creator_dlc_discussion

[nimble hatch]

But you do on the fly meetings like addressing QA issues? How does that feel to the team members? Positive or negative impact?

[devout turtle]

some guys i have to meet weekly and manage their to-do list with them

as they wouldnt function well without direct management

i personally manage over 40 team members

QA is handled by a separate manager

and a separate discord to the main work team

[nimble hatch]

So how many on the fly - organised meetings for a any topic would you say it is in %

[devout turtle]

0%

well

ok we have a weekly terrain team meeting

and a mission one

and then in small groups people meet weekly on their own areas of development

i dont attend most of those

[nimble hatch]

Ah I see

[devout turtle]

we never botherwith a leadership level meeting

it proved a waste of time

[nimble hatch]

So u judge who is good working o independently or not on their work output and personality type and/or what they request ?

[devout turtle]

you need a clear vision and goal, and then let people work at their level on their sub-team goals

yeah

experience and responsibility == greater freedom

some people literally can't function without direct hands-on management

but when they are managed, they deliver in spades

[nimble hatch]

Yeah well I heard one studio have tried to cut costs by taking in interns instead of experienced team members and productivity and initiative and innovation has dropped drastically

[devout turtle]

some people need a buddy to thrive

[nimble hatch]

Like down by 80%

[devout turtle]

it's never a case of purely functional assessment

i.e. dont just look at the work type they do

you have to consider the personality, experience, see what makes them deliver

[nimble hatch]

Like these interns only do what their told and nothing else

[devout turtle]

some interns will turn into future CEOs

[nimble hatch]

That's a real nuisance for us and for them, because it causes a negative cycle

True, very true

[devout turtle]

but some will coast along wasting every opportunity

you have to shake the tree regularly

and get rid of the coasters

[nimble hatch]

Some interns see the gaps and address them and propose solutions so out of bad times, people rise to the challenge

So it could be a necessary evil sometimes I guess

[devout turtle]

letting in people who dont share your goals creates a toxic seam in the business

so everyone here (in our team) is undertaking a prolonged job interview

once they deliver a solid result, the eye is off them

i monitor each new person, offer assistance and support

the ones who try to go it alone or dont work well with other team members either quit or get asked to leave

it's better to lose a good artist/ programmer than allow them to build up and entrench power in your team if they dont have passion for teamworking

[nimble hatch]

That's so true

[devout turtle]

it's where being firm on your future organisation goals is important

[nimble hatch]

Nip issues in the bud aas the saying goes

[devout turtle]

saves you both a lot of heartache

and wasted hopes and effort

[nimble hatch]

Ego plays a part in that issue

Egos your worst enemy

U know that already

[devout turtle]

TEAM is all

team or feck off

putting it bluntly

[nimble hatch]

There is no I in team lol

[devout turtle]

it's very easy to just take in anyone who volunteers

[nimble hatch]

Literally, I think there is nothing more rewarding than reliable strong team members

[devout turtle]

i demand a high level of professionalism and teamworking

[nimble hatch]

Like there really a big value

[devout turtle]

some people fail

they fail others in the team

it's tough, but they gotta resolve that or they gotta go

so i do bear down on people at that stage

[nimble hatch]

This is the hard thing about working in team, some people snitch on others or get others in trouble for their mishap

[devout turtle]

and offer them a choice

[nimble hatch]

And leading the team as sometimes a little investigation has to take place

[devout turtle]

occasionally they explain the situation and i realise im seeing it wrong

i always give people plenty of room to reflect and deal with the problems arising

so i put my ego to the back. im there to serve the team and to serve them

[nimble hatch]

Yeah that's it man

[devout turtle]

and if they cant fit in, we part ways. there's no malice or hard feelings here, it's just a natural course of events

people can get swamped in drama about this kind of aspect in an organisation

[nimble hatch]

Yeah that's it, have had to do that before, but those guys know exactly what they were doing and the consequences so I didn't feel guilty removing them

[devout turtle]

it takes a cool head and a robust flexible secure contract to underpin the team experience

for example you need to secure the IP early in the dev stage so that if another team member works on it, their work is not lost if someone leaves suddenly

[nimble hatch]

Oh yes this is very important

[devout turtle]

then nobody can hold you to ransom

[nimble hatch]

Manipulation and coercion is so horrible

[devout turtle]

we had one guy suddenly demand immediate payment for his work, after signing the same contract we all have, which agrees to payment after release.

so i explained that was not possible

and he tried to ransom us

so i simply cancelled his contract, and we removed his work, which led to another guy losing his work, which i still would have paid for.

that second guy left due to this unhappy outcome

so we lost a team member due to one guy being a crook basically

i tried to recover the situation but the crooked artist would not send us the high poly and settle on a fee.

[nimble hatch]

This is the thing in life, naivety is your worst enemy, be it for a leader or team member

[devout turtle]

thankfully we dont get many of those situations

because if we did, we wouldnt have a CDLC to deliver....

[nimble hatch]

And he was under contract so he had no way of really winning

But what an ass

[devout turtle]

he had worked on AAA titles before

[nimble hatch]

There then worst people

[devout turtle]

the guys from the arma modding community are MUCH more reliable than many commerically experienced artists

[nimble hatch]

Yeah I guess that stems from the collective intention of seeing arma 3 reach its potential

[devout turtle]

you have to avoid the money-grabbers and the status-queens

and the outright insane loners

it's a minefield

you need self-aware people who know themselves, and love working in a team to create a collective vision

[nimble hatch]

I do believe really there is no point even wanting arma 4 as a community until we really have pushed the envelope on arma 3, or we are setting ourselves for a massive upset

[devout turtle]

skills can be taught

personality types arefixed

[nimble hatch]

For the most part yeah, it's hard for many people to shift how they operate and interact, it takes self reflection and correction, like I'm a middle child so I've got some ingrown traits that just wouldn't change, but as I Grow, I budge on other things

I always prefer working with people who have been raised with siblings, they are easier to interact with and have some rationale

But the worst people are the ones who think their perfect can't take being wrong they justify their own actions to themselves to tell them self their right, then they get really salty when they are called out, when you give those guys that period of reflection, as you said earlier, I really respect you for that, that helps situations getting out of hand

[devout turtle]

i try, i think quite a few people think im a proper asshole. you cant please everyone.

you just have to do your best

being a team leader always puts you in the frame for suspicion, hate, envy, being pilloried, lampooned, jeered at, for backstabbing, targetting, and sniping.

[nimble hatch]

Haha people don't like confrontation and/or vociferous tones of voice, it attacks their very personality for some, others realise it's not they areare attacking then personally, but simply pointing out an issue

[devout turtle]

luckily i only really get that treatment from outside the team.

[nimble hatch]

Hahah dayummm

Lol

[devout turtle]

and when it happens i get a bunch of reassuring messages from my team saying "ignore that guy" or "if you need any help, or an ear, i'm here bud."

[nimble hatch]

That's dope

[devout turtle]

once our CDLC drops im gonna take a backseat, and let the publicity be handled completely by others

[nimble hatch]

That's it

[devout turtle]

which i did previously on jets dlc too

it's therapeutic staying out of the melee

[nimble hatch]

So from previous experience you know it's the healthiest thing to do?

[devout turtle]

yeah

[nimble hatch]

Oh healing

I feel that

[devout turtle]

as you care so damn much about your product

it's best to stay out of the dialogue

or at least to skim the surface

[nimble hatch]

Yeah or you will get blasted

Lol

[devout turtle]

i didnt make this, WE did

so we have community managers and spokespeople lined up

the coolest heads in the room

[nimble hatch]

If people know they can personally get in touch with the main guy they will surpass the hierarchy and just dish out unchecked negativity and crap talk

[devout turtle]

the nicest guys out front

we are prepared for some envy and hate

[nimble hatch]

It's good to know the troops but not always be accessible, it's crazy but necessary sometimes

[devout turtle]

and ridicule

but

those voices will be the few not the many

[nimble hatch]

And in today's age of keyboard warriors, people can hate and get justice served to them there and then

True, true

[devout turtle]

so we'll just manage our narrative

[nimble hatch]

Can't get* justice served

Yeah, also

[devout turtle]

and enjoy the fruits of our labour

and not worry about those sad guys

[nimble hatch]

Projects like these for guys who have never had to adjust and adapt or coordinate can also be on their own personal journey of growth

They keep to themselves u know

?

[devout turtle]

i don't like having enemies, but a few will pop up and fire a few shots im sure

[nimble hatch]

You just got to return fire sometimes

[devout turtle]

we'd prefer those guys to enjoy our product

and if not, then to find another outlet

we have a more interesting agenda to pursue

all will be revealed in good time....

[nimble hatch]

Yeah, if you could give anyone advice in joining a Project, what would it be?

[devout turtle]

make sure you read and understand the contract

[nimble hatch]

Hahaha

[devout turtle]

it's the whole basis of our relationship

[nimble hatch]

Serious talk, and what about their conduct?

[devout turtle]

if they are joining ours, they get coached

setting weekly checkins wit h their team mates who work on the same assets is a minimum requirement

[nimble hatch]

I still go by the one I said earlier about giving them enough rope to hand themselves, their in control of their actions, unless their delusional they will have an understanding of reality and damage

[devout turtle]

i usually point them to the clause in our contract which says if you become unreasonable and attempt to damage the team, you pay for our lawyers to deal with you out of your income.

[nimble hatch]

And good team members and morale helps the team on the right track

[devout turtle]

this protects everyone in the team against people who won't work towards our common best interests

[nimble hatch]

The quote on the rope is alleviating oneself of worrying for a other person who fully knows their damaging actions on other around them and promotes decisive action that helps progress

[devout turtle]

other advice - stick to NDA (which is why nobody in a3 discord talks about this cdlc but me)

[nimble hatch]

And your issue does help because it eliminates bulls hit and informs them of consequences and isn't just an idle threat not backed up

[devout turtle]

yeah its robust and fair

[nimble hatch]

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do eh

Lol

[devout turtle]

working in law related profession for 23 years was a bonus in this regard

we write good contracts

[nimble hatch]

As the saying goes 'in an ideal world' or in the English legal system, the 'reasonable man' test

[devout turtle]

our investors lawyers said that our investment agreement was the best contract he had ever read.

[nimble hatch]

Helps give clarification

[devout turtle]

this was because, like our team contracts, it was written to take account of both sides of the agreement, and meet both sets of needs

[nimble hatch]

Well dude I like your style

Not going to lie

[devout turtle]

if you contact a lawyer and ask for a contract, he'll usually write it from your POV, and this can lead to an extended debate with the other side to develop one they are prepared to sign

which costs a fortune in legal costs

[nimble hatch]

Youre* Speaking from alot of experience, many of the things I already know, but have learnt some things in this interaction, as km sure others will also and take heed

[devout turtle]

when you work in a $100m law firm, like i did, you don't mess with the clients time like that, you write an even contract that gets the agreement signed faster

and which promotes harmonious working

and not a combative relationship

[nimble hatch]

That the contracts I made also

[devout turtle]

it still protects your interests against all assaults

[nimble hatch]

With financial bonuses as incentive

Fair, clear, and incentive

[devout turtle]

yes, finance terms need to be crystal clear

and robust in covering all eventualities

all the "what-ifs"

we had chartered accountants with international law expertise go over our contracts and it really helped

for example

if you state in your sub-contract that your are paying royalties

this requires you under UK law (our jurisdiction) to withhold tax for each subcontractor

that would be a massive legal minefield and pee off everyone

and cost us a fortune in accountancy fees

so we state that your work for us is royalty free andthat we pay you a share of profits based on your hours worked

and so we avoid that minefield completely

[nimble hatch]

i knew ownership of royalties is paramount, but didnt know that on the tax issu

accountant fees in the thouands?

[devout turtle]

we paid a few grand for that (and a lot of other) advice

[nimble hatch]

damn, thats crazy

minefield your right

[devout turtle]

it will save us tens of thousands

thats why im happy to share knowledge, to maximise the effect of this burden of cost we took on

[nimble hatch]

oh yeah

no doubt

[devout turtle]

i've shared our contract with other potential DLC teams

[nimble hatch]

this is a great discussion

and alot of people will see it

so the length of the discussion is justified

[devout turtle]

i hope so, people can just skip to the end if they don't like to read it

im happy to help any DLC team with advice in direct message

[nimble hatch]

lol theyre too perfect to need to read it because they already know better than us (PS if this sentence applies to you, check yourself and evaluate lol)

[devout turtle]

dont poke that bear lol

[nimble hatch]

too late, im now running

lol

your right though, thats the kind of attention im not looking to attract

[devout turtle]

there's also a risk of a withholding tax payable by bohemia in the czech republic, which should not be paid according to bohemias team

[nimble hatch]

oh god

thats bad

[devout turtle]

so we proceed on the assumption of 0% tax

[nimble hatch]

real bad

[devout turtle]

but we prepare for it in our contracts

in germany its much higher than UK

so if your team is based there, you might choose to found your company instead in the UK to offset this risk

[nimble hatch]

21 years really has put you in good stead, good sir

[devout turtle]

luckily brexit has no impact upon it as the trade terms between UK and CZR were established prior to joining the EEC/EU

[nimble hatch]

thats very fortunate

indeed

[devout turtle]

this kind of stuff would boggle most peoples minds

they just wanna make a cool game right?

[nimble hatch]

lol thats it

[devout turtle]

but getting reliable, well researched advice at the start is very very important

[nimble hatch]

i studied law and history for a few years so understand what your saying

when was a teen

[devout turtle]

having any idea about law is useful

and not seeing it as distasteful

a lot of guys see lawyers as neck-biting vampires

[nimble hatch]

well thats what going to happen if you brush them to the side

[devout turtle]

whereas the right lawyers will protect your teams best interests for everyones future security and happiness

[nimble hatch]

that thing you thought you didnt need or could ignore comes back and bites you, in the neck, funnily enough, with fangs, and, sucks your money ahemblood

[devout turtle]

exactly

[sinful cape]

so you wrote a completely new contract or how do I have to understand this?

[devout turtle]

once we release, all our finances go through our chartered accountants software and team

so we are hands-off the money completely

[nimble hatch]

thats a big stress releaser

[devout turtle]

also means we have 100% confidence there's no funny business

like me paying my wife some large fees

[nimble hatch]

oh yh, accountants also have to be transparent on transactions

so this helps

[devout turtle]

chartered ones have a reputation to uphold

[nimble hatch]

yeah, 100^

[devout turtle]

they will throw you out on your ass the moment you ask them to do something fishy

securing their services is like a job interview for a law firm

[nimble hatch]

thats a good Point of view

[devout turtle]

they background check you to the max

[nimble hatch]

i like that

[devout turtle]

it gives my team a level of trust

[nimble hatch]

confidence also

[devout turtle]

that i do not need to justify

[nimble hatch]

and payment upon completion

also gives further stability

and a level of flexibility

a high level* of flexibility

[devout turtle]

well we all share the hit if we dont break even

[nimble hatch]

collective

[devout turtle]

each person receives the same % of their total fee

[nimble hatch]

well, its great aswell

[devout turtle]

and if we never break even we all write off the remainder of our invoices

shared risk, shared reward

[nimble hatch]

covering all bases

like u said earlier

scary, but necessary

proact, not react

[devout turtle]

importantly, in the contract each of us agrees that we can never demand *full payment unless the company has 100% funds to pay everyone.

[nimble hatch]

stability and security very important

[devout turtle]

this protects the company from a run onthe bank which could bankrupt it

[sinful cape]

ok, so you are talking about "personal contracts" between you and your people

bit hard to follow the conversation right now

[devout turtle]

yeah. it means i can accrue $1m+ in debts without any risk of insolvency

[nimble hatch]

its just about covering all bases so those reading this can take heed really

[devout turtle]

so that we as a team can achieve our goal

[sinful cape]

it makes sense for huge teams I guess. it's just a question of how big the usual cdlc team is

[devout turtle]

any team should protect itself from insolvency risk, or unlimited liabilities

those two are fundamental

[sinful cape]

I still have a hard time imagining the generic cdlc to make a million bucks

[devout turtle]

most BI DLCs made many millions i imagine

[sinful cape]

BI dlcs maybe, but I dont see them as equals with cdlc tbh

[devout turtle]

with 5.5m game owners it's not unforseeable for a CDLC to sell 200,000 copies

[sinful cape]

at least for orange DLC we can roughly calculate the revenue because the sale numbers are public

[devout turtle]

say it's sold at $15

that's $3m

[nimble hatch]

then if you add the discretional CDLC cost (BIS discretion), the profit gained canbe calculated

[devout turtle]

DLC team would receive 32.5% of that = approx $1m

[sinful cape]

minus steam, minus 50% BI, minus taxes, there goes that million quickly :p

[nimble hatch]

more often than not, the higher the risk, the higher the reward

and there is some risk that just cannot be eliminated, e.g time is risk

[devout turtle]

there is no corporation tax to pay if you dont make profit

only personal income taxes

and the whole supply chain from Valve to Bohemia to us to our subs is "free of VAT"

Valve pays sales taxes

[sinful cape]

do we know how much GM sold so far?

[devout turtle]

that's not one for me to speculate upon

i'll talk about generic issues only

[sinful cape]

players might as well burn out from cdlc quickly, and the later you are to the party, the less you will get out of it

[devout turtle]

yeah none of us are doing this for the money

we have stories to tell

[nimble hatch]

yeah moneys a bonus, not the primary motivator

[devout turtle]

and a commitment to our art

[nimble hatch]

we want to have a more complete arma experience

[devout turtle]

and if we can make a decent payday, then great

[nimble hatch]

and some of us have taken on the responsbility to act upon our wishes,

[devout turtle]

we're also securing a massive IP base to make future games with

[nimble hatch]

oh yeah no doubt, great point

^^

[devout turtle]

and building a strong team to do that

[sinful cape]

I dunno. it can ride you in some deep shait if you carelessly spend lots of money on the development process

[devout turtle]

only if you have a cashflow

we don't

[nimble hatch]

exactly, lexx you should read earlier into the conversation to have that point addressed tbf

it was covered

[devout turtle]

it's harder to create a team based on promises

Lexx pays his team

so we have different approaches

[sinful cape]

yup.

[nimble hatch]

i mean if it works, it works

theres many ways to do one job, right?

[sinful cape]

for me it is primarily about getting stuff done. and I only spend the money I can - that means, no credits, loans, etc. that's just too big of a risk

[devout turtle]

yeah, answering your earlier question, i developed our contract based on bohemias, because there are many factors which must be passed on from publisher to IP creator, but added large sections covering our teams processes

[nimble hatch]

Lexx i dont know anything about you or your arrangements, and have no intention of wanting to know, but i would say is, dont ever get too stubborn on a decision once already made, sometimes circumstances change, but weigh the pros and cons and, research and make sure to use the 7 p's before changing a decision, especially if you have the time to make a well educated decision

not every decision has to be in that moment, decision, decisive

sometimes you have to flow like water, sometimes you have to take the form of the object the water is put in, but only for so long, - (extract from quote from bruce lee)

[devout turtle]

yeah i use a soft approach that gets gradually tougher and tougher, like a yielding body in t'ai chi

if you push past a certain point it's all yang man lol

but taking your point, if you let up a little the Yin starts coming back into play

[sinful cape]

well, my top priority right now is to get stuff done to a level where all that is left to do is polishing. :p polishing phase is the best phase.

[devout turtle]

light at the end of the tunnel is a great light to enjoy

[sinful cape]

well, for me at least. I know many people hate it and just want to do new stuff

[devout turtle]

im only her jabbering because i worked stupid hours this weekend and i need some mental space

[nimble hatch]

Eggbeast has a great point, i think you mentioned it in an earlier conversation before this one, that you do QA as an ongoing process, polishing as you go, i support this method more

[sinful cape]

it can slow you down hard

[nimble hatch]

yes

but these issues must be addressed at one point

[devout turtle]

depends on team size/ exposure to risk of poor workflows

[nimble hatch]

if you polish as you go, im doing this method already, as you get nearer completion, you know youve dotted your i's and crossed your t's, and no need to backtrack

[devout turtle]

in a big team, with people unfamiliar with the workflow, regular checks are better - we've learned this to our cost

[sinful cape]

imo if you "polish as you go", you tend to polish twice, because you still have to go over everything again later

[devout turtle]

personally im a 90% guy. i'll carry the ball to the 90 yard line, and pass it.

[sinful cape]

but yes, it is ofc depending on team size

[nimble hatch]

well yeah, but the second phase of polishing may just cause massive headache

and stress and big stretches of time lost

[devout turtle]

but for others they get it 90% and i step in and take it over the line

even then our beta team find so many issues we didnt forsee

[nimble hatch]

yeah

[devout turtle]

so we just keep going

but yeah you need your asset base in game fast

classnames set up

and good to test

[nimble hatch]

i cant lie im using these processes already, lexx, when i first started, i thought the same, QA, at the end, then i got advice off others and changed the game plan

[devout turtle]

even if a vehicle is a white box

[nimble hatch]

as the financial costing or collateral to make the decision change at that time was negligible

[devout turtle]

what we struggle with is finding reliable testers

[sinful cape]

I mean, I'm not saying you should not look at your stuff while you work on it. what I mean with polishing is really polishing / getting it release ready. ofc you still do QA mid-dev.

[devout turtle]

so many guys will sign up but not turn up

which is a shame

yeah i agree on that Lexx, people show me pics all the time saying why is this bit of the vehicle flying around? and i'm like "don't worry we'll do it in a clean sweep in a few weeks"

[sinful cape]

in all my years of doing this I never found a good tester. :p if someone comes to you and says he will test for you, what it really means is he wants to play the game early and that's it :p

[devout turtle]

this lol

[nimble hatch]

bruh

lol

[devout turtle]

we have a solid core though now

but it took AGES to build up

at least a year

[tepid lance]

Finding good reliable testers is really really difficult. Within the game dev industry QA is usually looked down upon by the developers, because usually the only interaction they have is a one-way street of "your stuff is broken, fix it". That can sour the relationship further. For GM we were super lucky to find two trustworthy people to help us with the content as we went to prevent the buildup of any large piles, but ultimately during the final stretch it's all hands on deck to validate the testing done so far in release configuration. Some would say its double the work for nothing. 😄

[devout turtle]

amen

we have an amazing workhorse in Maarten, our QA manager

and a couple of paid teenagers who work for him

and then about 100 people who can test, of which 10-20 will turn up at one point or another during testing

BI also pop in for a look every now and then

[nimble hatch]

So how do you guys, especially at the latter stages, what do you use to collect feedback, and how do you process this info? e.g high/low priority, what platform etc do u use?

[devout turtle]

how does feedback go now mondkalb? is it more forgiving from the customer base?

as at the start is was unfairly harsh for you guys

phabricator is a good platform if you cant afford/ be bothered with JIRA

it has all the programmable possibilities to make it function almost exactly like JIRA without the fees

personally i use a pencil and notepad to track my stuff

although once every few weeks i'll blast all my tickets

in terms of priorities, these are built in to the software

although i tend to drop burning priorities into team channels after testing sessions directly

[red saddle]

Within the game dev industry QA is usually looked down upon by the developers, because usually the only interaction they have is a one-way street of "your stuff is broken, fix it".
I love my QA person tho, he's saving me SO much time by testing complicated stuff for me :3

[tepid lance]

We use an internal spreadsheet that we allocate all issues into. It makes reporting super quick and easy. Usually the biggest obstable to reporting bugs is the interface and overhead involved in filing a bug. The Feedbacktracker came too late for us, BI only set it up for GM a month after release, so we're mostly relying on our discord's feedback channels. There we can directly followup with issues for more detail if needed, and also provide a much needed feedback to the community that the issue has indeed been seen, triaged and is being handled.

From what I gather now a year later is that generally the haters for "paid mod = sucks" have left, and the users are happy with tons of new free content and the fact that we as the developers listen and action community feedback as much as possible.

[devout turtle]

you have to be able to select "won't fix" or "not relevant" in the QA ticket to stay sane lol

that's great man. really cool to hear.

refreshing even

[sinful cape]

paid mods = sux will be back with the next cdlc :>

[tepid lance]

Oh yes, triaging bugs is very important, some reports are actually feature-requests, so they go into a different spreadsheet. 😄

[devout turtle]

that's a point i hadnt considered yet. feature requests.

we're so heads down making our content

gonna be sweet to have our first "feature request"

and then not so sweet when the drop becomes a downpour lol

exciting times

[tepid lance]

Dealing with feature requests will be mostly a communication task to handle, since you basically can neither confirm nor deny anything 😄 If you say you want to do it it will be misunderstood as "confirmed for version xyz", and then this builds false expectation. Ultimately things can only be announced/presented once BI's QA greenlit them.

Thats the reason why so far our two major updates came with lots of surprise additions. Personally I think that keeps it interesting for the community around GM as well. 🙂

So the usual response to "Will XYZ be in?" is this:

https://tenor.com/view/barackobama-talks-press-con-maybe-classified-gif-11864017

[devout turtle]

making everything from scratch is a bit of a nightmare, this is why no other DLCs have been announced yet lol. you guys had a massive headstart with GM iirc.

[sinful cape]

well, I was known as the destroyer of all fun, because I shot down all feature requests in past projects

[devout turtle]

that's a good point about non-disclosure.

so much you want to say, but can't

[nimble hatch]

Lexx the fun Destroyer

lol

[sinful cape]

players dont want you to be realistic about stuff. most dont understand what kind of work a "small" feature request is

[devout turtle]

a good reason to have cool-headed reliable people fronting the DLC team

[tepid lance]

We worked for a few years already on content that we liked for fun and as a hobby only, mostly hidden from the community because for Arma 2 we got burnt by content leaks and asset theft from our sources. That, paired with the -at the time- upcoming life scene that monetized content without permission, led us to essentially go underground.

We only announced the project to the public in october 2017, and a week later BI announced their 3rd party initiative. It was a perfect fit 😄

[devout turtle]

a fortuitous event 😉

[nimble hatch]

to be fair, you GM guys maneouvred the arma scene quite well

[tepid lance]

Once we had the approval to go in as CDLC we started with the un-fun parts of fleshing out symmetric content, which meant building content we weren't so super interested in. Like for example I had zero interest in building russian small arms, but we needed them. 😄

[devout turtle]

we were working on a hollywood production which went south, so we had the company set up and the team mostly assembled and were working on jets dlc with bohemia, so had a good insight into how to do it. but to create everything from scratch is a massive undertaking

[tepid lance]

Creating everything from scratch to a consistent and high standard is absolutely a tough task. Looking forward to seeing what the next CDLC will be and bring. 🙂

[nimble hatch]

thats the thing with creativity isnt it, you have a massive initial vision, which has to be reviewed and made smaller to suit the confines

[devout turtle]

what makes me happy right now is having a good 50 team mates who deliver quality reliably and regularly. that in itself was our biggest hurdle to overcome

[sinful cape]

kinda wish for smaller cdlc tho. everything right now seems so big

[devout turtle]

we have to go at it at this scale because we didn't have a 5 year head-start and we want to scale alongside other DLCs

[tepid lance]

With the restrictive policy of optional-content-only, it'll have to be essentially a stand-alone thing to be worthwhile, IMO.

[sinful cape]

only if you take multiplayer into account. personally I dont give a duck about mp

[devout turtle]

yeah, or a campaign focus

we see it as building a niche for future publishing opportunities

to continue on and tell more stories

rather than a one-off money grab

[tepid lance]

https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/211229-global-mobilization/
This was the original announcement of GM as a mod project, you can see there that the west side was fairly well fleshed out at the time, but the east was nearly empty. All this still had to be done, and the west-side content re-done to be of better quality and standardized.

[nimble hatch]

guys, there is also another effect here, the end effect of arma 3, will dictate the arma franchise for the next enw many years, not to mention the approach of other games, that may not even be within the same genre, but share some general aspects

[sinful cape]

yup

[nimble hatch]

there will be a very positive ripple effect

[sinful cape]

once a4 is out, I dont give a3 more than a year

(it will still sell ofc, but not as much as before)

[devout turtle]

well you guys did an outstanding job of creating your east faction so fast

terrain is the biggest overhead though i think

[tepid lance]

Thats true, Arma 3 just celebrated its 7th release anniversary. It's an aging platform. Between the release of OFP (Now called Arma Cold War assault) and ArmA (first arma game) there were only 5 years of a gap.

[devout turtle]

as the tools are so shit

[nimble hatch]

yes, but lets talk about that, there is no point releasing a4 or even entertaining it, if a3 cdlc program brings hundreds of amazing new features, complete the game, and bring financial benefit to all involved, esp a4, then only then, should we really be entertaining a4

[devout turtle]

nononono that's all wrong.

[nimble hatch]

BUT, sorry

i forgot to mention

[devout turtle]

if BI is working on a follow-on game, it will have invested millions into it. they would release that when they are ready to, and as early as possible, to stem the (cash) bleeding

irresepctive of any CDLC projects wishes or needs

[nimble hatch]

arma 4 should be in secret production, while all of this going on, and use time to its advantage, so there is no major time gap or ridiculous hype train that causes pressures on BIS

[devout turtle]

and that is right and acceptable and immutable

[nimble hatch]

aswell as cash flow like egg said

[sinful cape]

well, a4 will release at latest once BI runs out of money again :p

same as EA arma3

[nimble hatch]

but if CDLC is a success, (and i have every confidence it will) BIS should have no issue with A4 funding streams

[devout turtle]

they must be doing ok. making $58m in sales last year

[nimble hatch]

steam sales, GM release, and thats just the start

[devout turtle]

dayZ must have made $100m+

so i cant see a company of 400 (maybe $12m annual salary costs) with that much recent income running out of money in any reasonable dev cycle

it's likely much tighter than that, due to valve and other developer costs, and investments in other platforms

but still, not a harsh environment

[nimble hatch]

yeah, especially look at now, off the top of my head, there are two influential points to take into account

• The amount of unconfirmed CDLCs in progress, for how many years
• And the new video gaming background of battle royale, especially large scale maps, and room for maneouver and long range combat etc etc (E.g warzone), there is a MASSIVE potential customer base to be snatched up! by BIS and then CDLC'S

[sinful cape]

amount of cdlc doesnt really matter, imo, as all of them could still fail

[nimble hatch]

its a no brainer and perfect timing, no point shooting anyone in the foot

i like to believe the glass is half full, and thats the approach when leading, im not starting something to not finish it, thats regret, and regrets the worst feeling

[sinful cape]

huge terrains delivered by cdlc is also something I dont believe in... simply because I have yet to see a huge a3 terrain that didn't look bad :p

[nimble hatch]

Lexx you think the glass is half empty

optimism is key

[sinful cape]

I try to be realistic :p

[nimble hatch]

and a driver

[devout turtle]

realism also

[nimble hatch]

thats what they always say

until the optimist achieves, and the realists are dumbfounded

sometimes you just to go against the grain and achieve, thats greatness, thats results, not comfortable and no growth

[devout turtle]

and i do agree 20km terrains are almost impossible to do well given the asset demands and the timetables, but especially the tools

[sinful cape]

making a new terrain is lots of work and very expensive. making it look good is also a factor.

[tepid lance]

P E R F O R M A N C E 🙂

I'd like to think with Weferlingen we managed the balance of size and performance quite well.

[devout turtle]

AI pathing seems to be a much bigger factor than model count/ scene complexity

ever wondered why BI doesn't do rivers?

put a group of AI next to it and a waypoint on the opposite bank, and watch server FPS take a nose dive

[nimble hatch]

terrains i can understand, are a big ? looming over it, but that depends on whole project dependance on the map, or the impact, and timescales/dev cycle, like whats already been stated

AI IMO is alot more important than a terrain

[tepid lance]

I have a timelog somewhere on the hours spent on Weferlingen. in the end I think it was easily 8-10h per settlement. We've got 49 of those. 😄

[devout turtle]

a lot of stuff for terrains requires feedback tracker tickets to help out

I can't give any details due to not being announced let alone released, but i can say if i was making a terrain, i'd expect to spend something in the region of 40,000 hours on it.

[sinful cape]

I have probably added +3.5k hours to my steam a3 play ticker since the whole thing started in 2017

[nimble hatch]

ive heard minimum 10,000 hours on it

and the saying is you must 10,000 on any craft to become a master

so, that in perspective, sounds absolutely crazy

[sinful cape]

I guess that involves making new 3d models?

[nimble hatch]

lol

[devout turtle]

my figure would be for terrain builder work only

[sinful cape]

because making a new terrain alone with existing assets really shouldn't take that amount of time.

[devout turtle]

a lot depends on your approach. if you want areas to be interesting, you need to spend time on them, then test gameplay and tactical situations and go back and improve them

[nimble hatch]

AI improvement id but as more of a priority over terrains

[devout turtle]

not in scope

[nimble hatch]

wdym?

[devout turtle]

that needs engine leve laccess

[nimble hatch]

well, yh

theres some guys looking at this issue, which is kind of cool

[devout turtle]

we'd like t orewrite the entire thing forsure lol

but thats another wishlist item

the netcode is key for future work

[sinful cape]

but 40k hours is over 4 years of work. not including new 3d model creation time in that... and sorry, but i question that number :p

[devout turtle]

DM me about it

[sinful cape]

unless we are talking about some huge terrain size here

[devout turtle]

it's a good estimate of real timescales for a detailed high fps terrain

4 years for one person, but you dont just have one if youre not insane

(sorry M, didntmean you there lol)

i think tanoa took 2 guys 2 years to make

so that's a similar figure

and i bet they had better tools than any CDLC

and more experience

[sinful cape]

nah, they use the same

[red saddle]

One of our terrain guys made himself custom blender tools that let him do terrain editing in blender or smth. #arma3_terrain will know about it

but its publicly available, maybe not the latest and greatest version tho

[vivid lynx]

this? https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/202768-blandscapetools-introduction/

[red saddle]

yes

[devout turtle]

TB needs a party option

to allow multiple people to commit to one project directly

[vivid lynx]

at least you can sorta do it via Zeus, X-Cam etc

[red saddle]

multiple people collab is so huge.
Even being able to just do 3DEN in multiplayer, to just place stuff together would be great :u

[vivid lynx]

and then autoimport it to TB with some autokey script 😛

[devout turtle]

yeah it's a new tool suite we need.

[vivid lynx]

we did it as PoC for some of the SFP terrains

[devout turtle]

one that doesn't crash every day

[vivid lynx]

it was very funny to have multiple people arrange gardens at once 😄

[red saddle]

I guess you could do a mod for 3DEN that replicates all actions done ( as the eventhandlers are available) over network

[vivid lynx]

at least back the x-cam had a lot of needed features or doing bulk insertion of fences etc

and the more "noobie" editors were fine with using zeus

the server just had some auto persistence with rolling backups

[red saddle]

Check out "Plopper" from Adanteh though, its great and might get even greater

[vivid lynx]

yeah, 3DEN got lots of improvements since then

I think we did this before the release of X-Cam even

the biggest hurdle was removing already added stuff

someone had to go into TB and remove it before the server and all clients could get an updated wrp

we did some testing of using a blank wrp world with all objects editable but... 😄

[red saddle]

Problem in terrain dev area compared to modelling/scripting I think is that there aren't enough real programmers in there doing stuff

Like, you can (I think it was already shown before) bridge Unreal Editor to do Arma 3 Terrains. it just needs developer effort to do it

[vivid lynx]

yeah, I saw some cool video about that the other day

but I couldn't find it

[red saddle]

I can probably do such a thing, but I don't do terrains, even if I tried I wouldn't have enough personal interested in it, and not even thinking about my free time

[devout turtle]

there's a lot of workarounds but TB is the queen bitch sitting in the center of the web. she can't be avoided, and she is a very fickle god

[vivid lynx]

as long as you can generate a wrp anything goes 😄

since the game doesn't really care about TB

[devout turtle]

we need Mike or someone else equally talented to make a new terrain tool oneday

[vivid lynx]

but many of the TB files are either readable or documented

like doing XML template generators

[devout turtle]

imagine a terrain tool with remote version control and merging functions and logs and selectable reversion capability?

[vivid lynx]

I think the biggest "hurdle" is having previewable 3d models

[devout turtle]

notto mention al lthe funky placement tools and adjustments, and duplicate management and other things

[vivid lynx]

especially for first party (bis arma 3) models

[devout turtle]

that too

[vivid lynx]

since messing around to much with p3d could be considered breach of contract

[tepid lance]

I minimized the amount of work done in TB extensively. I worked with adanteh on the Object placer and integrated my line-placer tool there, it used to be just a bunch of scripts that sorted out the rivers and powerlines for me. Majority of automated placement happened via QGIS where I generated the object.txt file via python. I cut out TerrainProcessor essentially entirely except for the road grading.

Only thorugh these automation "shortcuts" I was able to pull off the GM terrains plus all assets placed on it.

[devout turtle]

amazing work for one person.

truly

[tepid lance]

imagine a terrain tool with remote version control
Doesnt TB have the svn integration still available?

[devout turtle]

im not aware of it

[tepid lance]

I know that Visitor 3 had it, and Visitor 4, but maybe that was dropped for the TerrainBuilder version that eventually was released for Arma 3

[devout turtle]

a bit late for us to develop it in the immediate future, but we can go sniffing out the options

[red saddle]

I think to remember that I saw SVN in TB code, but maybe only old leftovers

[tepid lance]

Big sad part was that Vistior 3 actually had an API similar to O2 script, so you could automate tasks there, Visitor4/Terrainbuilder dropped that entirely 😄

[devout turtle]

we have an SVN god in our team, so i'll ask him to look at it when he has time

as it could help us and others

we find TB is very unstable

and a big part of working with it is managing your workspace so you can handle crashes

and not lose too much effort

[tepid lance]

I was truly blessed by not having had TB crash on me and thus lose data. But I think it was because i never spent too much time in TB at all 😄

[devout turtle]

a sensible policy

[tepid lance]

So even if it did crash, one would only have to revert to the last working version and re-integrate the newest changed data.

[red saddle]

If only TB was easy to compile so that I could actually fix things ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

I will try to get back into TB dev though and see if I can get some stuff fixed

[tepid lance]

At least TB is not MFC from hell 😄

[nimble hatch]

Who is the original creator of xcam?

[vivid lynx]

Silola

[knotty ore]

RE: SVN - there is this kind of a thing in TB

But no documentation as far as I know to go along with it

My 2 cents is that I doubt it would allow collaborative work inside TB though

For objects, maybe, but for heightmap I doubt that.

[devout turtle]

so layers could be managed in svn?

[arctic seal]

would be interesting to find out

[sinful cape]

embedded svn client

looks to me like you get the same effect if you just move the terrain files into a repo folder

[knotty ore]

I dont think there is any kind of take this part from this guys work and this part from this guys work

as there is no such division in the tool anywhere else

so it would just overwrite everyones work

TB inherently is single user program

[worldly lodge]

Majority of automated placement happened via QGIS where I generated the object.txt file via python. I cut out TerrainProcessor essentially entirely except for the road grading.
Important note on this is also that it allows you to stuff for different games.

If you make a solid automagic object placement script in QGIS then it doesnt matter you use it for Dayz, Arma 3 or some other thing

[knotty ore]

Only thing one might have trouble with external tools is that you cant use BI/mod models in them for accurate placement

but perhaps we start to digress from the topic of the channel. 😄

[sinful cape]

unless you make your 100% custom stuff :p

but i honestly doubt that will happen with cdlc. it's just too expensive.

[devout turtle]

tell me about it hehe

[red saddle]

If you add p3d support (basic support is pretty simple) to the tool you want to use, you can indeed use and render models in your tool

[vivid lynx]

but for first party assets that would be supporting odol p3ds

[red saddle]

yeah, thats what I was talking about

[vivid lynx]

isn't that kinda the thing that must not be talked about? 😛

[red saddle]

rendering? no

but probably not open source then

[sinful cape]

i mean, cdlcs probably get access to lots of this stuff

so unlike for the generic mod team, it's actually a realistic possibility

[devout turtle]

not really

but we do have tool devs in our team

and a shitload of motivation

[plucky magnet]

Motivation ist one of the most viable tools for success

[red saddle]

If they wanna do the rest of the stuff, I can probably help with a thing to load and render p3d's from pbo's in unreal. (no animations tho)
But needs to be closed source then, oof.

[sinful cape]

Motivation ist one of the most viable tools for success
@plucky magnet motivation is the worst. it comes and goes and is unreliable. the best tool for success is discipline. :>

[plucky magnet]

@plucky magnet motivation is the worst. it comes and goes and is unreliable. the best tool for success is discipline. :>
@sinful cape

Discipline is the most important I agree with you from my Military experience,
but if you have good superiors that know how to motivate a man/woman and how to keep motivation up, motivation will make any task much easier.

[worldly lodge]

I can probably help with a thing to load and render p3d's from pbo's in unreal.
This was my original hope for something like Blender / bLandscapeTools and in a way plopper too (Which is mostly Pythnon code these days aka supported in blender)

However inability to actually get reliable positioning or even loading of (binned) P3Ds at all basically meant /care for me

[mild rain]

😃 😃 😃 https://store.steampowered.com/app/1294440/Arma_3_Creator_DLC_CSLA_Iron_Curtain/

[red saddle]

If the code that takes poly's and displays it, I could only give geometry lod though, but that should be sufficient

[worldly lodge]

With inability I mean my own brain being too smooth, not that its technically impossible.

[hallow parrot]

Happy unveil CSLA Studios!

[solemn pelican]

Why are they making another CDLC that's cold war almost identical to the first CDLC?

I mean why would anyone choose to buy it?

[eager rock]

Well, it isn't BI making it

after all it is a Community DLC

both just happened to be in production

[red saddle]

BI isn't making it. And I think they also like GM started shortly before CDLC stuff was announced

[solemn pelican]

I understand that BI isnt making. What I mean it seems like its a DLC for CDLC

[karmic harness]

Why are they making another CDLC that's cold war
Meanwhile, in an alternate reality: Why are they making another CDLC that's near-futuristic, almost identical to Vanilla Arma 3 ?

[little rampart]

started shortly before cdlc was announced? wasnt csla started very soon after release of A3 ? pretty sure i seen a forum thread

[karmic harness]

At this point anything that anyone does for Arma 3 will be similar to something that's already been released either as a mod, as a CDLC or a DLC

[eager rock]

Might be time to open up a #csla channel

[solemn pelican]

My point is its fairly similar to the already release CDLC.

Like do a WW2 CDLC or Nam or Rhodesia

[little rampart]

from consumer perspective, it would be unfortunate however, if there are hypothetically 3-4 CDLC all having a lot of crossover in assets (AK's, M16, T-72, etc) - because it just means their additions are not of value to the player, PLUS all those CDLC creators did the same work on the same thing - waste of time

[eager rock]

I've heard rumours circulating around a Nam CDLC at least

[worldly lodge]

I actually think its cool that there's a "similar" DLC for one

Imo having a full fledged cold war setting is cooler than having random DLC that don't really connect much so you're basically limited to what's in that DLC

[little rampart]

yes its cool if you they can combine. But if its the case that when you combine them, you have 50% crossover (double items) then its not great

[sacred flint]

The new cdlc will also have the single player campaign?

[little rampart]

apparently

[pastel wraith]

crossover sure, but a czech ak and an east german or polish ak are not exactly the same thing, neither are the T-72 variants @little rampart

[little rampart]

we'll see whats in and what is not. Personally i dont think it will be interesting enough for me to buy

also, even if they are not the same - they are extremely similar to the point where they are practically (in actual use) identical apart from superfluous differences

[pastel wraith]

you could say exactly the same of many of the popular weapon mods within the community

[toxic coral]

yes but mods = free

[serene breach]

^

[pastel wraith]

so adding superfluous content is fine if its free?

[solemn pelican]

~yes

[toxic coral]

@pastel wraith yes

[little rampart]

you add it if you think its worth it to you. I would never use those mods that add 30 different M4's/ M16, or 50x the same BDU but with different camo

[pastel wraith]

do you use CUP?

[solemn pelican]

In this day and age most consumers besides COD players dont want to pay for a dlc that makes "what seems to them" like a different color AK

[little rampart]

i only use CUP terrain stuff

[ebon sedge]

Like do a WW2 CDLC or Nam or Rhodesia
Who knows what the other cdlc crews are working on @solemn pelican

[pastel wraith]

ok, second point would you complain if they didn't make them and you had to use GM

[little rampart]

i have GM, so its no problem for me - but yes it would be weird to not offer a complete package for the ones that only buy one cdlc

However the main point is, if the items are the same, in the same Game, its annoying if they are different items and different models

it certainly would be doable, if there is collaboration between cdlc teams

[pastel wraith]

that would also mean daisy-chaining, cdlc's behind other cdlc's

no single one could be a self contained package used without the others

[little rampart]

no it would mean that the same model and config is included in both packages

saving time and efford for the respective cdlc teams

[pastel wraith]

thats beginning to sound like a content licensing nightmare

[serene breach]

I don’t think that’s a good solution, I’d rather just not have overlapping themes/content 😛

[little rampart]

how do you not have overlapping themes/content if the same armies use weapons and vehicles for 30+ years some times

[serene breach]

2 Cold War dlcs

[lean sail]

How so? They both use assets from Arma 2... Just make CUP a dependency and they're done...
PS. no offense to the CDLC teams, but it does look a lot like "new terrain, old assets".

[little rampart]

cold war is between 1945 and 1990 - so if we have 1 cold war dlc, then there could be no other cdlc in that period 😄

[serene breach]

you understand what I’m saying lol, perhaps there will be considerable differences between GM and this one

The extend of that remains to be seen

[pastel wraith]

The Arma 2 data packs come with their own licence attached, creating content between however many CDLC teams want to feature that content would mean each one would have to agree with all other parties this could open the door to one team claiming the content and leaving the rest out, having said that, aren't all CDLCs published under a common licence

[red saddle]

CDLCs aren't published under a "license" really. They are all owned by developer/bohemia, no open license like the data packs and stuff

[little rampart]

a "common license" - yeah, one that doesnt allow modification

[pastel wraith]

i'll have to have another look but i remember a clause on the website when the CDLCs were announced around how the content could be used and the terms with Bohemia, that's roughly what i meant with that, those agreements would be fairly similar if not the same if im not entirely mistaken

[sinful cape]

if BI would allow inter-cdlc assets, they might as well allow the use of other DLC assets

(which is currently not possible)

which is why likely every cdlc is now adding their own AK/M even though it was already done with Apex

[red saddle]

yeah you can't share stuff between CDLC's as both downloads are optional

[little rampart]

IF they really wanted they could do a common library that comes with any of the downloads.
I can see it being logistically non-trivial. But for the end product it would be better

[pastel wraith]

not to mention the logistical aspect of having multiple groups with what in theory should be the same thing, but could be wildly different in practice, and with how arma inherits classnames could lead to some unintentional side-effects

[red saddle]

theoretically yeah. But then, not really worth it for just 2 CDLC's that share assets that are only somewhat similar (same name, but still different)

and one team might need to then agree to just use the other teams assets, instead of making their own, thinking their own would be better in some way. Could cause lots of disagreement and stuff

[little rampart]

or it could just work out if there is an understanding 🤷‍♂️

[vivid lynx]

there's some gap left until 100+ GB Modern Warfare install 😉

[little rampart]

if its clear from the get go that this is how its going to work out, then i think such agreements can be reached. When its imposed after the fact, then yeah, protectionism sets in.

primarily thinking of an A3 successor there...
starting CDLC opportunities as soon as possible after release - and also set more guidelines and stuff, so the CDLC dont feel like some thrown together mods, but integrate better into the game.

although it could hurt the modding community big time, if everything is done under wraps for the first 3-5 years (esp. in case of new engine, new tools)

[devout turtle]

oh lord what happened to this channel hehe

[karmic harness]

if its clear from the get go that this is how its going to work out, then i think such agreements can be reached.
Yeah but mind you that when you apply to BI (the "from the get to" moment in time) you don't know who else has applied and what is their idea for their own CDLC.
That and also the fact that different teams may work at a different pace, have different priorities, etc...

What if CDLC A and B agree to use the same AK model, made by B. Then it is decided that A will be released 6 months earlier than B, the AK model is not yet ready and B has more important things to work on atm?

[little rampart]

@devout turtle actual discussion 😛

[devout turtle]

i prefer monologues

[little rampart]

@stack the "dont know" can be solved easily. Establish base for communication and collaboration. Work out what the content of the package is, then identify overlap. Work out the importance of those items ("need to have" vs "nice to have" list) then decide who makes it.
If there is a will, there is a way.

if team A cant get their act together and delay AK model by 6 months, then team B will have to make their own - yeah. But that would be the exception and not the rule.

[pastel wraith]

if team A cant get their act together and delay AK model by 6 months, then team B will have to make their own - yeah. But that would be the exception and not the rule.
that effectively means blending them into one team, who can work with each other interchangebly, thats a rather tall order

[fiery sigil]

so the compatibility mod on the workshop will let anyone use the content of the CDLC, except the map?
Is it like the Arma 2 BAF DLC, where those who don't bought it play with low-res textures?

[little rampart]

as far as art assets go, not really. Its just "do i have to make it, or does someone else make it"

[pastel wraith]

but a weapon in arma isnt just an art asset

[little rampart]

80% of the work is art assets...

[red saddle]

so the compatibility mod on the workshop will let anyone use the content of the CDLC, except the map?
same as GM, probably.
Normal DLC restrictions

[hazy pumice]

Hmm... wonder whether those HouseBlock models I see in a pic on the Steam Store page will be opened up for the CDLC... that would be cool

[lean sail]

so the compatibility mod on the workshop will let anyone use the content of the CDLC, except the map?
Is it like the Arma 2 BAF DLC, where those who don't bought it play with low-res textures?
No, it works like the current DLC system.
If you have the Compat mod, you can see all assets in high quality and play on servers which use the CDLC. However you can not use the content from the CDLC (and get a "buy now" popup if you try to).
It does however allow you to check out everything (except for terrain) in the editor, and play on CDLC servers.

[little rampart]

Making art assets is time consuming, which means it is expensive
Therefore collaboration makes a lot of sense economically too, not just "we dont want messy editor"

[red saddle]

Btw CSLA has a youtube channel, with footage.

[hazy pumice]

Oh yeah, nice

[main ingot]

Tell me it's a joke guys. We just bought a Cold War DLC last year, we need to buy it again?

Like, come on.

[red saddle]

Don't need to buy anything you don't want

[hallow parrot]

Why you're forced to buy?

[main ingot]

I waited for these posts

[devout turtle]

http://csla-studio.blogspot.com/

[hazy pumice]

Personally I think that GM and CSLA are gonna complement each other very nicely

[main ingot]

Don't need to buy anything
You get the point fellas. I don't want to rain on CSLA parade but it kinda feels like buying the same DLC just split in two.

[sinful cape]

it has some cool assets tho

[little rampart]

if you care about czech stuff

[pastel wraith]

isn't arma a bit of a Czech creation?

[muted narwhal]

lol

[main ingot]

@sinful cape I agree, really love the screenshots. Problem is, I was able to convince only one friend to buy the GM.
No way I'm convincing anyone to buy GM and CSLA. I can make any missions I want but I'll have noone to play them with.

[sinful cape]

yeh, but tbh that same issue can happen with any other cdlc

[little rampart]

well something like nam is propably a bit more popular than czech military hardware (and admittedly a neat map from what i can see)

[sinful cape]

the limiting factor really is the asset use. for example, if i would want a t-72 in my campaign for whatever reason, i would have to make my own... bam, now we have 3 cdlcs with t-72 .....

[hazy pumice]

Let's not forget the addition of US Army Cold War assets...

[little rampart]

3? we only have 2 in total 😛

[hazy pumice]

Which add to the scenarios possible in GM ofc

[little rampart]

how many mods already added us army cold war stuff?

[hazy pumice]

And the map does look good from the videos on that youtube

[hallow parrot]

GM didn't have T-72s (yet), didn't it?

[muted narwhal]

the issues with cDLCs is that people have been spoiled already with a bunch of quality free mods

[sinful cape]

3? we only have 2 in total 😛
@little rampart so far :p

[little rampart]

@hallow parrot yes, but i was under the impression that they would have wanted to do one eventually

spoiled by a few quality mods, and a lot of A2 ports...

therefore 1980 US army to me is the least interesting to have in any scenario

[main ingot]

@sinful cape

yeh, but tbh that same issue can happen with any other cdlc
That's the problem I'm experiencing. I'm unable to play the CDLC I've already bought because nobody wants to buy it and now there's another CDLC which probably few people in community will buy.

[little rampart]

woudl have been usefull to have 1-2 years after A3 release. But now?

[sinful cape]

that would have been a patch nightmare :x

a3 changed so much.

and i had to fix my campaign / mission so often in these years :x

more than once i just wanted to ragequit, because something that always worked suddenly didnt anymore

[little rampart]

well, all mods you can get now did it, and you pay money for cdlc, soo....

[main ingot]

I wish they retained the blurry textures approach at least. Yes, it was super-confusing but at least you could have fun with the friends.
And all of my friends ended up buying all Arma 2 DLCs eventually.

[little rampart]

new idea - instead of low res DLC, play google advertising videos on those textures 😄

[solemn pelican]

I think BI needs to spend more stats in Intelligence and less in the perk Money Grab

[muted narwhal]

my dude, it isn't really BI's doing, is it now?

[red saddle]

BI doesn't really have much to do with it. They got a CDLC pitch that was good, and accepted it. I don't see any wrongdoing on their part

[little rampart]

"i refuse your suggestion of the existance of gray, there is only black and white in this world"

[solemn pelican]

^works for BI, doesn't see a problem.

[little rampart]

how many call of duties have you bought since A3 release? ^^ 😛

[pastel wraith]

i dont think that BI is responsible for CDLCs being similar to each other?

[hazy pumice]

And ofc no one is forced to buy it if they don't want to...

[little rampart]

they could say no, but why would they?

[red saddle]

All BI could've done here, is refuse a good CDLC pitch, because it is similar to a different pitch they got

[little rampart]

cdlc creators bear the risk of it flopping monetarily for them

[red saddle]

But why refuse money to the developers who invested over 7 years into their mod wanting to turn it into a CDLC?

As long its good content, I don't see any reason to not approve such a thing. If the players don't want to buy it or think its stupid, well they don't have to buy it

If players are salty that they didn't get some 8 years of hard work for free instead, then get outta here.

If you think this causes other CDLC's that you might like better to not be released, you're wrong.

[little rampart]

pepare to write that answer about 5000 times in the next weeks 😛

[main ingot]

If the players don't want to buy it or think its stupid, well they don't have to buy it
And from my experience, they aren't going to.

[karmic harness]

pepare to write that answer about 5000 times in the next weeks
Nah! Just set up the valhalla bot to do it for you and enjoy your free time 😉

[little rampart]

thats what i count as preparation

[red saddle]

I don't see why people would complain that others won't buy a CDLC, besides feeling sad for the developers that they don't get what they deserve

[muted narwhal]

And from my experience, they aren't going to.
@main ingot actually some people will always buy it. maybe not enough for MP games, but there is a large portion of people who don't really play MP anyways

[solemn pelican]

For the common customer they will look badly upon BI as its a BI released item whether or not its developed outside of BI team

[karmic harness]

And from my experience, they aren't going to.
I bought GM and literally never ran it, even once.
I will also buy the upcoming CDLC because I want the modders to get my money ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[solemn pelican]

@little rampart 0

[muted narwhal]

For the common customer they will look badly upon BI as its a BI released item whether or not its developed outside of BI team
@solemn pelican what would look badly?

[main ingot]

@red saddle @muted narwhal
People (me, that is) are complaining because the distribution strategy behind this entire CDLC thing throws a wrench into MP communities.
Fair point about SP though.

[muted narwhal]

GM managed to get compatibility patch for people who do not own it IRC

[little rampart]

and it was explicitly stated that the same would be done for csla

[somber ice]

^

[solemn pelican]

The fact they are releasing another DLC that was extremely similar to another already released DLC that was $30 and noone really bought into

[muted narwhal]

that's hardly true now, is it?

[red saddle]

and noone really bought into
X Doubt

[muted narwhal]

no one forces anyone to buy cDLCs, or DLCs for that matter

you do it if you wanna do it

i know i will

[cunning nacelle]

Do any large communities who play regularly use GM? I think it was just some event missions by AFI and such. The sales to me seem scattered and not aligned with any continuous MP usage, it will be a harder sell to people who bought GM and have it sitting around gathering dust.

[main ingot]

Speaking of small communities, it's usually a group of friends so if someone doesn't have something, people ain't playing that.

[somber ice]

I think TSB sometimes plays with the GM cdlc

[red saddle]

I heard Gruppe Adler plays with it, but maybe not on the terrain, and with the compatability data for non-owners

[muted narwhal]

i really wonder how cDLCs sales would have been if BI started the program earlier, and if there would be less mods overall

[red saddle]

Everyone was basically screaming for cold war like stuff at early A3, that would probably have been awesome timing back then

[little rampart]

yeah - which is why i#m saing, for next Arma - start a lot earlier with this

[red saddle]

And doubt many people would complain if both releases were like 2-3 years apart

[sinful cape]

hehe just shows that you shouldnt necessarily listen to the loudest voices 🙂

[little rampart]

doesnt come without tradeoffs. If most modding active people are tied up in cdlc - then very little stuff will make it into public -> newcomers will have it even more difficult to get into modding.

[sinful cape]

everyone was always screaming cold war, now they get their damn cold war and it isnt right either!111

[little rampart]

its 8 years (?) after A3 release...

[lean thunder]

bit late lol

[somber ice]

09.2013 I think

[pastel wraith]

quite a lot of us are still here though

[muted narwhal]

@little rampart to be honest, if modding is important for BI, maybe they should support it internally more themselves, rather than have older farts deal with that

[little rampart]

true...

[red saddle]

@little rampart 7th anniversary was few weeks ago

[cunning nacelle]

Quite a lot of us are here using quality free mods to account for a3s setting

[little rampart]

im too old to remember dates or events 😛

[muted narwhal]

welcome to the senile club

[red saddle]

just read A3 twitter 👀

[muted narwhal]

@red saddle the comments or what?

[little rampart]

what is a twitter? sounds dirty

[red saddle]

no the posts

Like the post about anniversary

[muted narwhal]

ahhh, yeah, not everyone is #socialmediasavvy

[hazy pumice]

Definitely looking forward to combining GM and CSLA for a Fulda Hof Gap mission

[tepid lance]

Certainly a great combination to be had. I'm excited to see how CSLA content will interact.

[nimble hatch]

CSLA Iron Curtian CDLC mod#2, great work BI for seeing the massive opportunity in support from community, and GM (Aswell as most recent) CSLA for the work they put in, its great to see the community put so much work into a game and boost its replayability, even after 7 years since release 💪

[sinful cape]

well, i'm kinda hype now

the idea of more a3 content usually excites me

doesnt really matter what it is

[stoic edge]

Do CDLC creators use internal tools or are they limited to available public tools?

[knotty ore]

It is said BI uses same tools.

[wraith sleet]

Does CSLA have a discord channel?

[hazy pumice]

See the pin in the #csla_iron_curtain channel

[red saddle]

They use same public tools as everyone else. But on demand get special tools if needed and depending on my time

[knotty ore]

Since there are all kinds of community made tools made its not impossible CDLC teams make some for themselves too

[tepid lance]

Such a new luxuirous service that Dedmen provides. 🙂

Should've happened earlier... 🙃

[karmic harness]

Dedmen's Services™️ - sounds threatening, tbh

[red saddle]

Dedmen Services™️
Offers reach from live particle effect editors to custom pbo encryption for safe beta tests
Get 50% off by sending Dedmen 500€ now

[karmic harness]

Sooo... there is no "dead" in "Dedmen Services™️"? 🤨

[knotty ore]

do you accept #350?

[sinful cape]

3,50 is all i can do

[arctic seal]

#350
not more, not less

[little rampart]

3.6 not great, not terrible

[hoary ridge]

"CSLA Studio plan to make compatibility data for non-owners of the DLC available via the Arma 3 Steam Workshop" why cant such a function be added to the a3 launcher? for example: if you aint got the dlc it still shows it but adds a *Free/Lite next to it and if you choose to activate it you download the workshop edition. Would make it more player friendly and people can choose themselves if they want more GB of arma 3 or not.

[ebon sedge]

I think having something like that added to the launcher has been requested a few times

[knotty ore]

people can already choose if they want the compatibility data?

[hoary ridge]

they can? as not owners of gm on a3 launcher?

[knotty ore]

well ye since its on the workshop

you either subsrcibe to it or not

[ebon sedge]

What he means is to have it integrated into the DLC section of the launcher

[hoary ridge]

right

workshop is nice, but a3 launcher would be more player friendly

[knotty ore]

well that part is separate from the being able to choose

[hoary ridge]

no need to explain every player how to download mods..

[knotty ore]

educating people should be priority really.

[hoary ridge]

well user friendly is what the a3 launcher was built for, so such a feature would be really nice

[red saddle]

yeah, would be nice to have

But.

Letting you download compat data when its required.
Launcher detects if DLC is required by the terrain, and the compat data won't help you join DLC terrains

[hoary ridge]

well, thats the same with tanoa or livonia.

[red saddle]

yeah

[hoary ridge]

but players still would be able to join the same server

and server owners wouldnt need to create 3 different servers and split their community

[knotty ore]

why tho

[hoary ridge]

a lite version without the map, if they want the map or the watermarks gone, buy it

[knotty ore]

server runs 1 mission at at time

[hoary ridge]

hell i bought all dlcs, on release.

uh.. wasteland and altis life are bigger then those escape and coop missions

[knotty ore]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[hoary ridge]

its just a idea, bohemia will decide at the end

[red saddle]

I would like it I guess, but unless there's really high demand for it (which there currently isn't) probably a won't do

prefer investing my time into making Arma itself better, rather than saving players a couple clicks outside of Arma

[sinful cape]

seems a bit like fluff considering how easy it is to subscribe to mods on the workshop

I guess the only thing that could be improved is how fast you can get to that mod

heh best would probably some kind of splitter in the interface. if you own the cdlc, the launcher shows you the cdlc. if you dont own it, the launcher shows you the lite data. :>

[steel valley]

As long as csla is smaller than gm. 30gb was waaaay to big. This appears to have significantly less vehicles and equipment than gm so hopefully smaller and cheaper.

[mild solstice]

Sound files and texture resolution are usually the biggest contributor to overall file size. IIRC GM typically uses higher res textures than most BI assets, and has several complete sets of German radio protocols, plus the campaign stuff

[tepid lance]

GM never was 30GB. 21GB initially, and ~23,9ish now after 1.2.

[devout turtle]

terrain assets do eat data

especially if nicely designed

[vivid lynx]

my GM folder weighs in at 24GB 🙂

[main ingot]

This appears to have significantly less vehicles
I'd say CSLA has more vehicles than GM does, judging from the screens.

And the more complex map on top of that.

||If only somebody would play with all this||

[steady gale]

he might have been talking about unique vehicles

[main ingot]

That's what I mean

[steady gale]

as in, types that haven't been done before

[ebon sedge]

I just want to have that thingy on the left, it looks cool https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/1294440/ss_9a5957cb1f7ea781f011edb4ac7fcf0a15c3661c.1920x1080.jpg?t=1600778560

[main ingot]

I got an impresison that he was talking about amount vehicles from the disk space usage perspective. 🤔 I got an impression that CSLA has more unique models where GM mostly has variations of the base model.

[steady gale]

I imagine CSLA ought to be smaller, GM has ridiculously high res textures on most of their vehicles

[ebon sedge]

I also really like that we're actually getting some new artillery with CSLA (seen in the middle there) https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/1294440/ss_e441080db07c462ec6cbc852a33c036bc2b6646b.1920x1080.jpg?t=1600778560

[main ingot]

While the more content the better, I find that arty vehicles are rarely used overall and when they are used, they're used as a props to destroy.

[ebon sedge]

Imo thats mainly because artillery units arent very fun to play tho (atleast in vanilla arma)

when you get a mod like ITC land systems you can actually have some real fun with arty units

[muted narwhal]

@tepid lance do you have 4k textures in GM?

irc, one rule was to have nothing above 2k

[tepid lance]

Yes, 4k textures are used.

GM has 75 vehicles currently (including variants, not counting texture versions).

Excluding minor variants for argument's sake (I.e difference of Leopard 1A1 vs Leopard 1A5, but counting Leopard 1A3 as extra due to significant turret change, or not counting supply truck variants) we arrive at a unique vehicle count of 30 new vehicles.

Remember that these are all fully original assets made from scratch by us. 🙂

[ebon sedge]

fancy

[knotty ore]

Can never satisfy everyone with textures. Some complain res isn't enough and not enough detail, then some complain of file size when high resolution textures are used.

[tepid lance]

We didn't want to slave our content to the 2013 standards and rather have them suitable for future uses where 4k is more standard.

[red saddle]

plus downscaling textures is incredibly easy. upscaling not really

[radiant vortex]

30 unique originally made vics? Goddamn GM is packing heat

[devout turtle]

we made jets dlc 4k, and tanks dlc followed suit. so why not eh?

GM tanks look amazing in 4k. really lovely artwork.

best assets in arma right now imho

30 vehicles is a lot indeed. What's the count excluding static weapons?

[tepid lance]

That is excluding static weapons. 🙂

[devout turtle]

gobsmacked

for only 2 (or a handful of guys) to make that many vehicles, is frankly astonishing

[tepid lance]

It did come at a tough cost in personal free time, and IMO was only possible because we can focus 99% of the time on production, and just 1% on figuring things out/fiddling around, which is normally the big project delay factor.

[devout turtle]

yes i see. dealing with artists unfamiliar to your workflow did not derail you every day from your focus... oh to have that kind of simplicity...

[muted narwhal]

@tepid lance cheers

[steady gale]

as much as I like high res textures, I'm not sure if it was worth the file size increase with GM, since the large file size seems to throw a lot of people off, especially if they would be using the workshop compatibility addon

[devout turtle]

2k vs 4k - hands down i'll take 4k any day.

the difference is like 2015 vs 2020

1TB SSDs are cheap enough these days

and who hasn't got an A3 install of <100GB?

so an extra 20 is nothing really to worry about

notfor a game you play for6 years or more

compared to loads of games you install, play and probably barely ever return to

[steady gale]

tell that to the people who don't use GM because they don't want to install 20GB for things they might not always use

for me personally it doesn't really matter, I just have GM installed despite that I don't remember the last time I even loaded it up

[knotty ore]

they would not install it anyway

[hallow parrot]

Who doesn't want to buy extra storages for a game that played for 5k hours already? 😉

[steady gale]

a lot of people apparently

I've seen multiple people in the 2 groups I play with say they're not gonna use GM because of the file size

[undone kayak]

I wonder if something like a "HD Texture DLC" would be possible, like many games do
Tho then you have all textures twice I'd guess, and use up even more space :p

[hallow parrot]

RV4 can't handle textures more than 4096x4096 IIRC, so...

[steady gale]

that would be interesting, have base GM with slightly lower res textures and then have a workshop addon that has higher res textures, but I'm not sure how well that would work with arma addons and yeah, that would create the issue that you would then have both sets of textures on your PC which would result in an even higher size

[undone kayak]

No i meant like the default tex could be 2k to lower file size and put the 4k in the HD pack

[steady gale]

not even sure how you'd do that with arma honestly, unless you had hiddenSelections set up for every part of each model?

[knotty ore]

who would want to first download 2L textures and then on top 4K textures 😛

[muted narwhal]

it is hardly about size of files

more about how a3 handles the 4k textures

and the fact that it can randomly choose to mipmap these

[undone kayak]

Was just adding an idea to the discussion above
Personally i don't care

[steady gale]

maybe if there was a possibility in the arma launcher to have like, two different packs that you could chose between when installing GM

so you pick between having 2k or 4k textures

[knotty ore]

that would be quite a lot of extra work for the developers though. Likely not worth the trouble

the people that dont get it are unlikely to get it no matter what

[steady gale]

that's not true

[muted narwhal]

what would be the benefit?

[steady gale]

you can say that all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there are people that literally said that "I won't use GM because it's too big"

I've seen people say that

[muted narwhal]

and that is a minority

[steady gale]

doesn't matter if that minority is the people deciding what mods/dlc groups play with

and their reasoning is "I don't want to make people download 20gb of things we might not use"

[muted narwhal]

honestly, the real question i had is if GM is using 4x2k textures or 1x4k texture, which in terms of size

is precisely the same

[steady gale]

nope

[muted narwhal]

nope what

[steady gale]

a 4k texture is about 10 the file size of a 2k texture

I checked this specifically because I was curious

I took one texture and checked its file size at 4k and 2k

so the 4x2k would still be smaller

[muted narwhal]

i can easily check that in the next 30mins, you might be right tbh

[steady gale]

the difference might not be that drastic with all textures but still

2k > 4k seems to be an exponential increase

[muted narwhal]

performance wise, from a section count pov (draw calls)

less number of textures+rvmats = better

still, for now at least, 4k textured assets are the first to be mipmaped

pretty randomly too

[steady gale]

yeah I can imagine performance being better with less materials

[waxen lynx]

doesnt 4k textures have couple of issues in RV engine?

[tepid lance]

Just the agressive mipmapping that Pufu mentioned.

[waxen lynx]

fairly sure ppl also reported the engine also never switching back to 4k when mipmapped down

[tepid lance]

Never noticed that. The test for that is simple though: Spawn in a tank with 4k textures, get out, inspect, walk away 100m, and then walk back to see if the texture is blurrier.

[waxen lynx]

another "problem" i think was that you get only 4k with very high video options (and maybe some hardware/GPU requirements) and otherwise the mipmaps may look (bit?) worse than native 2k

[tepid lance]

Yes, but not really a problem, but the purpose of video settings. 😄

[steady gale]

I think what he's trying to say, if you have lower settings, in one case it's gonna downscale a 4k texture and in another case it'll just use the 2k texture as is

and in that situation the native 2k texture might look better

[tepid lance]

The texture files themselves already contain downscaled versions, those are the "mipmaps" that were referenced earlier. So during conversion from the source file to the Arma specific format (.paa) it bakes the lower-res versions already into the .paa file. I'd have to quickly check which downsampling mode is used here, but it is not done runtime or influenced by hardware settings.

It's mostly undocumented, but for example _co textures downsample differently than _dt textures. (mipmapFilter = FadeOut;). So that could be potentially what might have been witnessed, but for the color textures (_co) it's left undefined, so presumably "default".

Did a quick test to see whats actually happening. I have downsampled the texture in Photoshop from 4k to 2k (so that its a native 2k texture), and compared that with 4k mipmapped down to 2k (so a generated downsampled version via the regular tools.)

The mipmap is indeed slightly less sharp, less "crisp".

So it is certainly noticeable, I'd agree.

Thanks for making me look into this. 🙂

[knotty ore]

It is possible to manually make the mipmaps

[tepid lance]

Dusting off old kegety's PS plugin? 😄

[knotty ore]

Dedmen had a tool for that not long ago

takes textures, puts them together and generates missing levels sort of thing

[tepid lance]

If anyone seeks to replicate my experiment above, i did this with an _mca texture, which has different texconvert rules than your usual _co.

[sinful cape]

looks like it just needs a pass of sharpener over the generated mipmap :>

[tepid lance]

It looks like the mipmaps are generated using some sort of bicubic smoothing, while downscaling in photoshop preserves more details on default settings.

[steady gale]

I imagine those mipmap scaling algorithms might just be very old given how old the arma engine the .paa format is

and photoshop probably has some newer more advanced ones

[sinful cape]

yup

real question is, if the tools can be updated :>

there was a paa plugin for photoshop ages ago. it doesnt work very well anymore today, but I guess a new one would be a viable alternative

[muted narwhal]

so the 4k downside (not even gonna touch all the pluses here) is that
a. the above mipmap issue
b. not going back to 4k once it got mipmapped for lod0
c. being able to see this only when texture setting is set to maximum - ultra or whatever is called these days. Otherwise you get to see the 2k auto-mipmapped

Dedmen had a tool for that not long ago
@knotty ore the downside being having to do that manually

[knotty ore]

I think also the mipmap issue of not going back to 4K was solved?

[muted narwhal]

no idea, last time i checked over 6months ago, was still there

[tepid lance]

b. not going back to 4k once it got mipmapped for lod0
I did try this earlier and could not find this behaviour.

[steady gale]

surely another 4k downside is the exponential file size increase?

[mild solstice]

I think the behaviour of it getting stuck on the lower mip-maps is directly related to how much VRAM you have

Used to happen with my old GPU, doesn't seem to occur now

But I believe BI's tweak was to ensure it didn't just drop straight down to like the 512 mip-map, which is what it did before when the game decided 4k was too spicy

Now it goes down to 2k as one would expect

[red saddle]

If you want to test how 4k blends, I made a test texture with different color for every mipmap a while ago

the downside being having to do that manually
or automating it in your build pipeline

[mild solstice]

Is it just single colour image per mip? Might be better to do one that actually has some different colours and tone to give a better representation of filesize for practical applications of 4k textures

[warped quail]

if I scale down a 4096x4096 texture to 2048x2048 is has about a quarter of the size, as its a quarter of the pixels. no x10 or exponential increase

maybe Mondkalb could give an estimate how big filesize of relevant textures is

but I don't see the problem with filesize, only with download size. but that is a problem because of encryption

and every mod has a bunch of stuff I don't always use

heck, A3 has 80% of stuff I never use

[steady gale]

I literally tested a texture at both 4k and 2k and the size difference was almost 10x

it's definitely not just a quarter

[warped quail]

I literally did the same

[steady gale]

well as I said it might not be exactly that on all

but there will definitely be cases where the size difference is that large

[tepid lance]

The 4k I tested earlier clocks in at 14.2mb as paa, the 2k version weighs just 4.1mb as .paa.

[warped quail]

uniform retexture, 2k is 2.139kb and 4k is 8.646kb

_co.paa

[steady gale]

as far as I understand GM doesn't actually use complete _co textures for a lot of things and instead use other textures to create the full shader

and I think _co ones are the ones where the size difference will be the least different

the test I did was with a _nohq

[muted narwhal]

@steady gale 2k is 1/4 of 4k, as expected, not 10x the size as you said it is

[warped quail]

just unpacked a 4096x4096 _nohq from CUP and resized, 2048x2048 is 3841 vs 14627