Im hedging my bets that blizz might surprise us with two more at launch, with maghar and kul tirans
#beta-ptr-spoilers
uncut vault
uncut vault
kul tirans and zandalari unlocking at the end of the zone stories makes sense
dense plover
like new one in X.1 and X.2
uncut vault
then tying maghar and dark iron to the war effort
dense plover
not kul tirans
its dark irons
we factually know dark iron is the zandalari equivalent
its been advertised that way
they cant change that
that would be false advertising
which is illegal
uncut vault
I mean, we factually dont. We just know theyre both confirmed launching in 8.0.
Im speculating that they can release additional ones alongside the advertised two
tacit vine
zandalari will have dk?
dense plover
compared to the zandalari, the kul tirans have less animations, cutsomizations, etc.
they make sense
but based off the current build, they are as ready as vrykul
uncut vault
All the advertisement says is that as we quest through kul tiras and zandalar, we'll be able to recruit them. There are no details on how we recruit the dark irons.
Cause build 1 of the ptr is toooootally the stuff theyre launching
as of the ptr build, kul tirans are more allied race ready than dark irons
they at least have a model
dense plover
no
but i dont think they will work on another set of races for launch
i could see it as patch content
but not launch
tulip sun
I totally see kul tirans being an allied race. Their models seem built for it
tulip sun
I never said done
dense plover
and they dont work with about half of 3d armor
uncut vault
Again, just speculating. They have a ton of animations, not all, but a lot
dense plover
waaaay less than a normal race
uncut vault
not really that many less
dense plover
they have no emotes
uncut vault
main ones missing are the new casting anims and / emotes
dense plover
they dont have animations for most weapon types or casting
and again
about half of 3d armor doesnt work
uncut vault
so you're saying
dense plover
theyre in the same place vrykul were in legion
tulip sun
First alpha build
uncut vault
theyre in development
dense plover
and people said the same thing
tulip sun
They have more than dark iron
tacit vine
is it worth asking wether there is even 0.1% chance of blood trolls being a future allied race? I just want it confirmed by blizz. Really bloody lovin them lel
dense plover
im pretty sure dark iron has been worked on but they didnt put them in the build for some reason
blood trolls? probably not - theyre the bad guys
along with the snake people
tulip sun
There is always a chance
dense plover
thats true of fucking everything
tulip sun
They put work in for nightborne
dense plover
you can always say that it is possible
and nightborne?
the ones we worked with werent the bad guys
in the storyline in nazmir, there are no good blood trolls from what we saw in the demo
tulip sun
Nightborne needed entirely new models is what I meant
So anything can happen if they are willing to do that
uncut vault
The kul tirans we're working wiht are our allies
tulip sun
Your real pleasant to talk to
dense plover
i also think they dont want to flood the game with new races
dense plover
i dislike when people say "what if" or "they certainly could" because it adds nothing. Hypotheticals are always true unless factually false, which makes them worthless for the conversation
tacit vine
the thing is, with allied races if they want to they can remove them
digital tiger
What if mrpeach gave me a hug?
tacit vine
they can choose not to be our allies if they want to easier than others
tulip sun
Christ, the fun is the speculating
dense plover
super illegal
digital tiger
mrpeach certainly could give me a hug
dense plover
speculation is not the same as what if questions
digital tiger
I'm liking these hypotheticals
tulip sun
Samr
dense plover
speculation bases things off the past
tulip sun
Same*
tulip sun
Mrpeach, if you don't like what is being discussed, don't contribute. No.need to ruin it for others though
digital tiger
Just because your name is orange doesn't make you part of the Bronze dragonflight. You have no right to judge something based on time.
hehe, jokes
dense plover
you could get struck by lightning - bad speculation. If i hold a metal bar and walk in a lightning storm, i might be struck by lightning - good speculation
do you see the difference?
back up ideas with reasoning
not just - i like it
or they are new, so they could do it
uncut vault
Okay, I'll put it like this
dense plover
thats what changes hypotheticals into speculation
digital tiger
I like the idea that mrpeach could certainly give me a hug.
tulip sun
I don't care if it is bad or good. Just let us do it
uncut vault
Compared to Zandalari, Dark Iron dont really fit with the story on Kul Tiras
dense plover
certainly
uncut vault
However, they do fit with an Alliance War Effort narrative
dense plover
at least from what we know
and yes i agree there
i think you are absolutely right that it is a likely possibility
uncut vault
Just like with the two speculated on, Kul Tirans fit with the zone story, and Maghar fit with the Horde War effort
dense plover
just like i think vulpera for horde is likely
uncut vault
so Im speculating that to make things more consistent, they might surprise us with two other allied races.
tulip sun
I love the idea of vulpera
dense plover
i think what they plan to do is tie story progression to the races, and it would certainly make it consistant for kul tirans to be the story unlock race
like the zandalari
digital tiger
I'm starting to think I'm not getting a hug.
dense plover
but in their current state, im just not sure
tulip sun
Other war effort races that make sense are taunka and forest trolls
dense plover
they have a lot of flaws
uncut vault
We know there are two War Effort factions, putting the two existing allies onto that at exalted makes sense.
dense plover
if we see the models change, progress, and get more features, my opinion on it will probably shoft
uncut vault
I doubt all the anims are in
dense plover
they have a lot of future patch animations for a lot of the models
uncut vault
Especially if these NPCs will be populating a whole town
dense plover
thats the thing
they have about the same as nightborne
which yes, are now an allied race
but when they launched them, that was not the plan
as a result, they essentially have the standard amount of animations for an npc
excluding some weapon ones
uncut vault
Difference there is the Kul Tirans support armor
rich apex
Alliance gets Dark irons because Blizz wasn't going to do 'Thicc Humans' as one of the first Allied Races
dense plover
and maybe some more unique ones for bosses
pretty sure nightborne npcs supported some armor
rich apex
But they also needed a new Allied Race to parallell the strcture of Horde recruiting Zandalari after the zone quests
uncut vault
Supporting armor =/= the ability to wear it, means the ability to take it off and still have a full skeleton. All the original nightborne models had armor grafted to their model
dense plover
vrykul are closer to the kul tirans then
again
i dont think its impossible
but i dont think it will be launch content
uncut vault
Thats why Im just speculating. Its just a possibility.
dense plover
ofc
my opinion is just as valid as yours
i certainly see it as a very likely possibility they will come eventually though
uncut vault
Aside from teasing us, theres no real reason to add things like the orc clan armor if it isnt for the patch.
dense plover
mostly because players want customization
rich apex
Eh, they datamined that Kul'tiras robe like a year ago
glass chasm
Hmmm and what if a race is possible for both, alliance and horde and you will choose your way
uncut vault
Blizz also took em out a week or two later
glass chasm
i mean there are not a lot of races which will be able for deathknights
uncut vault
Kinda goes against the Allied race narrative
the point is recruiting them for your faction
dense plover
^
tulip sun
Yup
dense plover
new races unrelated to old skeletons generally dont make sense as allied races
glass chasm
I mean if a class is not playable for the horde or alliance - this will be defently a shitstorm in future, so blizzard has to look on the balance that in minium each class is playable with 1 new race for horde and/or alliance
dense plover
they make sense as regular races
rich apex
There's already a boatload of options on both sides for every class
Except for DHs ๐
glass chasm
Druids on Alliance? Possible with the new races?
Or DH in generall, or deathknight, or paladin ๐
tulip sun
Druids are in the horde majority
uncut vault
I dont think class balance between factions really matters anymore
rich apex
^
jovial coral
Could azerite allow races to be classes not thought possible
uncut vault
hordes already getting 2 druids while alliance gets none, alliance is getting a paladin, possibly two, while horde may get none
rich apex
Anything is technically possible
tulip sun
Maybe a new class, but I don't see it
glass chasm
yes, and this inbalanced still produced a shitstorm @uncut vault
jovial coral
Corrupt Druid would make sense
rich apex
Someone whines about everything Blizz does
tulip sun
If the races make sense for classes they do
rich apex
I'm sure there was a shitstorm when they announced opposite faction pallies/shamans in TBC
tulip sun
If not, too bad. People will get over it
glass chasm
Does a monk make sense for zandalari?
tulip sun
Monk makes sense for everyone
glass chasm
why
tulip sun
Except maybe lightforged
rich apex
If the pandas are teaching Highmountain and Nightborne
dense plover
because pandas can teach any willing race
tacit vine
zandalari already fought with pandas
tulip sun
Hell, even lightforged
The pandas teach everyone
It is stupid goblins and worgent can't yet
gilded drum
Monk is the new Warrior. Everyone can be it because why not
rich apex
The Thunder Totem and Suramar updates literally show panda monks giving lessons
dense plover
^
dense plover
goblins and wogens would have to welcome pandaren
goblins probably see no money in it
and worgen are too angry
tulip sun
I mean, I am pretty sure it is due to starting zone
rich apex
Lightforged just don't have it because they have a rigid tradition that predates everyone other measly fighting style by a few eternities ๐
uncut vault
there are goblins in the monk hall
dense plover
the feral rage of goldrinn
uncut vault
clearly some are interested
dense plover
not enough i guess
gilded drum
hey you can't put a price on how thicc those pandas are
rich apex
Kul'tirans will clearly get monks because pandas establish a bond with their thicc fellows
jovial coral
Is there anything that could be considered a "faction" on Azeroth besides horde/alliance
true matrix
anything you can grind rep for
jovial coral
I mean like a multiple races united
dense plover
no
iron horde maybe
forces of the old gods, sort of
thats all i got
its unusual
dense plover
complex stories are not easy to tell in a video game, unfortunately
true matrix
earthen ring
deep frigate
The various pirate crews are pretty egalitarian
steel venture
honestly suprised that naga pirates though was only explored in hearthstone
uncut vault
theyve talked p the whole "naga are just like humans, dont all follow the same leader" but so far we've only seen like
one non-azshara group
steel venture
out of any race that'd be probably harassing those on the seas, naga pirates actually would make sense
hell, don't even need a real ship. just slap them on a giant kraken
deep frigate
Horrifying thought. I like it
steel venture
would give kul tirans something to hunt lmao.
if they're going with a monster hunter angle
... and specifically sea monsters.
deep frigate
"We're not trapped at sea with the naga. They're trapped in the sea with us. ๐ "
rich apex
Ten bucks we get a neutral naga faction in BfA
steel venture
please though
rich apex
(They'll join the Horde afterwards and Alliance PCs will immeadiately whine)
steel venture
p l s
neutral naga in general actually functions but blizzard is scared to do a neutral race again
for playables
rich apex
It seems pretty clear that they decided to go with six Allied Races that are reskins instead of just one entirely new neutral race
I can't really complain
steel venture
lets be real
the alliance is taking in one type of void-mutated elf
rich apex
Mostly because that neutral race would have been naga and I don't really care for one ๐
Horde took in walking corpses
steel venture
why wouldn't they take in the other type of void-mutated elf that is now a snake
rich apex
And void elves only got a pass because of Alleria
steel venture
***as long as they weren't loyal to azshara, obviously.
rich apex
Tyrande sure ain't gonna be okay with naga
steel venture
i mean if you need somebody who knows the sea like the back of their hand though outside of kul tirans..
jovial coral
Satyr naga sethrak blood trolls and 'others' will become a faction
tacit vine
years ago I wanted to go "on the other half of azeroth" and find a 3rd faction there
steel venture
.......... i would want an actual neutral faction.
label them as the mercenaries or something.
baboom.
rich apex
'yeah look at this entire flourishing society that...no one ever sailed to after ten thousand years'
I mean, at least Pandaria had a reason for being hidden
steel venture
and pvp-wise you've already got the issue of having a "third" faction solved then, merc mode. pick horde or ally to represent in PVP and done. otherwise, you're functionally neutral. ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
steel venture
IMO my explaination for the forbidding sea not being really traveled is just that it's teeming with naga
rich apex
(I still don't get why we never got an Emeral Dream expansion)
steel venture
naga would realistically have the largest population on azeroth, so.
rich apex
(Not that it isn't impossible in the future)
Ehh
Only if they reproduce like actual fish
steel venture
... actually.
civic saffron
they claim the emerald dream xpac would have been too small if you ask blizzard
jovial coral
Well there should really be two more factions
steel venture
if they had clutches more like regular snakes it'd STILL be the largest population
rich apex
They said that?
civic saffron
thats why we got dungeons and raids for it
rich apex
Keeping two factions balanced and relevant is a nightmare enough
But yeah. Emeral Dream seems so obvious. It's a connected, but entirely separate continent.
With a big overarching threat
civic saffron
i agree but what can you do with how blizzard thinks
rich apex
And it's a world pre-Sundering, which hasn't really been clearly defined
steel venture
"Sea snakes that spend 100% of their time in the water are actually ovoviparous, aka eggs are kept within the body and hatchlings are birthed live. Meanwhile other species like the sea krait are not and must lay eggs in a shoreline region.
It would likely be dependant on the individual naga, and how reptilian or fish-like they are to weigh in if they'd lay eggs in the water or not. At least one group in the Lost Isles do lay their eggs underwater.
Regardless the naga population is easily in the millions since we saw that same Lost Isles actually protect their young so that improves survivability.
Live-birth - 3-4 hatchlings at a time.
Reptilian egg-laying clutches - 4-20 hatchlings, possibly more.
Fish egg-laying - .... Terrifyingly variable. Perhaps 10-40, perhaps 300,000.
Naga are horrifying. ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ"
^^^ My math behind the naga population mess.
rich apex
It's perfect filler
Yeah, I was thinking Finding Nemo with the hundreds of egg babies ๐
jovial coral
The factions will never be balanced
civic saffron
and in a round about way we kinda are gettin the emerald dream with all this naga crap
uncut vault
any claims of things being too small are kinda moot now
broken isles used to just be a few outcroppings around the city of suramar
uncut vault
kul tiras and zandalar were small island kingdoms
civic saffron
but the story base behind kul tiras to them is huge
uncut vault
hell they literally did outland 2 as an entire xpac
civic saffron
again blizzard thinking
rich apex
But still. Blizz needs more filler so we don't beat the Void Lords too soon.
civic saffron
i do agree a throw back to the emerald dream xpax would be nice just so doubt blizzard would do it
rich apex
And N'zoth is literally the last finale boss level threat on Azeroth
That already exists, anyways
hollow dock
But there'd be nothing left in the dream. Unless you actually want a rehashing of the EN raid
which I dont think anyone wants
rich apex
Presumably a whole Dream expansion would have a bit more depth and variance than satyrs everywhere ๐
civic saffron
yeah i am looking forward to n'zoth im a lovecraftian fan
steel venture
N'Zoth and Azshara being the "finales" for Azeroth's major threats are the reason why I doubt we will actually kill Azshara during BFA.
We will face her, but I still 100% doubt we will kill her.
rich apex
They're not gonna do two sea/naga expansions in a row
steel venture
Especially with the fact that she's getting an intricate full-body model though, not a torso-up only model.
civic saffron
no no come on now blizz will use their wild card threat Hogger will be the true evil behind everything
civic saffron
i mean they updated him to a dungeon boss its very possible for him to get a raid level update
steel venture
Except he is 100% dead in lore since Cataclysm.
civic saffron
lol wow lore things dead dont always stay dead
steel venture
Him being upgraded to at least a dungeon boss was his final "hurrah."
jovial coral
Undead hogger
dense plover
if someone is dead, unless they are a demon or undead, they generally wont be coming back
this is only if you see them die on screen
not fall over, but die
in like a cutscene
steel venture
***except if they're a beast race, usually.
most of the dead beast race folk dont come back
dense plover
thats because beast races are generally not important
we havent had one in a while
BfA is the first one to get major groups of beast races
4 to be specific
quilboar, tortollan, vulpera, sethrakk
we havent seen beast races in a major role since Warlords technically, if the arakoa count
but its been a very long time since quilboar were important
im glad they are making a comeback
hollow dock
Technically they do count as we see the Adherent Arakkoa.
ripe barn
hey just a question if anyone here knew where to find this? One of my co-officers had had it had it and it looked legit
hollow dock
find what
ripe barn
sorry laggy phone hold on
bah screw it
was a warlock idle casting animation he claimed was the update and it had wowhead rockets in the background
hollow dock
as far as Im aware, Wowhead hasn't released a post on warlock casting animations.
tulip sun
I remember someone posting something about it here, a picture
dense plover
essentially the files just show they are working on it
hollow dock
I'm not sure. I dont believe it's actually from Wowhead.
tulip sun
So angry, lol
hollow dock
Those look like the shaman animations
uncut vault
theyre labeled lock
dense plover
they very much arent done
my guess is they straight up copied the shaman animations
hollow dock
Ah they'll use shaman as their base.
dense plover
and are going to tweak and change them appropriateluy
hollow dock
Makes sense all things considered.
dense plover
i think they will eventually be significantly different
but the work has just started
hollow dock
Just now theyre tweaked shaman animations
hollow dock
they were not to everyones dismay. Everyone else got an update though
dense plover
i mean
balance druid got new effects
but most of the animations havent changed
shamans and priests got the biggest ones
which is fair
because druids essentially were the base ones
oh
and i guess mages have unique ones too
i cant wait to see the warlock ones
i hope they eventually make it so spellcasters use their weapons to cast spells
i know they tried for legion
but 1, it didnt work out
dense plover
2, it was taking too long and it wasnt that important
i mean
again
balance druid
new moon doesnt use the scythe
hollow dock
Everyone else does.
uncut vault
There are noticable differences between the lock and shaman ones
dense plover
yes
but they arent that significant
we are saying tweaks have been done
but they clearly are far from finished
hollow dock
Noticable? yes. Significant? No.
uncut vault
Plus, live classes already share plenty of anims. Lock has unique ones from shaman. Shaman's are a hell of a lot more raised up than the new lock ones.
Just saying, if you're expecting something wildly different from what we just got
you're in for disappointment
hollow dock
We're not.
We're holding it to the same expectation that the Shaman, Priest and Mage animations got.
As blizzard told us, its on their level.
dense plover
^
i have a question
what artifact stuff is going baseline. the wowhead post confused me
hollow dock
Some of the orbs will become baked in or become talents
jade basalt
Ion Hazzikostas was asked about weapon wielding cast animations, he replied that in Warcraft traditionally people never used their staves to cast spells.
Someone didn't watch the TBC cinematic. Or the 6.2 cinematic. Or literally any other piece of artwork featuring a caster.
hollow dock
Like Ashbringers ability becomes a talent that'll never get used because Crusader
uncut vault
I mean, compared to other similar fantasy genres like Dragon Age
spells are more independent
dense plover
its an early form
i imagine trees are going to be shifted around
and if enough people complain, either it will become baseline
or maybe
just maybe
they will finally add another talent tier
which they should
uncut vault
I sure hope fire mages gets shifted a bit. Having two essential crit talents on the same tier will be a nightmare
dense plover
a 110 talent tier
uncut vault
that would honestly be the best course tbh
a 110 talent tier with one slot taking up the old artifact ability
dense plover
put 3 equally awesome artifact-esque abilities on a 110 talent
tropic trail
Thereโs a update on live servers, apparently allied race mounts were patched out the mount journal
olive mirage
ret pally is getting wake of ashes in their 100 talent
dense plover
lol
uncut vault
aka ret isnt getting wake of ashes
dense plover
that makes allied races seem less likely
uncut vault
yeah but no paladin in their right mind is taking that over crusade
olive mirage
a 5 second stun is stupid strong
that ignores stun immunity
against 2 common enemy types
uncut vault
Is it baseline stun to everything now?
hollow dock
crusade is crusade
uncut vault
that would be useful
hollow dock
Like
olive mirage
demon and undead, prob 2 of the most common enemy types
uncut vault
but thinking there will be demons or an overwhelming amount of undead in bfA
olive mirage
we dont know 
uncut vault
there will be some undead in one or two dungeons
olive mirage
there are ghosts in every fucking zone
hollow dock
Oh shit there were ghosts in every zone of Legion
olive mirage
it seems crusade got nerfed, max of 15 haste stacks
hollow dock
Crusade is a multiplier of damage and haste
uncut vault
isnt it 15 stacks on live
hollow dock
Theres literally nothing that beats it
zinc sandal
who even plays paladin ew
hollow dock
everyone because theyre beyond busted atm
zinc sandal
I've heard they're boring af.
hollow dock
Theyre no DH
uncut vault
mechanically, I think they suck with the legion rework
hollow dock
but most people don't care because top of the charts with near 100% uptime on Crusade.
uncut vault
but mathematically, theyre good
olive mirage
how do you get 100% uptime
hollow dock
near
olive mirage
2 minute cooldown with 20 second duration
hollow dock
3 artifact things that extend crusades duration
Ashbringer extends it as a baseline ability
and you slap that good ol' Time trinket
uncut vault
blizz really just needs to bake some insanely popular talents into baseline and adjust numbers
like shimmer on mage, or crusade on ret
also crusade has always been 15 stacks max
olive mirage
also wake of ashes has a massive multiplyer compared to other skills
hollow dock
now with 6 chances to get the extension to Crusade
olive mirage
210%
hollow dock
Doesn't matter. More haste means more damage means less CDs
Add in the damage multiplier
olive mirage
and what about when you wont have near 100% uptime
when all this legion stuff goes away
uncut vault
small bit of extra damage every 30 seconds is nothing compared to 45% increased damage
hollow dock
^
meager warren
So what'd i miss
hollow dock
Even without the legion buffs to it, it'll outperform.
uncut vault
regardless of artifact traits, 45% increased damage > a bit of extra aoe every 30 seconds
olive mirage
it also generates 5 holy power
uncut vault
thats an artifact trait
olive mirage
this is the talent version
meager warren
yep. nothing important. bai
hollow dock
Maybe it dos.
olive mirage
uncut vault
Still wont outperform. HP isnt that hard to get
hollow dock
But yea. the 20s of 45% increased damage
with extra haste
at a time where haste is almost non-existant
There's no way it underperforms
MAYBE fringe use in Mythic+
uncut vault
might be useful in atal'dazar with all the undead mobs
hollow dock
Maybe. But in general raiding and dungeoning, WoA is just to weak to Crusade.
uncut vault
but even then thats not the whole instance
hollow dock
They even nerfed Crusade and even while nerfed, its to strong
uncut vault
plus is it really a paladin fantasy without DEUS VULT
uncut vault
after the years of RP servers trying to play out crusades to lordaeron
hollow dock
I WANT TO POP MY WINGS AND JUST POP OFF
uncut vault
it finally succeeds
honestly, the loss of the other three golden traits is gonna hurt ret pallies more than wake of ashes
no projectile divine storm
no TV/DS mimics
no judge unworthy
meager warren
and how about crusades against the world tree? :khadgarface:
one match and it's all gone
not so much as even a crusade had to do that
hollow dock
Oh god
that's right
we lose our disc
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
uncut vault
a lot of specs have been dug into a progression corner with all these fun little things from artifacts
oh god just realizing
fire mage is losing blink heal
๐ฆ
hollow dock
arcane mage is losing its aoe
Frost is losing a chunk of its burst
B M HUNTERS ARE LOSING HATI
uncut vault
RIP ebonbolt
RIP Hati too
saved her just to literally infuse her with dark titan energy
meager warren
it was better as Hate
uncut vault
then lock her in a vault
meager warren
why u change it
uncut vault
For mage, blizz just needs to make Shimmer baseline
then add the blink heal in its place on the tree
mental onyx
major issue with shimer, it doesn't get out out of stuns and roots while base line blink does
hollow dock
for PVP I can see tha tbeing an issue
uncut vault
At least should bake in one of the traits into normal blink, either the not interrupting spells, or the two charges
Kinda just consumes a tier for PvE
new walk is nice
naked version
tight wagon
can you do the running anim?
hollow dock
why are we not seeing this on jaina?
uncut vault
only anim in is the walk
tight wagon
aw damn
uncut vault
for all her talents, shes not a thicc, naked, erect orc.
meager warren
gross
sage tapir
is that the actual upright orc model
sage tapir
oh my god yes
azure dew
On wowhead is there anyway to view the bfa questing armor or orc clan armor in dressingroom or model viewer?
hollow dock
No idea, honestly.
rich apex
Armor isn't in the dressing room yet, I think. Presumably will be an update when it is.
tacit vine
you like warcrafts trolls more or tolkien based ones?
sage tapir
i adore warcraft's trolls
meager warren
http://prntscr.com/i7grqz whaps Sylvannas NO! Bad
sage tapir
i agree with her
meager warren
why
sage tapir
one of the major reasons why i love this game is the war
the peace thing is just boring and forced imo
meager warren
even without the alliance vs Horde bullshit, there'd still be fucking war
lol
the war thing is more forced imo
sage tapir
the big enemy is dead
hollow dock
No they arent
sage tapir
why the hell do we need peace now
meager warren
there's always going to be a big enemy
hollow dock
Have you been ignoring that?
meager warren
^
sage tapir
who haven't shown their faces yet
hollow dock
Yes they have
meager warren
for once, i agree with you, Vris
sage tapir
i'm fairly certain the vast majority of azeroth's population has no clue
meager warren
the vast majority of Azeroth's population is getting tired of the Horde/ Alliance's bullshit
hollow dock
They do. Genn and Sylvanas are literally
the only ones who care about going to war
everyone else wants peace because we're LITERALLY KILLING OUR PLANET
meager warren
Anduin's dad is a slightly less of a piece of shit than Sylvannas
sage tapir
and Anduin is Genn's puppet and Sylvanas is Warchief
meager warren
but they're both pieces of shit
hollow dock
Anduin is far from Genns puppet.
sage tapir
he looks to Genn for approval before taking the azerite lol
he's entirely dependant on Genn
hollow dock
Because he's still a young man, unsure of this substance being handed to him
A single nod of 'Is it safe'
doesn't mean dependance
sage tapir
he hasn't made any decisions of his own either
hollow dock
He made the decision to continue his fathers legacy to FIGHT for PEACE
sage tapir
ergo war
meager warren
we all know that Genn would get rid of Anduin in any way so that he could maybe fight the next guy for the throne
(Conjecture ofc)
because who the fuck knows except bliz
hollow dock
War isn't the only fight for peace. D:
sage tapir
Varian's "fight for peace" crap is nothing but a call for war against the Horde
meager warren
^
hollow dock
No it isnt
sage tapir
he's been an advocate for the faction war all his life
hollow dock
It really isnt. If you look at the progression of Varians character across all the books
meager warren
http://prntscr.com/i7gt7i Gallywix is still a sketchy ass dealer
hollow dock
you will see how much he's changed his perspective by the time he dies in Legion
He's a business man first. That's how business men act.
meager warren
anyway, the war is forced by now because the only thing keeping it alive is because the game is called "warcraft"
meager warren
the horde retreated for survival
meager warren
^
sage tapir
never said retreat afaik
hollow dock
its disbelief of a first thought that came into his name
sage tapir
you can hear it in his tone
hollow dock
You can hear UNCERTAINTY
sage tapir
that he thinks it's a betrayal
meager warren
but anyway, whether Varian did or didn't say that is irrelevant.
sage tapir
the desparation because his faith was misplaced
hollow dock
Yes its the first thought that pops in his head, which is why he is UNCERTAIN and DOESN'T BELIEVE she would pull a stunt like that
meager warren
how is the peace forced
sage tapir
it's relevant because he remained a warmonger up until the day he died
meager warren
Legion is the only expac that made sense in terms of war
hollow dock
If anything, boi here is doing his best to force this narrative of varian never changed
despite everything post cata onwards saying he did
meager warren
that'd make sense
floral gyro
I feel like getting toxic over the faction war won't help either side lol
makes both parties seem really immature
sage tapir
i'm not trying to force any narrative
hollow dock
You are
meager warren
^
sage tapir
just saying that your obviously biased view isn't exactly the clearest
floral gyro
I don't see how arguing about it helps
hollow dock
Im saying thed war on both sides is stupid Targai
sage tapir
it's stupid but explain that to Genn and Sylvanas
hollow dock
How are my veiws biased? because I read the books and followed the story?
sage tapir
who both push their fellow leaders to war
floral gyro
and that's your perspective, but if someone enjoys it why does it matter lmao
meager warren
"she wouldn't retreat" implies zip except he has some misconceived notion about who Sylvannas is. She WOULD and DID retreat.
floral gyro
I hate using this argument but it's a game, is it really worth arguing over?
sage tapir
it's worth arguing over if you're a fanatic
floral gyro
As far as we know the faction war is happening at least in the beginning of the expac. This won't change.
meager warren
says the fanatic
hollow dock
Because I enjoy this game and hate it when people slander off good characters and writing.
sage tapir
which everyone involved here is
hollow dock
So yes it is.
floral gyro
We don't know if it'll stay that way
sage tapir
icluding myself
meager warren
actually, i think the writing in terms of faction relationships went to shit after the war started being forced
hollow dock
Varian is a well written character. Most of the alliance and hordes main characters have had good writing.
meager warren
none of the characters have an actual personality. they're all flat villains
well, "all" is a bit of an exaggeration but eh
floral gyro
yeah i...can't really agree with saying that wow's writing is good
hollow dock
Mostly Genn and Sylvanas.
floral gyro
Lately it has, what with them hiring an actual writer
hollow dock
I never said WoW is.
sage tapir
Varian is well written and I have to agree there
floral gyro
so hopefully we'll see an increase in quality
hollow dock
I said Varian.
sage tapir
but he wasn't the greatest advocate for peace with the orcs
hollow dock
Specific characters
sage tapir
that just stands
hollow dock
No he wasn't at first. Nor with Garrosh.
floral gyro
Didn't he flat out say that he'd end the horde if they failed to uphold honor lol
hollow dock
That was due to Lo'gosh being in control for those early years and Garrosh was a warmonger.
sage tapir
he did
hollow dock
Yes he did, to Vol'jin.
Vol'jins horde upheld their honor until Sylvanas had taken over.
uncut vault
WoW has always been decent writing, held back by the need to keep game mechanics intact
meager warren
what Port said
floral gyro
yeah, that's fair
hollow dock
Promising to wipe out a potential enemy if they ever decide to pull another Theramore is not warmongering
Warmongering would be immdiately cutting them down mercilessly. Like garrosh did with the Night elves.
sage tapir
warmongering would be suggesting or instigating war under any circumstance
and given how vague his remark at the end of the Siege was
i see it as warmongering
hollow dock
That's fair.
meager warren
Warmongering is... http://prntscr.com/i7gwbt
so basically terrorism
sage tapir
terrorism better describes actions by militant groups with goals to demoralize a civilian population
meager warren
http://prntscr.com/i7gwwd you're right but you missed a piece of that definition
sage tapir
though the terms do converge slightly
and yeah i neglected to mention poilitical aims
meager warren
no. you neglected to mention the intimidation
hollow dock
Personally, do away with the war. The story doesn't affect the gameplay at all.
meager warren
can you reword that
meager warren
not really
sage tapir
doing them a scare
meager warren
^
sage tapir
and yeah the story doesn't really affect gameplay but in the case of the war it makes some aspects more sensible
hollow dock
Not really. Every aspect of PVP we have can be chopped up to individual behavior, or wargames.
meager warren
sage tapir
wargames maybe
meager warren
not the same thing
sage tapir
but individual behavior in this case would be a blatant cause for war
meager warren
not really?
hollow dock
Not really. If two soldiers go off and kill each other without orders to their armies, the armies do not go to war.
meager warren
War is a shitty thing. Two armies aren't going to waste resources on a pointless thing
except, when they do
hollow dock
Put a 5 second warning when entering opposing faction camps and then either killed or booted out. Like every other place in the game.
sage tapir
yet if their deaths are discovered, hell erupts in the form of a search into who started it
meager warren
but to make it make sense, they shouldn't
hollow dock
And when the search yields it was 2 tards being tards, they dont start a war over it.
meager warren
^
sage tapir
in the case that it was two tards
hollow dock
When its actual orders from an insubordinating officer, they leave that officer and anyone following/protecting him to dry
meager warren
and... even if it were two smart-as-shit assholes, nobody's gonna give a shit
meager warren
you only failed twice! casual
sage tapir
a realistic scenario would likely be far less black and white but, fair
hollow dock
The reality of the situation is this: If two factions are at peace but their soldiers fight and skirmish
which was the whole first three expacs of WoW btw
They dont instigate a full scale war
meager warren
yes, that is true. but only because war irl is caused by babies in adult meatsuits
but yeah, what Vris said
hollow dock
well. 2 expacs and vanilla
sage tapir
the babies in adult meatsuits aka sylvanas
hollow dock
and genn
meager warren
and Varian (Referring to the time he was a pos) and Garrosh and Jaina and basically every Horde leader ever. Except Cairne and Baine and Vol'jin
meager warren
oh, add him to the "except..." list then
sage tapir
Saurfang is also one of the few reasonable Horde leaders
hollow dock
well no. Jaina I have to disagree very harshly on
sage tapir
Jaina has a very good reason
hollow dock
She's far from been a child in her actions. She's one of the like. 2 characters I can say is justified in everything she's done
meager warren
isn't it because of Jaina that the Alliance isn't allowing the Nightborne into their ranks?
or is that someone else
floral gyro
Tyrande
meager warren
ahh
hollow dock
Its actually not because of Tyrande but ya know that argument has been done to deatha nd no one on either side is budging
uncut vault
im glad I sat this one out
hollow dock
I wouldn't call it arrogance. Tyrande's family turned their back on her when she needed them most.
hollow dock
Tyrande was sent to win a civil war, not make friends. The horde, Liandrin specifically, has been very kind to the Nightborne and their plight having had lived through the same.
uncut vault
oh are we discussing suramar
meager warren
yes
hollow dock
The Nightborne also just got out of a situation of being stuffed behind walls, the alliance very much likes their isolation and fortresses. The horde does not with Garrosh beign gone.
meager warren
but also no
uncut vault
the way I see it, tyrande was a dick, but she was a dick for a justified reason
hollow dock
I can agree to that
uncut vault
to her, these fuckers served the legion, are now still serving the legion, and the lady in front of her is the second in command to the lady serving the legion.
hollow dock
With a third well of power
meager warren
the way i see it is, anybody who's a dick may be justified but that doesn't mean what they did/ what they're doing is acceptable
uncut vault
are we the real villains? ๐ค we're kinda dicks for killing all those bad guys ๐ค
hollow dock
People against her say she wasn't justified at allf or the way she acted. She very much is.
Her and Jaina are the only character I can say are justified in doing the actions they've done. :v
sage tapir
tyrande putting her own interests ahead of those of the alliance and basically denying them a potential ally is difficult to justify
uncut vault
๐ BOI ๐
hollow dock
She didn't place her own interested infront of the alliance
meager warren
i'm against her and i agree but i also dislike how you're generalizing everybody who is against her into one group
hollow dock
the alliance sent her and the night elves to aid in the civil war and break the siege.
meager warren
not cool
hollow dock
Sue me
sage tapir
she didn't because she didn't even see them in her blindness
meager warren
sued
sage tapir
sue me too
hollow dock
She did see them.
She worked alongside them
She fought with and for them
On the front lines.
uncut vault
but tyrande wasnt looking for an ally there. She didnt like the nightborne, and has no reason to. To her, theyre addicts looking out for themselves. She freed their city, and hoped they would go on a better path after it.
sage tapir
liadrin had the same orders as tyrande though
floral gyro
whether or not she was justified isn't relevant, thalyssra felt attacked by it
meager warren
i mean, it's not like they have a choice in being addicts
sage tapir
rightfully
hollow dock
They always had a choice.
meager warren
aren't they dependent on the mana?
floral gyro
so yeah imo i don't see any reason for them to not join the horde
hollow dock
Not ten thousand years ago when they decided to seal themselves up
tulip sun
Thalyssra even states, that she hoped that the Night Elves would be allies/friendly, but they did not extend any relations with them after Insurrection
meager warren
ahh
sage tapir
yeah they had a choice of getting wiped out by demons and becoming addicts
hollow dock
Not ten thousand years ago when they abandoned the world.
meager warren
touche
uncut vault
my big thing with suramar is I love that tyrande was a dick, and love that theyre leaning towards the Horde
hate that of all the lines to justify it with, they used their first meeting
sage tapir
it's a very one-sided decision
meager warren
why u do dis
uncut vault
use one of the world quests where tyrande is a dick
meager warren
i hate how they don't just combine the Alliance and Horde into one Neutral Faction and all the currently playable races aren't entirely neutral
uncut vault
of all the lines to choose when committing to joining tyrandes enemies, they chose the "how do we know you wont betray us and become our enemy" line
meager warren
in everything
hollow dock
Theres no reason to combine the horde and alliance.
sage tapir
either way I'm going to piss off now, got work in 2 hours
uncut vault
#dismantlethehorde
sage tapir
great discussion
meager warren
they did that in Legion and it worked out ok
hollow dock
#Jainawasrightallalong
floral gyro
manabomb stormwind
hollow dock
Speaking of the order halls
floral gyro
#nomercy
hollow dock
"Hey saurfang, thanks for helping me out on that mission. You're heading to Undercity? See ya there you green flea bag."
meager warren
if it were possible, i'd make my alliance toons go just so they could defect to the horde
tulip sun
Guys, I think the four first allied races join before the official act of war
hollow dock
Really?
meager warren
but NO, BLIZ HAS TO MAKE UNREASONABLE RESTRICTIONS
hollow dock
What gave you that impression?
floral gyro
actually i agree
hollow dock
Arson no one here is vying for neutrality and removal of the factions
tulip sun
If they are a pre-perchase bonus
hollow dock
I am saying, just end the war.
tulip sun
They happen before the war
floral gyro
you can see alleria in the battle for lordaeron WIP cinematic
meager warren
the highmountain tauren and nightborne prob join before the first battle but the zandalari and dark iron prob don't
tulip sun
^^
floral gyro
Which kind of implies to me that she's fully joined the alliance beforehand
meager warren
And Vris, that makes me sad
floral gyro
Others are probably gonna join in the pre patch imo
or pre-order bonus depending on what blizz does with the allied races
tulip sun
The Highmountain, Lightforged, Void Elves, and Nightborne are obviously joining pre-war.
hollow dock
Over in the PTR chat we had actually all agreed on one thing
tulip sun
Alleria sure as hell wouldn't have been allowed in Silvermoon if the factions were in full out war number one.
hollow dock
The allied races happen before the Burning of teldrassil/Invasion of undercity and will be either at the end of 735s life cycle or pre-patch
floral gyro
i agree with khamnin
meager warren
do you really think they could stop people who could harness the power of the void? and those guards are a joke
floral gyro
Although we don't actually know the timeline of the allied race recruitments do we?
Do void elves happen first or do Nightborne
tulip sun
Nightborne
dense plover
nightborne before void
hollow dock
We know they all start before the war.
floral gyro
Neato
dense plover
because alleria gets kicked out of silvermoon after void elves
and she is there for the nightborne
tulip sun
Nightborne are first because the Void Elves are kinda a, reaction to what happens there
dense plover
they follow each other
tulip sun
Highmountain and Lightforged idk.
floral gyro
Do we still not know what the void elf void form is by the way
hollow dock
Lightforged Id wager are the first allied race to join the Alliance
floral gyro
I really wanna see that
hollow dock
because ya know
meager warren
Highmountain and Nightborne probs happen at about the same time
hollow dock
No we dont
floral gyro
yeah my hypothesis is Highmountain, Lightforged, Nightborne, Void Elf
tulip sun
I am curious if as you recruit them...will their leaders appear in the embassy?
floral gyro
Highmountain and Lightforged probably at the same time
hollow dock
Maybe.
floral gyro
they don't really interfere with each other so
tulip sun
Sort of like as you recruit champions, they permanently appear, etc.
hollow dock
personally I say the Lightforged joining their prophet happens before all others
tulip sun
All allied race storylines supposedly end at the embassies
hollow dock
in response the horde go and recruit the tauren
tulip sun
I at least remember the Horde ones do
They swear themselves and their forces to Sylvanas.
hollow dock
Horde has the void problem, recruits the nightborne.
Alleria heads off to Silvermoon and the void shenanigans happen again and get kicked out to find the void elves. they join the alliance.
meager warren
if the horde ones do, so do the alliance ones
ooohh noo
Sylvannas is still Warchief? uggghhh
hollow dock
Shes staying warchief until someone kills her
tulip sun
Sylvanas is staying warchief for a while bud
hollow dock
or the horde turns on her
tulip sun
Get over it xD
meager warren
no
hollow dock
you tell em Arson
meager warren
let me drown in my hatred for a pile of data
tulip sun
I personally like Sylvanas
hollow dock
I love her as a villain
tulip sun
It will develop her hopefully
hollow dock
I hate her as anything else.
tulip sun
If she doesn't change, she becomes another horde dungeon or raid boss.
meager warren
i hope the Horde player character will be able to kill her
tulip sun
I feel like she will accept all the horde as her 'people'
hollow dock
She's never shown an ounce of change or remorse.
tulip sun
There are instances of her recently apparently in books, where she is starting to feel more.
floral gyro
I'd honestly hate another 'lol warchief is evil'
uncut vault
I dunno what character development people expect her to go through OTHER than learning to accept all of the horde in BtS
meager warren
did you miss the part where she only cares about the forsaken, Khamnin?
floral gyro
Although I would love a Saurfang/Baine warchief so
hollow dock
The only part I can see that is War Crimes
whens he feels the primal need to protect her sister
by killing her
tulip sun
That is called character progression, Arsonite. It will eventually become caring about the entirety of the Horde.
She lost her city
hollow dock
And her suicidal and very depressed sister that she nearly manipulated into doing,
remember she had kids and is all fine and dandy
meager warren
well, she used to care more about the Horde until about MoP, i assume
hollow dock
Veressa sucks as a mother @true matrix
meager warren
then she turned into Garrosh 2.0 when he died in WoD
meager warren
u crazy
steel venture
The last thing Blizzard would wanna do is create an actual new Garrosh.
hollow dock
She's undead. She doesn't actually feel anything, she just thinks.
tulip sun
Her 'For the Horde!' sounded genuine. She lost her home, she needs them. They need to look out for eachother.
steel venture
The outrage is already bad enough right now.
hollow dock
She needed to rally her troops
tulip sun
You guys are like talking to brick walls.
hollow dock
That doesn't mean she cares if they live or die
steel venture
Also undead can feel emotions stop perpetuating the myth that they can't. It is confirmed that they can, it is heavily muted though. As if most undead have crippling depression. Stop.
tulip sun
She obviously is going to change if they put her in a spot like this.
meager warren
^
tulip sun
She went from using her people as a tool, to searching for a way to help them live forever(despite it also helping her).
hollow dock
Going on the past actions of the character, its highly unlikely that she suddenly becomes caring of those not forsaken.
meager warren
i liked Sylvannas when i played the Forsaken starter questchain but then that started to fall apart when i saw who she is now
meager warren
also, that's if she even cares about the forsaken.
hollow dock
her character arc follows this line a lot better: She goes from wanting vengence on Arthas for killing her and turning her undead to finding purpose in the people she leads and their preservation.
When the world pushes against her resurrecting more dead, like a little man known as Arthas, she pushed back saying it was the only way.
Then started a genocidal campaign of all humans in the surrounding lands.
meager warren
but i guess she forgot the part where, if all the humans die, so too does the forsaken
hollow dock
Cuz she didnt even do it to resurrect them
she used her new plague that kills both living and dead.
meager warren
ooh
hollow dock
that's never changed.
meager warren
yeah, nvm. i hate her even more now
hollow dock
this is why I say, I love her as a villain. She fits the bill perfectly.
steel venture
wasnt most of southshore / the sludgefields driven by undead that were against sylvanas.
like.
hollow dock
An anti-hero delving fully into the dark side working against the world in secret.
steel venture
that is literally what you find out during the questing there
the warden guy is anti-sylvanas
and wants to take over undercity
tulip sun
I feel like after Undercity, she, or at least the forsaken will embrace the Horde more.
steel venture
and you bring him in for punishment worse than execution
hollow dock
She personally deploys the plague in Gilnaes.
After given strict orders not to.
The plague bombing in Hillsbrad, right next door, I see very much as her own orders.
meager warren
are you talking about Warden Stillwater?
hollow dock
Everything else after the plaguing, eh.
uncut vault
people just need to accept that the Horde generally is a more evil faction, and things would be much easier
hollow dock
Oh I do.
meager warren
the way they justified that is, they made Stillwater seem worse than Sylvannas
hollow dock
And I am happy to see them as the more evil than the alliance. Theyre hut squatting barbarians after all
uncut vault
Well, Sylvanas at least just kills humans then raises them