and stop the scourge
Is he excused
because it was for good intentions?
zinc sandal
The answer is no, btw
meager warren
because, if you "save" people from hell, at the cost of enslaving them, you're putting them into hell anyway
zinc sandal
In fact, he made it worse
sharp bluff
You either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain, guess which you are
hollow dock
Are Jaina and Uther wrong for having turned their backs on him while he culled Stratholme?
sharp bluff
A book says yes
tulip sun
If I were Jaina and Uther, I of course would have turned my back on them.
hollow dock
Why?
tulip sun
They didn't know what was happening
tulip sun
To them, he was slaughtering innocents
tulip sun
But we know as players, they were infected. He knows they were infected.
hollow dock
We as players dont know that every single citizen was infected. We know the majority was at the point of Arthas arriving there.
Every man woman and child was slaughtered in the name of preserving Lorderon. Is arthas excused in his crimes?
zinc sandal
Sylvannas enslaving the Val’kyr is just not justifiable. It was wrong and that’s it. Her first nine val’kyr were kind of a gift for saving them. But these she tried to take by force.
She didn’t even take a diplomatic approach first, she jumped straight into slavery
So no. No excuse.
sharp bluff
Doesn't Oden force Val'kyr to serve him?
hollow dock
We know that he only forced Helya to serve
zinc sandal
^
sharp bluff
then if they disagree with him he curses them and tosses them away
hollow dock
we have no idea on the rest, but it seems like they decided to join willingly.
sharp bluff
ahh ok
hollow dock
He doesn't curse em
sharp bluff
so by fear?
hollow dock
Helya got all cursed for betraying Odyn and siding with the Old Gods and Loken
We again dont know if its fear
it doesn't seem to be fear, it seems to be reverence.
sharp bluff
just double checking
hollow dock
Yea. The Shieldmaidens strive to become Valkyr.
tulip sun
I had a big thing typed but the conversation changed xD
I didn't wanna bring it back up
zinc sandal
Yup
tulip sun
Hmm
hollow dock
Just a simple yes or no question Kham.
Ive been waiting this whole time patiently for it.
tulip sun
It is not my right to say if he is excused or not. They'd be dead either way.
There are always different ways to look at things.
hollow dock
Very ncie way to squirm out of it. Attempted enslavement of our only allies against the old gods is perfectly justifiable.
hollow dock
The Val'kyr, the titan constructs.
Do you really think -any- of them would side with us if Sylvanas was successful?
tulip sun
They are not the only titan constructs.
Ya, I think they absolutely would, or the planet where they are located would be doomed
hollow dock
Do you think Odyn would sit there as his force was broken apart for some undeads selfish gains?
meager warren
the rock midgits want to kill the Horde so no chance on that front
hollow dock
With odyn back, if he ordered Ulduar and the other titan facilities that are still with the titan's original plan to attack Sylvanas to take back his Val'kyr, they'd happily obey.
Again, it doesn't matter the personal gains Sylvanas had in this. Attacking our only allies that are actually willing to fight the old gods is a bad thing
period.
meager warren
Actually, Odyn should have done that right after Sylv tried to enslave them
sharp bluff
They still side with us even though Arthas enslaved them, so yes
zinc sandal
Arthas also betrayed the Alliance.
tulip sun
The point is, the matter is not white and black. To some people, that was their only chance for salvation. I agree slavery is bad, but that does not change the fact she personally was sacrificing one being for her own kingdom. TO her, to the forsaken, it was the correct thing to do. People have different morals and views in WoW.
hollow dock
But you're saying its ok
sharp bluff
no he is not though
hollow dock
I'm talking about just the two of us.
sharp bluff
alright im out then
hollow dock
When I ask you Kham, do you think arthas is excused of his crimes as you excuse Sylvanas
I do not ask what you think the world thinks
meager warren
there is no justification, ever, for slavery.
E. V. E. R.
zinc sandal
She didn’t want just Eyir. She wanted all val’kyr, which she could have acquired through her.
tulip sun
I am not excusing Sylvanas.
I am saying all these things you mention are not black and white
subtle flower
Aww, ret doesn't get judgement of light anymore? I was looking forward to that.
sharp bluff
Alliance send all orcs into slave camps Troll, let them talk between the two of them
killed them for sport
hollow dock
So then are you saying Sylvanas is justified and Arthas isn't?
rustic mountain
DOLPHINS
hollow dock
Just answer how you think meng.
zinc sandal
Orcs enslaved humans, too
meager warren
how is that relevant, Zep?
hollow dock
Alliance didn't send them to slave camps
they were internment camps and corrupted officers used them as gladiators
tulip sun
Arthas had his own motives and views, and he too had his reasons. To him, sacrificing the few to save the many was worth it. To jaina and uther, it was not.
hollow dock
In which, the alliance as a whole was unawares of the actions of blackmoore and his officers.
sharp bluff
and that is not the same thing? held against their will, forced to do things against their wills?
hollow dock
So then I ask YOU Khamnin
are Sylvanas and Arthas excused just because of their views?
tulip sun
It is not just because THEIR views.
hollow dock
I am asking YOU what YOU believe out of it.
Why do you just refuse to answer it?
Is it uncomfortable?
tulip sun
Anything I say to that question you will bash me for, whether I say yes or no, and I do not want to argue about it.
dense plover
Jesus Vrus
hollow dock
I won't.
dense plover
This isn’t about Khams views
tulip sun
Vris, I have seen you about the past week
dense plover
Kham is talking about how they see it
hollow dock
I have only asked about those views.
tulip sun
^^
hollow dock
how the characters view their actions was never the topic
dense plover
Why they did something
sharp bluff
This is starting to look like your forcing people into a corner Vris
hollow dock
what they were doing was.
dense plover
Their motive
tulip sun
It was exactly what I was explaining
dense plover
^
meager warren
Zep, the only reason that could be true is Khamnin backed himself into a corner by not answering Vris's questions fully
tulip sun
There is no reason to bring personal views into this.
hollow dock
I had only ever asked personal views.
tulip sun
This is a wow discussion, not a political discussion
hollow dock
Because this whole time, I was getting the vibe that you agree with Sylvanas and her actions
meager warren
This was a political discussion the moment it started
sharp bluff
Sush Troll
rustic mountain
How are y’all not excited about dolphins coming to WoW?! 😲😲😳
meager warren
why, Zep?
hollow dock
Orcas have been in the game since WotLK
tulip sun
I am trying to explain that her actions are not completely evil.
rustic mountain
WE GET TO SWIM WITH MOTHERF- DOLPHINS
tulip sun
Some view her actions are good
sharp bluff
If it is political then why are we not talking about all the alliance's flaws
because those are a dime a dozen also
meager warren
because Vris doesn't like to talk about it for some reason
sharp bluff
I bet i know why lol
hollow dock
That doesn't really pretain to us saying 'Slavery is bad, attacking our titan allies is bad'.
meager warren
i bet u guessed right
hollow dock
In which sure
alliance is shit
theyve done shit things
just as much shit as the horde
happy/
sharp bluff
Close enough
meager warren
but that still doesn't mean Sylv is justified in enslavement.
She may think she's justified by "saving" them....
but any sane (or insane?) person should know that slavery is hell by itself.
hollow dock
SHE should understand it more than anyone
meager warren
^
hollow dock
SHE was enslaved
tulip sun
Slavery is prominent at many places in WoW
I personally am talking the character views.
To forsaken and some others, she is justified
hollow dock
I am talking outside of their views and looking at the characters actions.
meager warren
character views are irrelevant when the character we're talking about is dumb as a bag of bricks
tulip sun
Character views are kinda the entire story
meager warren
at least Sargeras was consistent, imo
SARGERAS, THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD WARCRAFT VILLAIN
hollow dock
How about the void? Are they any less horrible just because we don't understand them? How about the Old Gods?
tulip sun
Naming off all the villains is not really helping.
meager warren
i'm bringing it up again
hollow dock
So are they suddenly just good guys we refuse to see their side of?
meager warren
strawmanning is also not helping.
hollow dock
Why is it they aren't excused but Sylvanas is?
meager warren
^
hollow dock
You're justifying them. Justification is an excuse.
steel venture
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dinosaurs/images/b/ba/Kaprosuchus1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161016031521
zandalari cat form leaked
//shot'd
tulip sun
Practically everything that happens in morally gray. Like Game of Thrones.
hollow dock
So blackmoore isn't just an asshole?
meager warren
so, Sylvanas isn't as smart as a bag of bricks?
hollow dock
also xan I support that being cat form
steel venture
okay but seriously they better use kaprosuchus or inostrancevia as the cat form
tulip sun
It depends on the character's allegiances and views.
steel venture
boar-crocodile from hell or the giant lion lizardbeast from hell
hollow dock
Sarco for swim form
steel venture
either or would be good
meager warren
i'm still waiting for devilsaur mounts
steel venture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHWBcJz50kk
oh, yeah. and this is inostrancevia btw.
... primeval is one of the few series of media that actually yknow
used it
dense plover
cat form is probably going to be a sabertooth
steel venture
when i mean lion-lizardbeast from hell i meant it
dense plover
or if it is a lizard
it has to be able to use the cat form animations
so it might end up unique like guardian
steel venture
which... both of these suggestions can
steel venture
because they're four-limbed predatory animals
steel venture
it aired on syfy for a while
originally a BBC show
basically time nonsense that kept sending predators from the past and future to modern day
and it used a lot of uncommon prehistoric animals
hollow dock
i remember watching and loving this
meager warren
🇳 🇾 🇪 🇸
steel venture
YAAAAAAAAAAS
they also had kaprosuchus make an appearnce too so lemme actually
get that
steel venture
tbh if they don't use either of these
it would be a missed oppertunity
ESPECIALLY KAPROSUCHUS
ITS LITERALLY CALLED
"BOAR CROCODILE"
YOU CAN GET IN THE ZANDALARI TUSKS JUST FINE
hollow dock
ITD BE AMAZING
AND DAMN IT XAN
NOW I WANNA WATCH IT ALL AGAIN
I LOVED THIS SERIES SO BAD
steel venture
IT WAS GOOD
meager warren
i'm glad i don't understand nostalgia
hollow dock
You've never just found an old toy from your childhood and just remembered fond memories playing with it?
meager warren
no
hollow dock
Well. That sucks.
meager warren
that may be because i lost all my toys and i was super good at hiding shit
hollow dock
That's literally all nostalgia is. Just remembering the past fondly.
meager warren
yep.
don't understand that
hollow dock
So you just have no memories that are fond? A first kiss, the first time you had ice cream? None of that?
meager warren
i've kissed someone and had ice cream and other shit like that but i don't hang on it.
my first relationship also didn't work out and while i didn't handle it the way i should have, we both moved on.
Ice cream is just food
hollow dock
Ah, one of those people.
meager warren
just for you ❤
although
i do have a dead discord which i used to share with friends and i keep it to remember the fun we had
so maybe i do
hollow dock
That right there is nostalgia.
meager warren
🤔 🇳 🇾 🇪 🇸
hollow dock
Some people revel in it more than others, like me. I love looking back at the past and when I find something I completely forgot existed, like the Primeval show, I immediately get a little freak out as all those memories come back to me.
meager warren
do you mean "less" or "more"?
hollow dock
what do you mean?
hollow dock
that's a comma actually.
meager warren
ha2l8mate
dense plover
so heres something cool
AtalDazar isnt just an instanced dungeon
its physically in the world
and you can go there
and there are rares and npcs and stuff
meager warren
cool
dense plover
probably world quests too considering it has a flight point
i like it when instances arent just instances
uncut vault
Yeah it’s the finale of the Zuldazar quests
dense plover
well theres a scenario for the finale
but i mean post finale
the zone is uninstanced
you can walk there from the big temple with no load screen
and then walk around in it
its definitely going to have world quests
the closest equivalent to this in legion is blackrook hold
meager warren
but the BRH instance can't be explored outside the instance
dense plover
no
but theres the outside part
i said the closest
its still a big distance away
honestly i cant think of a good equivalent
sort of parts of hellfire citadel (WoD), and maybe Iron Docks?
yeah
iron docks is a good example
meager warren
Iron Docks would fit, i think
hollow dock
so like the Iron Docks or Nighthold?
dense plover
yeah
i think iron docks is better
in that more of iron docks is in world compared to nighthold
so its a better equivalent
i hope the snake dungeon is similar
it seems like part of it will be outside in world
but im curious about the caves beneath it
hollow dock
I wanna be able to fly around and live in that snake skeleton
dense plover
the underrot is 100% instanced from what I know
and Tol Dagor is also fully in world
though im not sure if you can go back there following the intro
at least to the extent of the intro
i hope you can
meager warren
if they ever do WoD remastered, they better do the housing better
hollow dock
the only 'issue' the garrison had was that blizzard had a huge oversight in the resource gathering deparment
dense plover
oh yeah
shrine is the storm is in world too
at least partially, since we dont know the extent of the dungeon
same with freehold
so compared to any previous expansion, a lot more of these dungeons have uninstanced versions in the world that are either fully or partially accessible
which is awesome for an RPG
meager warren
the issue with garrisons is, they tried to make housing and failed at that.
Housing in almost every other MMO has at least some customization in them.
WoD garrisons didn't have that
hollow dock
it wasn't housing
at all
and every other MMO on the market atm doesn't have a legacy system from 2004
meager warren
it was meant to be housing tho, right?
hollow dock
Nope
meager warren
then wtf was it
hollow dock
It was meant to be the closest thing WoW could ever actually acheive to housing.
meager warren
soooooo..... housing
dense plover
and lost most of the customization
hollow dock
Not housing. They redid the garrison system halfway through development.
rich apex
It was meant to be WC3 base building
uncut vault
Well I’m happy it’s failures will hopefully help warfronts
frosty matrix
WoD has kind of been proving to be a period of helpful growing pains, in retrospect
Blizz seem to have learned a lot of stuff to not do with that
hollow dock
to be fair, cata was supposed to have been that as well.
meager warren
Sylvanas is evil tho.
Khamnin was probably just trolling.
hollow dock
Nah they were fully legit.
meager warren
or just weird
meager warren
how about, Sylvanas Syndrome
untold fractal
depends on your definition of evil. She will do what ever it takes to get what she wants. But she doesnt revel in the pain of others. it doesnt bring her joy to watch lesser beings be tortured.
hollow dock
Are there more than 1 definition of evil?
untold fractal
most definitely
meager warren
redgymer
someone who gets joy from another's pain is a sadist and not necessarily evil
frosty matrix
Yeah, if that's evil, then BDSM just got a whole more sinister
meager warren
kek
untold fractal
BDSM requires consent by all parties
frosty matrix
Getting permission to hurt someone because you get off on it doesn't change that you're a sadist
meager warren
yes but some people actually enjoy non-consensual pain
hollow dock
Evil, as far as I'm aware, is the state of being where you are entirely for personal gain. Where you're willing to do whatever you can to gain some personal benefit from it. Someone willing to go against the law if needed, or abuse it.
frosty matrix
You're just a sadist with a signed permission slip
hollow dock
that's what I know Evil to be and there's nothing that's challenged or hasn't fit under that.
meager warren
imo, evil is as undefinitive as good.
they're both entirely subjective and when people attempt to put an objective viewpoint on it, an interesting thing is that, all the definitions are different
untold fractal
fine then let me amend the statement to include a more general understanding of evil. She doesnt commit murder or genocide for the sake of either.
hollow dock
cough.
frosty matrix
I think with something like Warcraft, it's reasonable to, for example, put it in the framework of something like the D&D alignment system
hollow dock
That's how I always saw it. but hey. that's not the way to do it.
meager warren
oh but she threatened to kill/ raise Saurfang for the sake of him killing others.
not much different and a lot worse
hollow dock
ye. She's not evil.
meager warren
she's insane, in the bad way
hollow dock
exactly, not evil.
frosty matrix
You don't have to be evil to do evil shit
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say
hollow dock
Nah nothin she does is evil.
tulip sun
To some, she may seem evil. To others, she may seem like a hero even. You guys, being alliance, obviously see her as evil. She is an antagonist to the Horde. But she is in no way completely evil in the warcraft universe.
hollow dock
Im not really either or.
meager warren
"The roads we walk have demons beneath"
hollow dock
Alliance has done a lot of shit, like rigging up internment camps Adolf Hitler style
untold fractal
aye, look at Thralls origin story
glad edge
who were you saying is evil to horde?
frosty matrix
I was looking at it objectively but hey
meager warren
Khamnin, i think it'd surprise you, but i'm not Alliance
hollow dock
Blackmoore was a great asshole in the series. Though I guess just no in the Warcraft universe is actually evil.
tulip sun
I was just explaining what I told Vris.
meager warren
and Vris hasn't said she is/ is not evil either?
glad edge
exclusive group chat huh
untold fractal
there are plenty of people in the Warcraft universe that are inherently evil
hollow dock
nah
no ones evil as Khamnin just said
C3P0, this came up from a discussion about Sylvanas and if she's a villain and evildoer..
She is not.
apparently.
tulip sun
Vris, I feel like you are being very sarcastic right now.
hollow dock
I am not.
hollow dock
Nah she's not. No one in the warcraft universe is.
tulip sun
I think you are, lol. But anyway
meager warren
imo, no one is evil in the series, true.
But that doesn't mean there aren't flat villains and shit in it
Khamnin, can you read Vris's mind? No?
glad edge
if its horde its evil
tulip sun
Were you in our private conversation? No?
untold fractal
Vris, if no one is evil explain someone like Gul'dan
hollow dock
Hey man Im just saying what Khamnin has convinced me of
meager warren
i was in it before you entered so yes.
Also, this chat is a public discussion. You want to have a private conversation, go to PMs
glad edge
bit toxic mate dont you think khamhamaha