#linux_mac_branch | ARMA | Page 12

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 10:32 PM

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then again very few AAA's are interested anyway

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they usually come asking about Macs and then we try to talk them into Linux

steep lotus Aug 23, 2018, 10:34 PM

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Yea, but in the long term I would assume that as market share grows, so does the demand for propper ports

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Especially for games with tricky anticheat stuff for example

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Or proton eveolves further and removes the need for ports which I wouldn't mind either. Though I'm sure you would :)

short tulip Aug 23, 2018, 10:36 PM

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Just wait until Microsoft does something wrong with Windows again. It'll happen sooner or later. And this time, Linux will be ready to take on more refugees.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 10:38 PM

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tbh if people are willing to tolerate windows 10... 😃

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but then my hatred of windows 10 is more about "wtf did they move that feature to" than anything else

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:02 PM

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Windows isn't friendly. It's ubiqutous. So “knowing how to use a computer” in most places in the world mean “knowing how to do things with Windows”. I've worked with non-tech people. They use Windows through a set of arcane spells.

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And then they go to “the admin” when those arcane spells break

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Give them linux — same thing happens.

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People don't know the system, to them it's controlled through magic either way.
When magic breaks, they panic.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:04 PM

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theres several cases where linux is most definitely behind in the user experience though

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one of them being disturbingly simple - application crashes

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on windows or os x, if an app crashes, you get a dialog box saying that it happenned, why (if youre interested) and even suggestions on what to try

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on a typical Linux distro... the app closes.. and thats it.

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yes i know theres things like whoopsie, but it doesnt always work

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:06 PM

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Don't modern DEs wrap stuff in a handler that does this?

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:06 PM

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not generally, no

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:07 PM

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I've solved this problem on my end by doing that — wrapping things that I start in my desktop session in a script that will spew the error at me if something happens

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I've assumed DEs did this

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It's a very simple script, too

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Should work in DEs, I just use libnotify.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:09 PM

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whoopsie is a particularly good example of how not to handle it

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they have a daemon and it only works with stuff registered to it.. which in the case of ubuntu is anything packaged by them

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:10 PM

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O_o

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:10 PM

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totally and utterly wrong

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:10 PM

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That's a very strange and contrived way to do dis

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Linux already has a thing called exit codes

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Start your desktop apps through a wrapper that, if the app fails (exists with a non-zero exit code), show the user some nice stuff.

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You could even then write modular handlers for specific apps

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But the general case is reasonably simple to cover

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:11 PM

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tbh a notification system should be added to the kernel

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:12 PM

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I don't see any reason for it to be there

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:12 PM

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such that if any process crashes it notifies something which can then report it

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:12 PM

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I don't see any reason for a system here at all

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It's a case for desktop apps

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Handle it in userspace. In DEs preferrably

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We have no problem with things crashing when it's not a graphical session.

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There are very old mechanisms that work in the shell, and we don't need some fancy system to do what is already done.

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Seriously, a relatively simple wrapper would solve the problem.

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With the added benefit of it being a wrapper, not the crash notification system

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Oh and I've missed the cherry: there is a system to notify the current shell. It's called exit codes.

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The only missing part is a user-friendly graphical dialog.

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Still very surprised it's not in major DEs

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Usually, when I implement something, it's already been used by everyone since the dawn of man.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:19 PM

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@scenic pendant error codes arent a guarantee of anything when you can send whatever you like with exit()

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:19 PM

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...but that's the point.

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What's your problem with it, that a program can send 0 without doing what you want it to?

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I'm not being a jerk, I honestly don't get the problem.

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The point of exit codes is as follows:

If everything is ok, you exit with 0.
If something goes wrong in a graceful enough way, you spew some errors into stderr, send a — hopefully — documented exit code to the shell and die.
If something goes wrong outside of your control, the interpreter/runtime/system will error out with one of the predetermined exitcodes. They're even documented somewhere in the kernel.

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So if an app exits with a non-zero exit-code, then either something bad's happened, or the code thinks something bad has happened.

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Both should result in some sort of error handling.

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The simplicity of this mechanism makes the dialog you want, frankly, trivial to implement

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Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

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Adding app-specific handlers for it should be easy too.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:27 PM

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my question is then - if it's that simple.. why hasnt it been done

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:28 PM

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No one cared enough to want one?

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:28 PM

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so i conclude that it isnt that simple

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:28 PM

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If someone tried and failed, there would be projects all over the place

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I think that no one who could do it cared to do so.

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I could write it, but I don't need one.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:29 PM

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yet its exactly the sort of thing that adds a barrier to ordinary people using linux

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:29 PM

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I have a simpler system, it shows me the error, but is not interactive

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Well, if you care about this, write the damn thing 😃

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:29 PM

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i did for our own games

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:30 PM

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No I mean you could write a generic error handling wrapper like I described above.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:30 PM

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another good example - an app doesnt launch if it cant find all its dependant libs

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from a linux desktop - your app simply doesnt launch, no mention of why

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:30 PM

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Same problem, same solution

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:31 PM

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actually, its not quite that simple.. i had to solve this problem too

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:31 PM

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A wrapper described above would catch this.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:31 PM

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your app fails to launch, fine.. you can trap the error code for that

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:31 PM

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Trap the entire shollout

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:31 PM

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what the error code doesnt actually give you is why your app failed to launch

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:31 PM

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shellout*

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Oh, but that's... a per-app problem.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:32 PM

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no not really, its a generic problem and one that pops up more often on linux actually

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:32 PM

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Ideally, it's documented and added to the wrapper

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:32 PM

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anyway how i solved it it in saferun.sh

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:32 PM

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Or it spews something into stderr with exiting >0; so you show the user that

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:32 PM

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but it relies on ld.so exiting with error code 128

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@scenic pendant which is not friendly at all

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:33 PM

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Wait, what do you want such a thing to do

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On Windows, what happens with weird exceptions and strange crashes is the same damn thing, but with a fancy dialog. You get a cryptic error and a wall of text

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You can only gracefully catch what you know about beforehand

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:35 PM

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os x is probably the best example to look to in terms of user friendliness

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:35 PM

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And yet still it relies on app developers doing the right thing a lot

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I can write an OS X app that fucks with its error handling

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:35 PM

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true but it also makes that incredibly easy to do for the app developer

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:36 PM

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That's the cathedral development method for you

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If you want that for linux, you want an entirely different system

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:36 PM

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yes it also means things work in a standard way

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which is good

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on linux everyone does their own thing, which is bad

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:36 PM

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It also means a lot of control in very few hands

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Which is bad

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:36 PM

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inconsistent user experience is very bad

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:37 PM

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Things are double-edged like that

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If the bazaar or the cathedral was The Definite Best Way, we'd discarded the other one long time ago

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I happen to prefer to tolerate the janky and rough nature of the “Linux desktop experience” becuase it's a consequence of the immense freedom this platform gives you

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If you want to restrict things in the name of user experience, you will meet a ton of resistance from people like me.

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On an open platform, inconsistency is the way of life.

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What I wish would happen is a sort of hybrid system. And we almost have it even

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:40 PM

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youre quite right, but its also why linux will never be a mainstream desktop environment

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:40 PM

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You can target Ubuntu, basically, and everyone else should either adapt or shout at ubuntu.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:41 PM

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no

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that is a complete fallacy

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:41 PM

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I don't know if I want linux to be mainstream if it means closing the ecosystem

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:41 PM

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if you "just target ubuntu" you lose a big chunk of an already small market

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:41 PM

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I would have no use for it, certainly

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Hm. From what I hear from people, they are usually happy to “fix” incompatibilities with ubuntu when it comes to games

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:42 PM

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not my experience

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:42 PM

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Maybe I'm not seeing the dumb part of the demographic

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:42 PM

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my experience is they either refund, or badmouth you

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or both

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:43 PM

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Interesting. We had a civil discussion about this exact problem today

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Ended up on just packaging Steam as a container, then realised flatpak is a thing

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Although I might still package it into a container, flatpak does things in a way that I can only describe as “gross” and “not how we do things around here”

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Honestly, I would be quite happy with a standard Ubuntu image Steam is recommended to be run in and everyone just target that

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That would be sweet

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Well. Not everyone. Specifically proprietary gamedevs

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The opensource community has its own set of problems, but diversity isn't one of them.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:47 PM

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flatpack etc dont appeal to me

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ironically linux once made fun of windows for "dll hell"

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i see containers as a proliferation of that

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:47 PM

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Yeam me too. I see it as a solution to a very specific set of problems

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People are going way too far

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:48 PM

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i see it as a solution to one problem - linux being openly hostile towards closed source software

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:48 PM

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Well yeah, but that's not going to change.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:48 PM

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for which the solution to everything is "release the source". which is a shit solution

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:48 PM

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Closed source software itself is no less of a virus that GPL is.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:48 PM

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if i cant release a binary that runs on all distro's of linux, then linux is broken.

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:48 PM

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It's a clash of ideas

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You can't expect it to just resolve itself neatly, can you.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:49 PM

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i see it like this

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if windows can do it, and os x can do it - so can linux

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:49 PM

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Of course we're hostile to you, you're bringing things we don't like into the ecosystem.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:49 PM

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people just need to take their heads out of their arse

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:49 PM

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Things we either don't like or just don't care about.

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With an attitude of “do things like these other guys do them”

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If we wanted to do that, we'd use those other systems.

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Containers are a decent solution to sandboxing and stabilizing a proprietary playground.

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Sure, come in, have our toys, but you don't get to infect everything you touch

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:51 PM

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we would counter that with "it is you who wants OUR toys"

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our games 😃

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:51 PM

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If the question someday stands as “games or freedom”, I'd just drop games

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You say that like that would be somehow bad in the long run, but I don't actually think the gaming industry is that necessary to what I want from my systems.

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So if gamedevs take their stuff and leave — I would not really cry that much over it.

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Especially since, in the long run, the problem can be solved with compat layers if people care enough.

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

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yet people are asking game devs to support linux

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

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Yes, to a degree, yes, not everything will work, but I'd take some games over every game, but on a system I hate

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

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then bashing us when we point out what the problems with supporting linux are

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so...

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

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Well yeah, that's a dick move

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

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honestly... shrug

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:54 PM

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Just saying you're not talking to one of those people 😃

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I do dislike some things you do, and we obviously disagree ideologically.
But being dicks to gamedevs is also meh.

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You can even be hostile without being a dick.

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I honestly think a lot of this shit is down to miscommunication and misunderstandings from everyone involved

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A lot of gamedevs, as I see it, treat linux as “when it will do everything we're used to, we will consider supporting it”

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:57 PM

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in my experience its not miscommunication at all, its outright deliberate hostility

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:57 PM

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Which is, ok, sure, but... that's not going to happen

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Again, if we wanted to implement every single thing in the exact same way, why aren't we just using those systems?

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Obviously we have different ideas.

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But then demanding support is also strange

smoky crater Aug 23, 2018, 11:58 PM

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you could hardly call windows and os x the same system, and yet they do things as standard that developers want..

scenic pendant Aug 23, 2018, 11:58 PM

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They are both cathedrals

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Cathedrals are better for coprorate software development, yes

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Well. Not necessarily, but we'd get into theory here.

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Currently, it's at least percieved as “you can't make money if you opensource the engine”.

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I don't think it's necessarily true, but that's a huge topic by itself.

And if you want restrictions, you inevitably go cathedral.

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What a lot of devs I see demand is “go cathedral or we are not interested”

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:01 AM

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it's actually simpler

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:01 AM

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And, again, fair enough. Won't happen tho.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:01 AM

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it's called "dont give your competitors any advantages"

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so if you develop a game engine with particular features, you dont want your competitor to have those features for nothing

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:02 AM

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That's not the only way to treat games tho

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You could share the tech, but sell the art

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:02 AM

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no but it is the business way, and while money pays for game development, thats how it is

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:02 AM

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And yes, code very much is art

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But you get what I'm saying

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:03 AM

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look at it this way

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:03 AM

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Share the tech, so that everyone can tell stories

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:03 AM

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Id only open sourced Id Tech once it had no further commercial viability

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:03 AM

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No, I know how it works.

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Let a girl dream dammit

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I've devolved into the “people could have been better so we'd have nicer things” part of tonight's ranting.

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BTW the new Epic engine is mostly open

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Unreal.

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The devil is in the details, of course

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:06 AM

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yes, because Epic have already made shitloads from selling UE1-UE3

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:06 AM

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No one opened the middleware

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:06 AM

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and now with UE4, they know they are still going to sell it - at least, support for it

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:06 AM

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And there are still closed parts of the engine

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:06 AM

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yep. same with unity

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:07 AM

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Although Epic swear they are only closed due to licesing issues

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And once those are resolved, those parts would also be open.

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Would be nice

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And again, if people would have been a bit less shit, we could all just agree not to make money on each other's tech without reaching an agreement first

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Like, the opensource community, when it doesn't involve huge chunks of money, is pretty good on respecting licenses.

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Even tho lately the nolicense trend's been gaining traction

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It's basically a very anarcho-social idea of “these rules only make it harder to cooperate”

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:10 AM

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ive had plenty of people attempt to use the GPL as a stick to beat eON with

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even though we comply

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:10 AM

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It's a disaster waiting to happen tho. De-jure if you use code without a license, you're using non-free code

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:10 AM

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we dont use GPL code. Anything LGPL is dynamically linked and clearly indicated

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:10 AM

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It's going to blow up

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It's why I have a LICENCE file for every little script I publish. It's a very permissive one, but it's there.

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people attempt to use the GPL as a stick to beat eON with

Wait what why.

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Just nitpicking?

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:12 AM

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nitpicking.. we've had people assume we MUST be derived from Wine somehow and are using Wine code illegally.. and some people i think just like the idea of "forcing" us to open source eON

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i've generally avoided use of LGPL stuff

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openal-soft is probably the biggest one we use

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:13 AM

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I really don't like it when people use licenses vindictively

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:13 AM

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everything else we use is typically zlib/bsd alike license

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:13 AM

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Which is why I don't, in general, like licenses that allow this. Even tho I understand why a virus was necessary.

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Still is.

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GPL is why opensource exists.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:14 AM

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gpl is just stallman being a nutcase

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and he made that intention perfectly clear with v3

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:14 AM

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Yeah, v3 is crazy

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I get not liking tivoization, but v3 goes way too far with it

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Which is why Linus is still using GPLv2 for Linux! 😃

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And people in general have steered clear of GPLv3, to my knowledge.

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v2 is a fair virus license tho.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:16 AM

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personally i think that if you want to open source something, you open it

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:16 AM

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“I publish my code under the assumption that it and things that use my work will be free to use and to tikner with”

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:16 AM

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so... BSD alike license

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:16 AM

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Yes, ideally, I like BSD more.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:16 AM

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you dont get to tell other people what to do with their code as a consequence of using yours

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:16 AM

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And I publish my own code under ISC

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Which is a shorter version of BSD 2-clause.

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“Do whatever, credit me bitch”

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But at the same time there are people who would take my code and make millions using it, while being shitheads to their customers.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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they would do that anyway

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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I'm fine with that as a consequence of the freedom I firmly believe in.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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and if they have more money than you, your license is impotent

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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But I also understand the immense feeling of unfairness when that happens

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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sad fact of the matter that thats how the world works

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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And the desire to not let that happen again.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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if a million dollar megacorp took some opensource coder's work and used it.. license or no.. he is shit out of luck unless someone loans him a million dollars for lawyers

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:18 AM

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Yeah, I know. Another reason not to use GPL

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I just don't care enough to enforce it, even if I agreed with it

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I don't care to enforce ISC, really.

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If you take my code and not credit me, I'll call you names on my blog and move on with my life.

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If you make millions, I'll just keep telling people you're an asshole

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But that's it 😃

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:20 AM

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youd still lose even doing that, if million dollar megacorp sees.. they sue you for libel and you'll lose because they have a million dollars and good lawyers, and you dont

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:20 AM

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Depends on where you live

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:21 AM

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its more the case in the US, but it's the case anywhere in practicality

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:21 AM

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And hey, courts aren't as easy to buy as you think.
A company won't generally go into a lawsuit they're at least somewhat likely to lose just on facts alone.

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:21 AM

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thing is, they dont need to win

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they just need to drag you into court and cost you so much in legal fees that you sink

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:22 AM

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And if you just go “they stole my code, fuck em”, most of what happens is they warn you not to sue them

smoky crater Aug 24, 2018, 12:22 AM

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even if you win, you still lose when you finally get the bill for your legal costs

scenic pendant Aug 24, 2018, 12:22 AM

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To warrant a libel lawsuit, you need to really go wide with a smear campaign

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Again, not really the bothering type.

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There are way smarter ways to erode a reputation btw

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If you work in the same industry, be smart and capable — you'll have your chance :3

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Oh, I get what you're talking about. You're talking about those people who would go on TV and shit, shouting from the rooftops how they've been wronged

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That's people who want something.

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If you use my shit without credit, I don't want anything from you. You don't owe me anything.

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So what would a mass smear campaign achieve?

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By “I'll just keep telling people you're an asshole” I meant anyone who'd ask, not Dr. Phil.

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And my point is I wish more people had this attitude to their code

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Sorry I'm not really coherent rn

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Got a bit too high a bit too quickly, my mind is scattered 😃

sly rover Aug 24, 2018, 11:34 PM

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I think this conversation might be a little off topic :P

scenic sleet Aug 25, 2018, 11:09 AM

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Maybe but I'll add this, open source projects can get pro bono legalised assistance from several well funded law firms and we've successfully forced some big firms into GPL compliance and even fended off a patent claim from MPEG-LA without spending a penny of our own money

smoky crater Aug 25, 2018, 8:17 PM

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i dislike the implications behind "forced into compliance"

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i had some nutcase who tried to claim VP violated GPL despite a) we dont use GPL components, b) we list the licenses of all the stuff we use along with the games

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apparently his argument was "you need to host copies of the libraries you use". i dont see where that is required by LGPL, nor do i see the point when we do not modify the libraries

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then his next argument was "you mustve modified openal-soft because the library name isnt the same"

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yeah... i specified a CMAKE option...

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theres too many nutters who just want to use the GPL as a stick to beat commercial companies with

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and as far as i know the LGPL does not require you to divulge what options you built the library with.. so specifying a custom soname is not a violation

molten pulsar Aug 25, 2018, 11:04 PM

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some people ^^

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either pick another license if you don't want commercial usage or shut up

scenic sleet Aug 26, 2018, 4:30 AM

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@smoky crater Yes, some people throw false or invalid accusations, one of the proper Open Source defending law firms will actually know what they are talking about and will do their homework before they even begin. When I say "forced", in every case all it took was a friendly, nonthreatening letter from the lawyers, but in those same cases they had ignored direct requests from developers.

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The GPL really only asks one very simple thing and those of us who choose to use GPL instead of MIT et al, do so because we believe in it. No-one I have ever worked with can be described as anti-corporate, or anti-profit, myself I now work for a company that actually bases their products on top of the GPL software I helped to write and as a company we comply with the GPL license terms and contribute changes back upstream - not just releasing the code but actively contributing that work back (which is as it should be)

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One reason companies use open source software including GPL software is that they recognise that to recreate the same from scratch for their own uses would be financially prohibitive - in many cases it represents years of developer effort and millions of dollars of work. It's really not much to ask in return for getting both the software and the source code free (£$) that you honour the GPL terms and make a contribution back*

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In many cases users are redistributing only and not modifying the source code, so there is no contribution, which is perfectly acceptable under the GPL.

shrewd sigil Aug 26, 2018, 7:26 AM

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Anyone here know what sorts of performance you would be looking at on the new 2018 macbook pros considering I get 20-40 fps on the 2013 models

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The i9 versions

scenic pendant Aug 26, 2018, 8:50 AM

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Arma 3 wants a very beefy single core performance

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And just a decent GPU will do

quasi orchid Aug 26, 2018, 8:51 AM

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arma 3 prefers CPU though, doesnt it?

scenic pendant Aug 26, 2018, 8:52 AM

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For example, I get a relatively stable 45 FPS in Arma 3, with my i5-3570 and a goddamn 1080Ti.

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Got the same stable 45 on the 680GTX

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There's almost no difference, but I can enable some fancy effects now

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The game can be plenty beatiful btw.

#

Hey wew wait a second, they've got an nvidia chip in those laptops now?

#

@shrewd sigil I dunno, I'm seeing thermal throttling and very aggressive power management in reviews

#

I doubt that machine is that good for gaming just in general tbh, even with that mobile nvidia chip

#

Those machines*

shrewd sigil Aug 26, 2018, 10:24 AM

#

Yeah Ik I’m just away from my pc for a while so seeing if I’ll be able to do anything on the mac

#

Yeah the thermal throttling is “apparently” fixed with the new OS update but who knows with Apple honestly @scenic pendant

smoky crater Aug 26, 2018, 1:24 PM

#

thermal throttling is nothing to do with the OS

#

it's to do with the hardware

#

In the quest for having mega thin laptops, Apple sacrifice cooling.. so if you run the GPU at 100% load for any significant period, the whole lot gets thermally throttled

#

i've never gotten the super thin thing.. doesnt really matter, and id rather have more battery life and an ethernet port

warm dune Aug 26, 2018, 1:27 PM

#

pls
give me a battery that actually lasts the day

night sinew Aug 26, 2018, 1:29 PM

#

never

warm dune Aug 26, 2018, 1:30 PM

#

But apparently this was an issue with a "missing digital key" in MacOS' thermal management system that somehow caused problems

night sinew Aug 26, 2018, 1:32 PM

#

Missing digital key? Is this still the case today?

warm dune Aug 26, 2018, 1:32 PM

#

News pages I'm reading says it's been fixed now.

night sinew Aug 26, 2018, 1:37 PM

#

Interesting, I've never really liked to use apple machines. I had to use one during my graphics design course and the speed was constantly an issue between photoshop, illustrator and indesign. Even though they had a seperate adobe department to design the apple version? or am I thinking of some other application? Anyhow, often times my preview export would take up to 5 minutes to render. Even after letting the machine shut off after the night and trying again in the morning. The teacher claimed it had to do with the low memory, but I'm not convinced.

#

They weren't the laptops either, they were mac pros. I don't know of which model, but they were within a 2 or 3 year release date time.

smoky crater Aug 26, 2018, 1:48 PM

#

Macs are useless when you run them into swapfile

#

so yeah, if you exhaust actual ram, they become stone slow

#

pity as os x has some really nice stuff

night sinew Aug 26, 2018, 1:51 PM

#

But each system had 8 GB. Why is it that stone slow at 8?

smoky crater Aug 26, 2018, 2:02 PM

#

well if youre dealing with large digital images, 8GB quickly goes nowhere 😃

#

my own mac has 8GB and i quite easily push it into swapspace with just Xcode

scenic pendant Aug 26, 2018, 3:20 PM

#

8G is nothing these days

#

Well. Most games would run at 8G RAM.

#

But if you do anything close to media — 8G is puny

#

Also if you run a lot of VMs

#

“But you can just not run them in parallel” — I hear you say. And ignore your stupid opinion.

molten pulsar Aug 26, 2018, 9:38 PM

#

hmm I've been having an issue lately; sometimes when I preview a mission and go back to the editor the game will just freeze

#

seems quite random

deft carbon Aug 27, 2018, 5:52 AM

#

I've been debating buying a 32 GB kit and upgrading from 16 to 48. Problem is, it's so expensive.

scenic sleet Aug 27, 2018, 6:25 AM

#

I went to 32 GB and TBH I'm not really seeing the benefit 98% of the time

covert quiver Aug 27, 2018, 7:25 AM

#

Went from 8 to 16GB, together (2 2x4 kits) cost me over 200€... DDR4 is expansive

scenic sleet Aug 27, 2018, 7:45 AM

#

ouch, I didn't pay that much for my upgrade (from 16GB) but the price had jumped between the first 16GB and the second lot

scenic pendant Aug 27, 2018, 9:56 AM

#

Yeah, I'm on 32G, it's gonna be fine for a while

#

I do sometimes take it all up, but that's VMs and ramdisks, not gaming

scenic sleet Aug 27, 2018, 11:28 AM

#

yeah, if all I was doing was gaming on that machine I'd not feel the need to go above 16GB

#

at least not today

steep lotus Aug 27, 2018, 12:29 PM

#

I upgraded from 16 to 24 gb because I ran out of ram occationally

#

Though that's prbably because I have a bad habbit of never closing stuff and using 27 workspaces

covert quiver Aug 27, 2018, 4:10 PM

#

@scenic sleet the worst is, i bought that with Ethereum (cryptocurrency) which was worth 10USD per piece, a year later it was worth 800USD, so I wasted around 16000 US Dollar

molten pulsar Aug 27, 2018, 8:46 PM

#

lol

scenic pendant Aug 27, 2018, 9:07 PM

#

No, you haven't wasted 16k. You never had the 16k in the firest place.

#

This is the same faulty logic publishers use to justify “lost revenue”

#

When in fact money not made != money lost

sly rover Aug 28, 2018, 4:31 AM

#

With enough memory, you could just have Arma entirely loaded into ram.

#

It would definitely improve performance in some cases, though how much depends on if you have a traditional hard drive or an SSD.

#

And your vram bandwidth, I guess.

covert quiver Aug 28, 2018, 5:07 AM

#

For some reason arma crashed in a older version every time when it was loaded into swap, that's the reason I upgraded

fading trout Aug 29, 2018, 1:16 AM

#

This is amazing.

#

We're so close to 1.84

#

I can't wait people.

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 1:20 AM

#

We are?

gritty sage Aug 29, 2018, 1:33 AM

#

That's some great news then

#

Where did you get these exclusive news that no one else has from?

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 6:44 AM

#

Yeah the only thing I remember as a sort of a tease is some much needed fixes to 1.82, 1.84 release date is nowhere to be found :3

#

Personally, I can't wait for native lib support, if it's implemented at some point

#

That would do a lot for lin/win parity

#

Everyone plays ACE3 >_>

#

And for good reason, it's an amazing mod.

#

After playing ACE3 without some of the advanced features, it's so much better than vanilla

#

Having text in radial menus and working advanced ballistics would make me a happy man

#

Mostly the ballistics

#

List-style menus work perfectly, so

still trench Aug 29, 2018, 11:52 AM

#

@fading trout Wait wait. How do you know we're close to 1.84?

scenic sleet Aug 29, 2018, 12:13 PM

#

I suspect he thought the Steamplay beta would apply to Arma, it doesn't and it won't

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 12:19 PM

#

lol

#

Arma 3 does work under Proton. With caveats

#

And a bigger performance hit than EoN

#

Although not by much

scenic sleet Aug 29, 2018, 12:22 PM

#

it's not supposed to ... Valve have stated that Proton won't be available for games which already have a Linux port, they don't want to undermine Linux porters (even though that's what they are doing anyway)

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 12:28 PM

#

You can still run native games with proton. You just need a bit more effort

#

I mean play games that have native ports

#

It's usually not very useful, but you can even do that with Steam.

#

It has custom launch commands and external app suport. That's all you need to plug Proton in.

#

Also Windows game files, but that is solved by linking your steamapps/common from a WINE Steam install.

#

It will download the platform-specfic files and you're golden.

#

I've been doing that without proton for years

#

I've basically had a lot of what Proton does for years. The unique feature is the integration with steam libs.

#

So you can run non-native games from native Steam without cracking the Steam DRM.

scenic sleet Aug 29, 2018, 12:33 PM

#

anyhow, discussion regarding playing under Proton is technically off-topic for this channel, although up to now mods have given a us a lot of leeway here

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 12:33 PM

#

Most of the time it's easier to run Steam in WINE, so...

#

Yeah fair enough.

still trench Aug 29, 2018, 1:59 PM

#

As much as i understand Eon by VP is yet another compatability layer as much as Wine. I personaly wouldnt care if BI would go as far as just making sure its compatible fully with Proton for version parity reason, and maybe even easyer time for BI. Is there a way to have some other closed source external anti-cheat solution to complement BattleEye to work with wine. Or is it that much tangled in the game it self?

#

I'm not sugestong to lay VP off work. Jist curious of possibilities and how things work

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 2:39 PM

#

this is really not the place to critize bohemia interactive of their decision to hire another company to port the game...

#

they decided so 3 years ago, when there was no proton or DXVK

#

and proton/wine is by far not the best solution to "port" games to linux

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 2:58 PM

#

I don't see anyone criticizing anyone tbh 😛

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 2:59 PM

#

bad wording on my side 😄 but I could see SteamPlay harming the linux gaming community more than gaining something through it

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:00 PM

#

how does making more games, in theory, available to play on Linux hurt the community exactly?

#

yes, maybe less native ports but whatever

#

you can play the game you want to play 😛

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 3:01 PM

#

without any official support, degraded performance,...

#

I mean it could also get us more players and then more devs could decide to give us proper native support (which I hope is the case), but I dont think there switched too much players (yet)

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:06 PM

#

time will tell

#

most game developers know that native is always better

#

and assuming our player base increases then the native ports might follow

#

even more than now

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 3:08 PM

#

which i really hope

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 3:09 PM

#

It's possible, I suppose. But I don't think we were in a sustainable state before this either. Before this came along, we were completely dependant on the goodwill of devs who were more interested in supporting an underdog of an OS or supporting as many platforms as possible than getting the most bang for their buck. And even if devs can port a game to Linux with relative ease, testing it on Linux is always going to take a lot of time and money. And outside of Point & Click Adventure games (and maybe Visual Novels), Linux support isn't really profitable. And we've had companies promise Linux support and cancel them (Street Fighter V and Kingdom Come Deliverance). We've had games with Linux support get sequels with no Linux support (Guacamelee). We've had games that had Linux support losing it (Rust). And we have entire publishers threatening to cease Linux support if it doesn't get profitable soon (Paradox). We cannot continue to depend on the goodwill of publishers and devs because it doesn't make financial sense for them to do so. Valve's move was to make sure that there are going to be more Linux users in the future to make future native support for Linux easier to justify. If their means to do so obfuscates the native part of native Linux support, it's still better than not doing anything about the situation at all. Because the old status quo leads to the worst case scenario.

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:09 PM

#

WOW

#

tldr 😄

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 3:10 PM

#

Rust doesnt have linux support anymore?

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:10 PM

#

fully agree though, +1

warm dune Aug 29, 2018, 3:10 PM

#

Rust recently cancelled Linux support following Unity Engine problems https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/facepunch-are-no-longer-selling-the-linux-version-of-the-survival-game-rust.12236

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 3:10 PM

#

me too, the situation is depressive

#

wow didnt know that, i even had plans to start playing with my friends in september

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:11 PM

#

from what I understood it was temporary until unity gets their sh!t back together

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 3:14 PM

#

"Also Linux Community - being abusive, demanding, rude to the few developers actually shipping games to your favourite OS isn't the way to go. It makes me regret ever shipping Linux versions." - wow that makes me angry

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:14 PM

#

we have a few of those in here as well 😛

covert quiver Aug 29, 2018, 3:15 PM

#

I know, but I have only encountered a few here

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 3:16 PM

#

If the Linux community is going to grow explosively (as it needs to in order to survive), I don't think there is going to be any way to avoid that sort of bad behavior in the future. We are going to be ready to give toxic members of the community a piece of our minds, even if we are outnumbered.

molten pulsar Aug 29, 2018, 3:19 PM

#

hey, steam play just went in to the stable steam client

#

that's fast

fading trout Aug 29, 2018, 3:38 PM

#

Nah it's that we're on 1.82 and Win is on 1.84. Last time I checked we were well over 8 versions behind. So seeing that dwindling to 2 feels amazing. Can't wait, @still trench.

still trench Aug 29, 2018, 3:48 PM

#

Oh... man. There was no 1.83. So we are an update away from global experiance. Actualy we had a week of it on 1.82 till the update came

sly rover Aug 29, 2018, 3:49 PM

#

Discussing Proton is way more on topic than discussing licensing, btw.

#

There are never odd numbered updates.

#

Also @short tulip the SFV port was never officially cancelled, and people who would know have hinted that it could still happen.

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 3:52 PM

#

Oh really? Okay.

sly rover Aug 29, 2018, 3:53 PM

#

Which doesn't mean it wasn't cancelled.

#

But we don't know if it was.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 9:49 PM

#

@short tulip do be wary of turning your search for toxic people into a witchhunt.

#

Really easy to do, and really easy to start seeing what you're looking for everywhere.

#

From my admittedly not very deep interactions with Garry Newman (Facepunch Studios, RUST, GMod), I can't really give a glowing characteristic of the guy.

#

My experience with him tells me he's a liar and not a very nice person in general.
I'd take his whining about the community with a huge grain of salt

#

Maybe a small hangar of salt?

#

Whatever that guy gets, he also dishes out plenty.

sly rover Aug 29, 2018, 10:55 PM

#

I've also seen Garry Newman personally responding to bug reports on the forums and keeping everyone updated on their status.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 11:26 PM

#

Could just be personal experience, of course.
I am quite abrasive myself.

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 11:33 PM

#

@scenic pendant I do try to avoid being toxic myself. Somehow, I end up the bad guy anyway. I don't really harbor bad feelings towards publishers who prioritize profits over Linux support. They aren't our enemies. They are just trying to get by. I don't fault them for that.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 11:37 PM

#

I don't think devs and publishers that don't do ports get the bulk of “misbehavers”. It's probably mostly holier-than-thou users of obscure distros (or — worse — a mainstream distro they think is obscure) harassing devs for games not working.

#

And I'm not saying everyone who uses an obscure distro is an asshole, or even most of them. I use an obscure meta-Arch distro myself.
But you do have this type. “I use Slackware. I also do not understand the system I use and installed it because it's a hacker's distro. Your game doesn't work on my weird broken-ass setup. Fuck you. Refund.”

#

Jaycee was talking about them the other day, and they definitely exist.

#

But then some would make you believe that refunding itself in this situation is wrong on principle.
Or that people getting angry at you not fixing issues for months or even years in some cases is not at all justified.

#

Both RUST and GMod had game-breaking problems for years on linux

#

I get that shouting at a dev isn't nice or really that helpful, but do you really expect people... not to?

#

They've paid money for a broken product, they have the right to be a bit abrasive.

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 11:43 PM

#

The very existence of obscure distros are scaring away potential game devs from supporting Linux. I've seen quite a few devs base their decision to not support Linux on the idea that they can't test their game on every distro under the sun. And I've even heard Windows fanboys openly discouraging devs from supporting Linux on the very basis that Linux support requires to support every distro under the sun.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 11:44 PM

#

Well that's unfortunate, but can't really be fixed without, you know, somehow restricting people from building their own distros

#

Which is, frankly, ludicrous.

#

If that ever somehow happens, I'm moving to OpenBSD. It's a pretty nice system, and most of my software works on it by accident.

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 11:45 PM

#

There's a better solution than that. Just make it clear which distros need direct support and which derivatives are supported by the support of the main branch and which distros are too obscure to justify supporting directly.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 11:46 PM

#

Eh, we've had this conversation with a few devs at a few occasions. Including jaycee here.
I tend to believe him when he says that targeting just a few distros and refusing to support others is a disaster.

#

Even tho I wish that worked

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 11:47 PM

#

Feral takes responsibility for that. They only officially support SteamOS and Ubuntu. And their launcher gives me a warning message for running anything different. I'm using Mint. I'm fine.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 11:47 PM

#

Although I've seen some games not officially supporting other distros and even downright refusing to support Arch

#

I think one of those was Everspace?

#

Don't quote me on that.
But I'd be curious to hear what people who did that have to say.

#

Everspace devs spoke pretty decently about the linux community btw

#

Abrasive but ultimately helpful, I think, was the overall vibe

#

Everspace never had ridiculously old game-breaking bugs tho.
They just specifically don't support some stuff, say so on the box and that's it.
Also there's a minor-ish graphical glitch.

#

It's also an in-house port. That tends to smooth things over

short tulip Aug 29, 2018, 11:51 PM

#

I guess the best way to go is directly supporting popular distros that hold the user's hands anyway. More advanced distros ought to get indirect support. People who use Ubuntu just want stuff running out of the box. People who use Arch are probably more prepared to have to work to get everything working as they like it.

scenic pendant Aug 29, 2018, 11:53 PM

#

You're talking about people in general — and yeah, that's how it is in general.
Problem is, assholes don't hear reason, they want to shout at you for ruining their game night or whatever.

I've been on the verge of doing that at several points myself. If you read waaaay above, when I just joined here, I've given jaycee a pretty steamy take on the state on Arma 3 on linux, and how it is, in my opinion, not in any way a product that I would actually recommend anyone spend their money on, even with the disclamers.
But I don't think I've ever been unfair or unnecessarily rude about it.

#

I've also proceeded to downright buy quite a few copies of the game for my firends, but that's my own reasons 😃

#

Still, I can see the anger in someone who wanted to play a game and an update ruined their plans to do so, and not go “what a complete asshole”.

#

Because they probably aren't. They're very probably just a 30-something underpaid married tired af corporate worker who just wanted to play a game this evening.
Not figure stuff out and submit bug reports.

#

And hey, if it's the caricature-worthy scenario of someone using CRUX without understanding what a library is, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly that idiot brought this on themselves.

#

But when it's menus not working properly for months and years or a game having a gamebreaking bug for months after release.
Or — especially — when an update comes out, breaks something in the linux version and then isn't fixed or rolled back quickly.
You can see how people might get upset when things like that happen.

smoky crater Aug 30, 2018, 12:31 AM

#

its when people call us devs lazy or stupid or imply we havent tested it or etc etc etc.. yeah...

#

as ive pointed out to several people several times - test houses for games on major platforms like consoles or Windows are big business, and they will test literally everything you can think of, and stuff you wont think of

#

this infrastructure doesnt exist for Linux or Mac, and Linux is far worse because there is literally an infinite permutation of system configs

scenic pendant Aug 30, 2018, 4:12 AM

#

True. Before talking to devs and seeing these threads for myself I would have assumed linux users of all people would understand you can't test 'em all.
Apparently not everyone does.

long sphinx Aug 31, 2018, 1:28 AM

#

Personally, I kinda like to see Ubuntu as the default distro for linux gaming stuff

#

5 years of support is decent

#

and shit doesn't get too old/fucked up like in debian stable or RH clones lol

scenic pendant Aug 31, 2018, 1:34 AM

#

Yeah, I have no objections to that either.

molten pulsar Aug 31, 2018, 1:06 PM

#

agreed

#

even though I'm a Fedora user ^^

covert quiver Aug 31, 2018, 3:03 PM

#

btw I use arch, I agree though 😃

molten pulsar Aug 31, 2018, 6:48 PM

#

hmmmm that's weird

#

my game suddenly decided to creash with my xbox 360 controller connected

#

🤔

#

have been playing for a more than a week now and it crashed just now in the middle of the game and from that point on it crashes on start unless I unplug the controller

#

wth

covert quiver Aug 31, 2018, 6:58 PM

#

can give info on monday whether my Thrustmaster Warthog works 🤔

scenic pendant Aug 31, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

Wait did a big update just hit

#

Or is it DRO

#

Oh, it's just DRO.

covert quiver Aug 31, 2018, 7:44 PM

#

DRO?

#

urbandictionary says DRO stands for homegrown marijuana

#

but i dont think you mean that 😄

scenic pendant Aug 31, 2018, 8:11 PM

#

Dynamic Recon Ops

#

It had a massive enough update for it to look like it's the game that's updated 😄

#

Coincidentally, I am quite high.
But that's also not really an abnormality tbh.

quasi orchid Sep 2, 2018, 7:08 AM

#

Is there a date set on 1.84 coming out for mac users?

covert quiver Sep 2, 2018, 8:17 AM

#

probably when linux port comes out 🤔

#

but no, we never get release dates

smoky crater Sep 2, 2018, 8:04 PM

#

i have no official news on this, but I get the feeling BI are going to cancel it

molten pulsar Sep 2, 2018, 8:42 PM

#

that's not a good feeling you're having

#

😦

short tulip Sep 2, 2018, 8:44 PM

#

I thought we gave a pretty spirited response to the call for continued support.

scenic pendant Sep 2, 2018, 9:29 PM

#

Well. I was expecting 1.84 to be the last linux release.

#

Was I... too optimistic for a change? O_o

sly rover Sep 2, 2018, 11:34 PM

#

See, it would be awesome, in my opinion, if BI saw this as reason to have a Vulkan renderer in Enfusion.

#

And made similar choices to make sure that future games using that could run in Proton with no hacks.

quasi orchid Sep 3, 2018, 5:42 AM

#

BI can't cancel support for lunix and Macs, it was pretty clear that the community wanted them to continue the updates 🤔

#

...And have them be released alongside the windows updates.

scenic pendant Sep 3, 2018, 8:19 AM

#

can't

#

Watch em

#

Also, @smoky crater as much as I appreciate the heads up, people are already panicking 😃

#

I dunno, I'll probably get another few thousand hours out of the linux version as it is

smoky crater Sep 3, 2018, 8:59 AM

#

proton is bound to make them think if supporting our port is worth it

#

on one hand proton has a vulkan renderer, on the other our port has proper battleye support which they cant add to proton

scenic pendant Sep 3, 2018, 12:02 PM

#

I'm preetty sure that feature parity is more important to people

#

So if they're looking at the community's reaction, they might fairly assume at least a good chunk of us doesn't care about battleye or is downright hostile to it

#

Still, Proton performance is worse than the EoN port

#

It'd be an experience downgrade for me if I had to play the windows version

#

IF they get it to at least where the EoN port is performance wise... that's probably not going to happen

#

All in all, a non-native Arma 3 right now is a way worse experience than the port, even with all its problems

#

Oh btw the sound is really buggy under proton

scenic sleet Sep 4, 2018, 7:27 AM

#

If BI drop the ports, then it just justifies the decision of all those who refused to buy Arma for linux while it was labelled 'experimental'. It was in a way a self-fulfilling prophecy, catch 22, people aren't going to pay for a game that may not end up being supported and yet BI were using the experimental ports to gauge interest.

scenic pendant Sep 4, 2018, 7:45 AM

#

I still think that the biggest problem is feature parity splitting the community

#

i.e. I agree, it's a catch 22, just that the bigger problem is “you can't play with your windows using friends, who are already laughing at your miserable gaming experience”

#

And yes, technically you can

#

But have you managed to convince anyone to downgrade to play with you?

#

I couldn't.

#

And it's not just the base downgrade. Mods having features tied to something only the Windows version can do (native libs) is a severe problem.

#

Everyone plays ACE3 with advanced ballistics on. No one would disable it just to play with a handful of linux users.

#

It's happened before with huge games like CoD releasing map packs for money and splitting their online playerbase. It always ends badly.

#

One of the split parts, usually the smaller one, just dies off.

#

Interestingly enough, Bohemia understand that not letting people play together because they don't have the same DLCs is a very bad idea, so they let you, with caveats

#

This is exactly the same problem, yet...

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 9:10 AM

#

thing is, if you dont have battlEye then you cant really play together on most servers anyway

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 9:18 AM

#

Mods having features tied to something only the Windows version can do (native libs) Extensions sounds like a very easy to fix thing though. As long as they are linux extension they don't need to do anything besides forward the calls. They should even be compatible at assembly level. So they don't even have to forward the extension calls. Just the FindLibraryMethod stuff.
But version parity is the major reason.. Also the reason why I never even tried the linux build out.

scenic pendant Sep 4, 2018, 9:26 AM

#

It should have been ok with just native extension support, not even .dll support.

#

That, as @smoky crater has well put, is its own can of worms.

#

Oh. Nvm I've misread you 😃

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 9:28 AM

#

Yeah I don't expect .dll support. And don't think it's really needed anyway

#

They might use whatever obscure windows API that they didn't think about.. You basically cannot have that working right at all

scenic pendant Sep 4, 2018, 9:28 AM

#

It's demonstrably not needed, most extentions I see don't need windows, they just implement things Arma 3 doesn't, but they're easily platform-independent usually

#

I mean even the Teamspeak-using extensions should be portable, with some effort

#

Teamspeak 3 has a cross-platform API IIRC 😃

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 10:00 AM

#

Yeah. TFAR's Teamspeak interface stuff is 98% code on Teamspeak side which can be done in native linux. The Arma side extension is just passing messages.
Might be a little different for ACRE

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 10:04 AM

#

i would implement native .so/.dylib extensions but i have to wait until im told i can...

#

as for battleye, i severely doubt there is any way the BattlEye developers would allow its integration into wine

#

because "security by obscurity" is a thing and a valuable tool against cheaters

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 10:06 AM

#

Battleye's kernel protection is not really possible without native kernel stuff anyway

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 10:08 AM

#

it doesnt do that on linux or mac anyway

#

its entirely userspace as far as i know

#

but on Linux kernel protection would be pointless and on Macs well.. theres no skilled hackers on macs 😉

#

but on Windows, youve got people who go so far as to modify video drivers

#

so thats why you need kernel protection

#

battleye is also built specifically for the game, so there isnt one library

#

iirc

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 10:15 AM

#

theres no skilled hackers on macs 👍 😄

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 10:16 AM

#

really, not many.. and even fewer gamers who would bother to try modifying their system to install such hacks

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 10:16 AM

#

I'm sure BI wouldn't like pointless/useless protections on linux.. Most hackers can just go the easy way by using Linux.

#

And I think most players also wouldn't be very happy with that

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 10:17 AM

#

well yes, that would be a problem.. if cheaters turn to playing on Linux because they can do things like modify Mesa to provide seethrough support and stuff like that, and not be detected

#

youd end up with game servers just platform banning Linux players

#

but i dont see how you could reliably detect such cheaters

#

its not like we could even prevent process injection... if youre root on linux you can do anything

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 10:19 AM

#

Yeah. I don't see it either. Currently there is no way to platform ban.. And it would also harm the Linux Arma community if most servers block them out...
So in the end battleye support is probably not even really worth it.

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 10:20 AM

#

it is worth it because otherwise Linux players are locked out anyway

#

most public servers require battleye

scenic pendant Sep 4, 2018, 10:23 AM

#

Just as a personal anecdote: I don't care about public servers

#

I'd like to play on a few private ones that would have me... if I had full ACE3 working

#

They're even ok with playing 1.82

gritty sage Sep 4, 2018, 10:23 AM

#

Yeah but I mean from BI's standpoint.
Battleye is like a large castle wall on Windows.. Sure you can climb over it if you really really want.
On linux the castle wall would have a unlocked door that you can use if you want.
I'm sure players won't be happy with that, and I guess BI will also keep that in mind.
It's easier just turning the castle wall into a infinitely high Energy shield that no one can get through..

And if they decide that battleye is not worth it... That might play into their decision to not even proceed with the port.

I don't care about public servers either.. I got a permanent battleye ban for hacking after all 😄

scenic pendant Sep 4, 2018, 10:24 AM

#

But Advanced Ballistics is a dealbreaker for many.

#

Still, being locked out of public servers would be a massive issue for most players, I'd guess

smoky crater Sep 4, 2018, 10:35 AM

#

before we added battleye support, many posts i saw on GamingOnLinux moaned about not having it..

quasi orchid Sep 8, 2018, 9:17 AM

#

any news on 1.84?

covert quiver Sep 8, 2018, 4:41 PM

#

Hmm, my HOTAS Warthog Joystick and Throttle aren't being detected by arma

#

is there some way to map keys to joysticks?

warm dune Sep 8, 2018, 4:46 PM

#

I heard of a tool called Antimicro, that might work.

covert quiver Sep 8, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

tried using that, but its really not that great

#

is there a way to add the joystick to arma?

night sinew Sep 8, 2018, 9:42 PM

#

Joystick should end up being detected as a controller. Pretty sure arma comes with libraries and support for joysticks. @covert quiver

sly rover Sep 8, 2018, 10:11 PM

#

For me, detecting the controller seemed kind of random

#

In my very limited testing

#

But otherwise worked fine

covert quiver Sep 9, 2018, 7:54 AM

#

@night sinew nope, can't detect either my throttle or joystick

fading trout Sep 11, 2018, 1:44 PM

#

Wish ArmA had at least one proprietary Linux server for KotH and rotating Zeus. At least then Linux'd be able to get some casual time in. FeelsBadMan sacCABBAGE

steep lotus Sep 11, 2018, 2:20 PM

#

Unfortunately I don't think there are enough players for interesting pvp

night sinew Sep 11, 2018, 2:57 PM

#

and emp's server doesn't count?

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 3:57 PM

#

@fading trout BI can't host KotH, AFAIK only Sa-Matra and his partnered Servers have the code

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 3:59 PM

#

Bi is hosting official KotH servers tho afaik?

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 4:08 PM

#

are they? Didn't know that then

#

ah, seems like they had one in the summer of 2017, but only for testing and they shutted it down a month later

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:14 PM

#

wrote a launcher script with a config and a nice friendly menu lol

#

I dunno why, not like it was hard to manage the mods from the launch options tbh

#

https://git.fleshless.org/u/fbt/arma3-launcher/ but yeah, if someone wants a simple launcher

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 4:15 PM

#

I'm also doing a launcher in rust for GTK, I guess there never can be enough arma 3 linux launchers 😛

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:15 PM

#

I was annoyed that the existing ones are huge monsters in C++ or smth

#

I just wanted a menu for my mods, really, that's it

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 4:16 PM

#

Thanks for providing that stuff 😉 everyone has a own preference

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:16 PM

#

https://8fw.me/hell/ded61c483008b3f8c715586bbb8614567d92d383.png also this was annoying but not hard to do in bash in... an evening, really.

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 4:16 PM

#

oh you did one in bash 😄 I'm sure we didn't had that yet

#

A cool feature would be saving / loading presets

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:17 PM

#

The thing I kinda regret not thinking through is mod collections. Now it would be super annoying to implement, and I'm tired.

#

It saves a preset, the last one

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 4:17 PM

#

k

#

i will try it out

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:18 PM

#

But yeah, I would need to rewrite most of the script to do that

#

Or not, actually

#

Implemented simple presets: arma3-launcher -p <preset> would switch the filename for the current set

#

And then, after you saved it once, arma3-launcher -p <preset> -s would run it skipping the menu

#

So you can add several shortcuts to Steam or w/e

#

UNIX, bitches.

#

I should implement searching for installed mods tho, it shouldn't be hard to do

sly rover Sep 11, 2018, 4:40 PM

#

Wait, asma, which I rewrote and maintain, is a small thing in C that works alright as a menu for mods. Not claiming it is the best by any measure, but it isn't a huge monster.

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:40 PM

#

A-ha, there's mod.cpp and meta.cpp, one native and one for the workshop

#

Oh, I didn't find it then

sly rover Sep 11, 2018, 4:40 PM

#

But yeah, mod presets are the main thing I want to implement if I ever get to it.

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:41 PM

#

Eh. No mod presets and I specifically want a passthrough mode (skip the menu)

#

Not really criticizing, just not what I wanted

sly rover Sep 11, 2018, 4:41 PM

#

Totally fair.

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:41 PM

#

Also mine is 112 lines of bash 😄

sly rover Sep 11, 2018, 4:41 PM

#

Like I said, definitely not the best.

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:42 PM

#

...to be fair it uses dialog, which is thousands of lines of code

#

Does a mod always have a mod.cpp?

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 4:54 PM

#

no

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:55 PM

#

That's a bit annoying. Is there any 100% present mod file I can latch on to?

#

I would have assumed the meta info file would be one, but hey

#

Oh. the addons dir

#

Nope. also no

covert quiver Sep 11, 2018, 4:58 PM

#

@sly rover btw thanks again for your launcher, I like it the most out of all, also I use your code to learn C by-example

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 4:59 PM

#

And the @ is also not mandatory

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 5:00 PM

#

the addons directory and pbo files inside it

#

that's what almost all mods have

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 5:00 PM

#

almost

#

cries quietly

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 5:00 PM

#

I would have assumed the meta info file would be one no. Only workshop mods

#

well yeah there are mods that have the foldername funkynothingdoermod and are just a empty folder

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 5:00 PM

#

Um. meta.cpp is the workshop one, but there's also a mod.cpp

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 5:01 PM

#

have fun identifying that as a mod

#

yeah mod.cpp is optional

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 5:01 PM

#

I can see that, yeah. Fun!

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 6:02 PM

#

Eh. Scans for mod.cpp, meta.cpp and addons

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

addons is probably enough

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

If some mod doesn't do any of those things — just add it to the config yourself

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

a mod that doesn't have a addons folder doesn't do anything

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

Well. It won't add anything for you, you still have to. But you'll have to KNOW you have a mod like that

#

Because my scan function won't show it to you

#

As far as I can see, it's some dummy stuff that you won't need to enable anyway

#

So yeah, should be enough

gritty sage Sep 11, 2018, 6:04 PM

#

There was once a "bug" where you'd get free debug console access on any server if you loaded a empty modfolder with a specific name 😄

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 6:04 PM

#

kek

scenic pendant Sep 11, 2018, 6:54 PM

#

Pushed a preset menu and a list mode

#

https://git.fleshless.org/u/fbt/arma3-launcher/about/ this should be enough to get going

sly rover Sep 11, 2018, 8:52 PM

#

@covert quiver I feel like learning C from my code is not the greatest, but I am glad you enjoy the launcher ❤

deft carbon Sep 12, 2018, 3:01 AM

#

By the way, I tested Arma 2 OA in the new SteamPlay and it throws an error about missing the license in the registry.

wise canyon Sep 12, 2018, 9:36 AM

#

not all workshop mods have the meta.cpp either

robust sandal Sep 12, 2018, 9:38 AM

#

most of them have

scenic pendant Sep 12, 2018, 10:04 AM

#

Yeah even a rudimentary launcher like that makes your life way easier, should have done it from the start

wise canyon Sep 12, 2018, 10:57 AM

#

JBAD lacks meta.cpp, X-Cam Taunus har wrong ID in it

#

Ares lacks meta.cpp too

scenic pendant Sep 12, 2018, 11:06 AM

#

Yeah that is pretty much why I went with a manual config and a scan mode

#

You let it show you what it got, you copypaste that into your config, correcting wrong info in the process, then add the stuff it couldn't detect.

#

No automagic.

#

I hate automagic.

wise canyon Sep 12, 2018, 11:45 AM

#

😄

coarse dock Sep 13, 2018, 6:00 PM

#

any ETA for 1.84 on linux?

gritty sage Sep 13, 2018, 6:01 PM

#

no

covert quiver Sep 13, 2018, 6:01 PM

#

guys please stop asking, we never get ETAs

gritty sage Sep 13, 2018, 6:01 PM

#

Someone please pin that ^

coarse dock Sep 13, 2018, 6:04 PM

#

i had no idea guys, just started on linux and started wondering why i couldn't connect to my server

scenic pendant Sep 14, 2018, 5:24 AM

#

I mean we could start answering with random dates

#

But then one of these people will turn out to be a game journalist >_>

quasi orchid Sep 14, 2018, 8:42 AM

#

Okay the question is, will there even be a 1.84

#

on lunix/mac

still trench Sep 14, 2018, 11:59 AM

#

Classified

scenic pendant Sep 14, 2018, 2:54 PM

#

Lol. The Karts DLC is 23 rubles for Russians atm

#

About time I've bought the last DLC for myself 😄

sly rover Sep 14, 2018, 10:53 PM

#

Never underestimate the power of the flare gun.

short tulip Sep 18, 2018, 2:38 AM

#

There are three distinct possibilities. 1) They don't plan on doing a 1.84 for the Experimental Ports branch. 2) They are doing a port for 1.84 and it'll be out in about as much time as it took them to get us 1.82. and 3) They are doing a port for 1.84 but they are also porting over the official launcher and everything needed to get as close to version parity as possible. Also, VP is working on a Vulkan-based port for the Linux version to compliment the Mac version's Metal support, so we'd have to wait nearly a year for 1.84.

#

We are in a state of Shrodinger's Port until one of these three are revealed.

pallid spade Sep 18, 2018, 11:29 AM

#

Where did you get this information?

molten pulsar Sep 18, 2018, 11:29 AM

#

he's just speculating

scenic pendant Sep 18, 2018, 10:10 PM

#

Hey. Anyone else experiencing saves not working?
If I save inside a scenario and then try to load, it shits itself and ends the mission for me.

#

I thought it was some mod, but no, vanilla arma 3 behaves like this

#

Unfortunately I can't say since when exactly

#

Haven't died in a mission for a... week I guess

short tulip Sep 19, 2018, 1:10 AM

#

Yeah. I'm just speculating. I have no special information of my own.

scenic pendant Sep 19, 2018, 1:20 AM

#

Fixed by re-creating my profile >_>

deft rampart Sep 22, 2018, 8:11 PM

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJUphbYnpg
LTT promotin Steam Play

sly rover Sep 23, 2018, 2:48 PM

#

That was a description

gritty sage Sep 23, 2018, 2:49 PM

#

It got added after my comment

sly rover Sep 23, 2018, 2:49 PM

#

The power of editing

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:21 PM

#

Tried Arma 3 under Proton

#

It's utter garbage

#

FPS drops to 10 in places, with the same settings as the native one

#

It's unplayable

#

And if I have to downgrade the graphics to play it on a GODDAMN TEN EIGHTY TEE FUCKING I, Ima be pissed.

#

@smoky crater so if you have any say in what happens ^^

#

One more unhappy customer for whom the Proton experience is complete and utter trash, even compared to the lackluster Linux port.

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:24 PM

#

proton probably needs the same special optimizations that eON has made over all the time 😄

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:24 PM

#

Yeah that's the point, eON is already way better than a simple translation layer

#

And if BI drop the VP port because Proton sorta works, expect angry letters with very strong wording lol

#

It doesn't work. That's not a playable solution.

#

That's 10FPS without any mods whatsoever btw

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:26 PM

#

Maybe BI pays VP or someone else to fix up Proton 😄

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:26 PM

#

I expect ACE3 to just kill the game

#

Also the sound is choppy

#

BI will abandon the ports first.
But Valve might 😃

#

I would not be that surprised if, say, VP end up working for Valve.

#

Yeah ACE3 murders the game under Proton

#

Modded Arma 3 seems like a complete non-starter like this

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:30 PM

#

I wonder what the reason is 🤔
Memory allocator. Or just graphics code.
Can't think of anything else

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:31 PM

#

It seems to bottleneck on the CPU way harder than the native port does

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:34 PM

#

Yeah.. Only thing proton should change is syscalls really.. I think..
But if it was just graphics then ACE shouldn't make it much worse.
My guess is on some memory allocators. The allocators are written specificly for windows. With windows specific optimization in some places. Might be a bad idea on linux

#

you could try -malloc=system

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:34 PM

#

For comparison: I get 45+ FPS with the native port and two dozen mods

#

It goes down to an uncomfortable 15 in places on Tanoa

#

But mostly it's 45 and up

#

Yeah no difference with -malloc=system

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:36 PM

#

would be fun to investigate if I had more time 😄

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:36 PM

#

I'll debug it some more later, as I've already went through the steps to force Steam into this unholy union 😄

#

By the way the reason I tried this is I didn't want to go through resetting my profile again so that saves work.

#

But that's not a Linux problem.

#

Saves are severely broken in the base game in some situations, and no one knows how to reliably reproduce this

#

You only find dead threads with people who have given up

#

Some people couldn't finish the campaign because of this.

#

I've narrowed it down to “it breaks after I remove a mod”

#

But not a specific mod, and it's not fixed by adding the mod back

#

Honestly, I thought the VP port was trash, but it's the game itself that is trash

#

Nothing better on the market, sure

#

Still trash

#

If I knew how many problems the game has even on its native system I wouldn't have spent a single cent on it.

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:46 PM

#

I never really used savegames. And I exclusively play MP unless I'm testing something.
I also don't care about save-game compatability with my mods

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:46 PM

#

It's not really a compat problem, it seems

#

They work with all the mods I have

#

They just stop at some point

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:46 PM

#

Especially in areas that only inhibit few people.. like singleplayer for example. Arma get's terrible really quickly

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:46 PM

#

As I've said, the engine is trash

#

Also, people with no mods somehow trigger this too

#

A friend of mine bought the game, launched it on Linux, experienced the glory of the alpha quality of the port, played another 40 minutes of it on Widows and refunded.

#

I'm starting to think his decision was actually smart.

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:50 PM

#

Depends really what you do.

#

Arma isn't just some "casual" game. Atleast i don't think of it as that

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:51 PM

#

Well saves broken isn't some hardcore feature

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:51 PM

#

I never played the full campaign either. I only tried the apex one

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:51 PM

#

It's a fundamental problem

short tulip Sep 26, 2018, 3:51 PM

#

I only did East Wind and never really got into Apex

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:52 PM

#

I also don't care abut the campaign tbh, but I play solo scenarios a lot

#

And as Arma 3 tends to kill you with bullshit like your car suddenly going into space, I at least want to revert the game state

#

It wouldn't be such a problem if the game's AI wouldn't sometimes shoot through solid objects, cars wouldn't go flying into the air.
If I knew every death I had was my fault, maybe I'd play with no saving

#

But it's not. So I don't.

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:54 PM

#

I don't see that much value in Arma as a singleplayer game. It's not the kinda game I like.
Like Minecraft or Garrys mod or other sandbox games. They don't really last long as singleplayer.
Arma multiplayer however lasted me... what.. 4 or 5 years now? or more?

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:54 PM

#

I've played semi-SP Minecraft for years 😄

#

It was really fun to just build complex systems, other people only messed my plans up

#

Also, I would play MP Arma

#

But, you know

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:55 PM

#

Yeah 😄 I know

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:55 PM

#

The whole 1.84 problem

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:55 PM

#

I guess that's another factor.. Arma shines in MP and is garbage in SP.. But if you can only ever really play SP....

#

I thought a couple times about switching over to Linux. Last time I seriously thought about it. Arma stopped me.

warm dune Sep 26, 2018, 3:56 PM

#

I made it to the bad ending of The East Wind, which was an interesting escape scenario.

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:56 PM

#

I mean a few relatively simple things need to be fixed for Arma 3 to not be complete trash in SP.

#

BI just don't care.

#

And I mean... it's not? Really, aside from the bugs, I'd play years of SP.

#

It's just that the bugs make it infuriating

#

And after all this salt, I'll reset my profile and keep playing SP recon

gritty sage Sep 26, 2018, 3:57 PM

#

If I had a list of thousands of bugs I'd also focus on the ones that impact the most people.
And even of these "important" bugs BI doesn't get them done

scenic pendant Sep 26, 2018, 3:58 PM

#

That ammount of technical debt is also not really their customers' fault now is it

#

At work, we also have to deal with technical debt. I get how it works.
But every time you get into the why of it, technical debt is always your fault.

#

It's you who decided to cut corners in the past, and it's you who now has to deal with the consequences.

rigid prism Sep 28, 2018, 4:50 PM

#

I wonder if there will be an official Linux build? I would be very happy about that.

#

Offcourse I want to play with my friends that are using Windows....

gritty sage Sep 28, 2018, 4:51 PM

#

there is already a official linux build

smoky crater Sep 29, 2018, 2:32 AM

#

@scenic pendant i have no say in it whatsoever. its up to BI

#

interesting that Proton/DXVK performs so bad though

covert quiver Sep 29, 2018, 3:42 PM

#

Hey @smoky crater any idea why my joystick and throttle isn't recognized by arma?

warm dune Sep 29, 2018, 3:55 PM

#

I think it's mentioned on the port's wiki page https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Experimental_Ports#Joysticks_.26_Gamepads

smoky crater Sep 29, 2018, 3:59 PM

#

basically we only support gamepads at the XInput level, not at the DirectInput level

#

however you may want to check if theres an SDL gamepad mapping for your particular controller

covert quiver Sep 29, 2018, 4:39 PM

#

libsdl seems to have support for my joystick (http://lists.libsdl.org/pipermail/commits-libsdl.org/2017-January/001392.html)

smoky crater Sep 29, 2018, 4:54 PM

#

we dont use sdl for joystick input

quasi orchid Oct 4, 2018, 8:29 AM

#

saw the #announcements and thought there was an update for macs xd

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 7:52 AM

#

So I have Arma on steam, but when I’m not able to be on my main pc which is Windows I get on my iMac but I can’t open Arma due to the metal API. Do I have to buy another copy

warm dune Oct 6, 2018, 7:54 AM

#

It's the same copy/license thing for all 3 platforms. You don't have to repurchase.

#

Unless you're talking about Cold War Assault which had a separate purchase for the ports.

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 8:05 AM

#

It’s Arma 3

#

Could you explain how I can get it to work, I have it downloaded

warm dune Oct 6, 2018, 8:06 AM

#

Sounds like the Mac port requires Metal. What MacOS version is your iMac?

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 8:06 AM

#

High Sierra

warm dune Oct 6, 2018, 8:07 AM

#

k that's about the extent of Mac knowledge I have, but that version should have Metal in it

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 8:08 AM

#

Do you think it’s an update I haven’t installed?

dry venture Oct 6, 2018, 11:00 AM

#

@quasi orchid what's your gpu?

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 4:45 PM

#

hey, if i just install windows on my imac will it run arma 3?

#

just like a windows pc, but with mac performance

short tulip Oct 6, 2018, 4:47 PM

#

I think you have to physically mod a Mac to work with an OS that's not from Apple. You'd be turning it into what's known as a Hackintosh.

warm dune Oct 6, 2018, 4:48 PM

#

Macs usually have Boot Camp IIRC. A hackintosh would be installing MacOS on non-Apple hardware.

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 4:49 PM

#

but its gonna be exactly like the windows version yeah?like version 1.84? just with mac performance

warm dune Oct 6, 2018, 4:50 PM

#

Probably, you'd be running the Windows version of Arma on Windows.

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 4:51 PM

#

That’s what I tried doing

#

But it just wouldn’t go for it at all

#

so it doesnt work.. ah

#

you have to have a windows disc

#

Or a modern apple pc

#

@dry venture my gpu is AMD Radeon HD 6770M 512MB

#

so it will run if ya have a windows disc or modern apple pc?

#

yeah boot camp will

#

ah, good to know, time to install bootcamp

dry venture Oct 6, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

Metal is supported by all Macs introduced since 2012. (Nvidia, AMD and Intel)
This means :

Intel HD Graphics 4000, Iris 5000 & 6000 family,
nVidia GT 600M, 700M family,
AMD R9 M family,

quasi orchid Oct 6, 2018, 8:18 PM

#

Mine is a mid 2011

scenic sleet Oct 7, 2018, 8:54 AM

#

Anything that old and with a mobile processor will struggle to run Arma 3

covert quiver Oct 7, 2018, 10:42 AM

#

and to that: its a mac lol

quasi orchid Oct 10, 2018, 4:11 PM

#

okay just installed bootcamp, about to run arma. will check with yall if i run into any problems

quasi orchid Oct 11, 2018, 3:40 AM

#

I let my arma download overnight, i launched it today, and experienced no problems. :D

#

so bootcamp does work.

shrewd sigil Oct 12, 2018, 11:45 AM

#

Yeah but it costs money

#

Which sucks

obsidian yarrow Oct 13, 2018, 4:14 PM

#

Boy, isn't it fun when something doesn't work the first 5 times, but the 6th time you run it to get a fresh debug log, everything just works?

sage tendon Oct 14, 2018, 2:29 AM

#

I hate when that happens since I don't get to know what the problem was, and because it often breaks itself again

obsidian yarrow Oct 14, 2018, 2:36 AM

#

I had that happen with arma XD

quasi orchid Oct 14, 2018, 4:43 AM

#

@shrewd sigil it doesnt

#

its free

shrewd sigil Oct 14, 2018, 6:31 AM

#

@quasi orchid No, youve gotta buy a windows product key dont you?

quasi orchid Oct 14, 2018, 6:31 AM

#

@shrewd sigil only if u want to custmize it

shrewd sigil Oct 14, 2018, 6:31 AM

#

Oh ok

warm dune Oct 14, 2018, 6:31 AM

#

You can go without a key but yeah you lose some features and get a watermark I think

quasi orchid Oct 14, 2018, 6:31 AM

#

customize

shrewd sigil Oct 14, 2018, 6:31 AM

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Ok well that works for me

quasi orchid Oct 14, 2018, 6:32 AM

#

yeah bbag is correct

shrewd sigil Oct 14, 2018, 6:32 AM

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So you just download the 64 bit ISO yeah>

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And run bootcamp

scenic pendant Oct 14, 2018, 6:33 AM

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@smoky crater I don't mean to be annoying, and hope asking every few weeks is not too frequent, but any news at all? 😃

quasi orchid Oct 14, 2018, 8:33 AM

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@shrewd sigil yes

sly rover Oct 14, 2018, 6:38 PM

#

@scenic pendant I don't really think it is appropriate to keep asking for news. We never got early news before, we have no reason to expect it now.

scenic pendant Oct 14, 2018, 6:54 PM

#

And he's free to ignore me. I'm not asking for an ETA, more just asking what's up

#

And I think that the situation the port has been in since 1.82 does warrant some communication, if at all possible.

obsidian yarrow Oct 14, 2018, 6:57 PM

#

so from what I understand, the linux dedicated server is the same version as the windows one. Meaning the linux client cannot play on any up to date server?

sly rover Oct 14, 2018, 7:01 PM

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When dwarden starts making hints at us we can expect that maybe an update will be out soon.

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This is how it has been for years.

scenic pendant Oct 14, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

Dude. I will stop being polite in a few sentences. Let. The man. Answer. Or not. For himself. He probably gets the context of my question much better than you do

#

I've not just come in from the street asking for an ETA, we have a bit of a conversation log, some of it going outside of this channel, too.

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Back off.

#

And if I'm being inappropriate, he can tell me that himself, being an adult human being and all.

#

@obsidian yarrow bingo

#

You can downgrade the server tho

obsidian yarrow Oct 14, 2018, 7:05 PM

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That seems... rather foolish

#

oh, that's supported? okay nvm

scenic pendant Oct 14, 2018, 7:06 PM

#

I'm pretty sure people run 1.82 specifically, yeah

#

some people that is

obsidian yarrow Oct 14, 2018, 7:06 PM

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Not that it particularly matters, I'm not skilled enough to reasonably join a server XD

scenic pendant Oct 14, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

To me Arma 3 shines when played in a tight group, so I've never actually bothered with the dedi.
I probably should, some sort of eternal conquest scenario on a linux-friendly server would be nice.

obsidian yarrow Oct 14, 2018, 7:10 PM

#

I've only been playing it singleplayer, and I'm not entirely sure if I can get my friends into it ;p

sly rover Oct 15, 2018, 12:15 AM

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It isn't like you need to be super skilled to play in some casual coop mode.

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If it sounds fun to you, just do it.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 8:08 AM

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@scenic pendant no info for you im afraid.

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 8:09 AM

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Well. No bad news is also sorta good news :D
Thanks anyway.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 8:09 AM

#

from what i do know, the ball is in BI's court

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 8:13 AM

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In the meantime, I'm getting good performance with DXVK now 😃

#

Well. Better. Not completely horrible.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 8:16 AM

#

i wouldnt be surprised if dxvk has made them reconsider

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why pay money for a native port if valve are going to provide a solution thats largely "good enough" and take on all the support hassle..

#

especially so when the linux community is openly hostile to "wrapper ports" but all seem to be in love with proton because it's wine..

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 8:21 AM

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Yeah I really don't understand how is your solution (or similar ones) worse.
Especially since DXVK still won't match its performance.

#

I mean sure, it might not strictly be DXVK's fault, but still.

steep lotus Oct 16, 2018, 8:43 AM

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I guess it's mostly a matter of priciple. People feel disappointed if they have to pay for what they think is just wine wrapped arounda program. Especially so when such ports have had problems in the past which is what peoplea are sying about witcher 2

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Wine and DXVK on the other hand are nice for running games that you used to have on windows but can't play anmore

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I doubt people who complain about "non-native" ports are also buying windows only games for running in wine

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Clearly your wrapper is surperior since it also works with battle eye, but having to wait for months each time a patch is released feels annoynig when you can just run the patch imeadietly in wine

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Assuming you don't care about MP

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 9:04 AM

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VP does the work when BI gives them the code. Thats the main delay.

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but id assume its not as simple as giving them the code, theres the business stuff to take care of in the background

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ie each version of the port has to be paid for

steep lotus Oct 16, 2018, 9:27 AM

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Oh really, that seems dumb

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I've assumed that you started working on the port as soon as a new version is released

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 9:28 AM

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I wouldn't use “dumb” per se, but it does seem to be a suboptimal business arrangement.

#

But then again, you would be hard pressed to find someone who would disagree with that here 😃

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 9:31 AM

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well VP isnt going to do the work for free, and BI obviously need to consider whether its a worthwhile investment

steep lotus Oct 16, 2018, 9:33 AM

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Fair enough, but it seems like making that desicion sooner would only have benefits

#

Also, was that also the case back when the ports were always one or two versions behind, even when newly released?

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 9:35 AM

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im being speculative, i was never involved in any of the business stuff

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however yes i would agree that the big delays are holding it back.. many people wont buy it because of that

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but then for such a small market segment i can understand why BI are hesitant

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 9:50 AM

#

I may sound like a broken record there, but it's a catch 22. Arma 3 on Linux is a subpar product (compared to the Windows version) that costs the same as the main version, requires the user to be fine with a bunch of tinkering, and also you can't play with most of your friends or on most public servers, because 30 people won't downgrade for a Linux user.

And then they use sales of THAT to gauge interest.

#

I'll abstain from harsh words this time, but that is not fair.

#

Oh and also the Linux version is not even promised to be updated or available in the future.
I can't blame people for not putting their money on that. At all.

short tulip Oct 16, 2018, 9:53 AM

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This is the life of the early adopter. It's not pretty or admirable, but we are helping to pave the way for mainstream acceptance of Linux. We have to take the raw deals so that the people who will be coming to Linux in the future don't have to.

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 9:54 AM

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That is all nice and romantic, but doesn't excuse the obviously suboptimal way BI have chosen to gauge the market.

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It was very predictable that not many people would buy the game like this.

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I've only done so when money stopped being an issue for me. For most people, Arma 3 is not a cheap game.

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So Bi are asking early adopters to cough up a sizeable chunk of money for an uncertain future of the port with a clearly and obviously problematic multiplayer experience.
Again, can't blame people for not spending their money.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 9:56 AM

#

the way i see it - BI takes a gamble on supporting Linux... i guess its fair to expect Linux users to take a gamble on supporting them

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 9:57 AM

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And sure, I have. But that's because the cost of Arma 3 is not significant to my budget. I won't lose too much sleep over the port dying in the end.

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I'm not saying it's an entirely shitty thing to do, just... the failure of this scheme should have been predictable from a mile away.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 9:59 AM

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the big problem I have with Linux gaming is that people seem to think they are entitled to equal or superior support to Windows. Sorry, thats just not going to happen yet.

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:00 AM

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Most people I meet are fine with quirks and bugs here and there. We're not talking about an FPS drop.
I can't play with people.

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That's not a minor problem or a performance drop. It's a major disadvantage to a multiplayer title

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I would have assumed everyone in the industry knew by now segregating your userbase is always a bad idea, and that people always react to that badly. It's been proven time and time again.

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It's not a question of Linux being different or maybe not as optimized for gaming or requiring some tinkering. It's a question of “You're asking me to just give you a bunch of money for a game that is essentially singleplayer for me”.

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All the other problems of the port are just... additionally annoying when you have that gaping of a problem right in the center

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I'd probably not even mention them most of the time if I could go join an Exile server right now.

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inb4 I'm a whiny kid who wouldn't have bought the game anyway — paid for 7 copies 😄

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:06 AM

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i get your frustration personally but there are two sides to it

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:06 AM

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Not that you would make that argument @smoky crater that was more to people reading my rant maybe 😃

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And yeah, of course, this is all just the side of the customer.
I'm sure Bohemia aren't just a bunch of evil mustache-twirling Bond villains who want to make everything shittier.

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Most people aren't.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:09 AM

#

the main problem with linux is the cost of investing in doing a port is often far greater than the returns

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thing is when you say that, the linux community immediately shouts "bollocks!" even though its completely true

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:11 AM

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I've been telling people to calm their tits about linux games being profitable for years kek.
Yes, some do make money, even most do these days apparently. Probably thanks to Valve establishing a consistent userbase

#

But it's still a small niche, and if you target it, you might easily not get enough sales just because the niche is so small to begin with

#

To companies I would say: support Linux if you can afford to, not if you want to directly make money off of it.

#

Support it because it's the right thing to do to support lots of platforms, to support opensource — If you care about these things — but don't bet on it what you can't easily lose.

#

Maybe support it as a long-term future investment, given how Valve are still pushing hard for Linux to compete in the gaming space

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An unsure one, of course.

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It's way easier for some classes of software to sell on Linux ofc, but games aren't it 😄

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:15 AM

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the big problem is the community often gets abusive when things are not perfect, and that leads developers to just think "fuck it", and pull out

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already happened now several times

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:15 AM

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I think part of it is just how awkward a lot of people in the community are

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A lot of us are geeks/nerds with less than perfect social skills LUL

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:16 AM

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eg ive seen some games which turn out to have linux bugs because of bugs in the underlying engine eg Unity, something the game dev can do nothing about. Yet the abuse gets directed at the game dev

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:17 AM

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Yeah, EVERSPACE devs talked about the community being aggressive about bugs too, which for them pushed the actual Linux release way beyond what was planned till most of the problems could be ironed out.

#

Although those guys did make a profit on Linux IIRC, and ended up having an in general positive experience in the end.

#

Maybe because they've released a very well working product, dunno.

#

It has a minor graphical glitch with one of the ships, that's it.

#

Although another — very real — possibility is that when people start up their first mission in the game, they just lose any and all ability to complain about it LUL

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In contrast, what little we've heard from the CDRP guys, they don't want to have anything to do with Linux after Witcher 2

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:22 AM

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im not surprised after the abuse they got

#

also, dxvk is actually proving something interesting

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:22 AM

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And I just have to wonder if that would have happened if the port didn't release with as many problems.
Doesn't excuse people being shitty ofc.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:22 AM

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theres still render glitches in w3 under it because vulkan doesnt support needed things. those things are being added to vulkan as a consequence

#

now.. if VP had done that port and we'd said Vulkan didnt support some things we needed

#

a) the community wouldve called bullshit

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b) the vulkan devs wouldnt have added stuff for us

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also if we'd done it when it was supposed to be done, it wouldve been GL anyway

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:24 AM

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Oh you don't know the half of it. There's some HUGE money behind DXVK currently.
I get your point, and you're probably right in principle, but I have to say something about DXVK specifically.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:24 AM

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yes things were not right with the linux release of W2 but nothing justified the way the community behaved

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i had people seeking me out on my personal facebook, twitter and steam accounts and sending me death threats

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:25 AM

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Treat this as food for thought: Vulkan has gotten Transform Feedback this Saturday. 9 hours after that DXVK has gotten the code needed to support it. A few hours later we had PRoton release with the needed WINE and DXVK patches

#

It happened so insanely fast there can be a single explanation — money.

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:25 AM

#

yes, probably because Valve

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 10:26 AM

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Yeah. My point is they didn't care to pose this as a question to the community. If they did, they would have gotten the response given in the first issue raised on this earlier this year

#

The answer was “Fuck off we do not care”

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Essentially

#

Then suddenly Valve starts pouring money and man hours into WINE, Vulkan and DXVK and it's an essential feature that needs to be implemented NOW

#

What Valve did instead of arguing is just buy Kronos off LUL.

#

Obviously not everyone can do that

#

Then again, you can't say they aren't efficient. A lot of Unity games work insanely well on WINE now because of this, it was a major problem.

#

While some games like Witcher 3 or Tarkov used Transform Feedback on some character models, this resulted in just missing models. Witcher 3 was still largely playable.
A lot didn't work at all.

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Oh btw there is transform feedback support in the DX->GL translation layer that WINE has. It's just horribly slow.

#

I'm assuming the DXVK implementation, thanks to using a Vulkan extension directly, is less compute-intensive

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:35 AM

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the problem is we couldnt have released "largely playable". we wouldve had to pass CDPR's QA

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so it'd have to have been fully working, or it wouldnt have got released

smoky crater Oct 16, 2018, 10:55 AM

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ah well i guess im just largely bitter. ive left doing porting work largely now

scenic pendant Oct 16, 2018, 12:34 PM

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Oh I'm not really talking about W3 being good enough without models, I've dropped it till that got fixed myself. It was in the context of “some games largely worked while others were hard-blocked by this problem”

plush carbon Oct 16, 2018, 3:25 PM

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I do really really really hope that we get an on par version with win very soon so i can finaly remove that bluegreenyellowred cancer from my harddrive.

timber fossil Oct 17, 2018, 12:47 AM

#

Anyone able to use steam controller on Linux branch?

scenic pendant Oct 17, 2018, 2:50 AM

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I could test it if someone sent me one wink-wink

steep lotus Oct 17, 2018, 6:50 AM

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I've kind of used it but I never managed to figure out how to map it properly @timber fossil

#

Also, I vaguely recall there being an issue where the game crashes if a controller is connected in the current version

scenic sleet Oct 17, 2018, 9:11 AM

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@Roman that bug has been fixed, but will only come with the next release if that ever happens

#

@timber fossil ^^

pallid spade Oct 17, 2018, 2:53 PM

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Is there any way to run Arma 3 Tools on Linux?

gritty sage Oct 17, 2018, 2:56 PM

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There is armake if you just need to build pbo's

flint raven Oct 18, 2018, 6:09 PM

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Is there any way to play Arma 3 via Steam's Proton? Isnt possible via Steam Client cus there is ~~the damn outdated port~~ the Linux Port 🙁

steep lotus Oct 18, 2018, 6:24 PM

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You could probably install steam in wine and use the proton executable to play the windows version

timber fossil Oct 19, 2018, 12:09 AM

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@scenic sleet Thank you very much my man!

flint raven Oct 19, 2018, 11:07 AM

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@steep lotus i managed to download the windows version via steamcmd but i cant figure out where the proton executable is and how to use it

steep lotus Oct 19, 2018, 12:40 PM

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I've never done it myself

scenic sleet Oct 19, 2018, 2:52 PM

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most of the reports from those who have done it say it's unplayable, performance is too bad

#

plus forget online, there's no battleye support (and likely never will be)

scenic pendant Oct 19, 2018, 8:39 PM

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Well. Forget playing on public secured servers

#

Which is already true with the version lag anyway

#

And the performance is pretty neat with the new DXVK and WINE

#

Still worse than the port tho.

flint raven Oct 19, 2018, 11:54 PM

#

k thx for the info

timber fossil Oct 25, 2018, 8:51 PM

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just play the linux version

molten pulsar Oct 26, 2018, 11:12 AM

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still not a single word on a port update huh

scenic sleet Oct 26, 2018, 11:19 AM

#

nope, and this time I really have just given up hope. The fact that BI employees were holding unofficial polls to show support for the linux client suggests that management were looking to abandon the port, since that time there's been no mention of a port, no new branches in steam for port updates and even a VP insider saying that BI haven't asked them to work on the next version. Combined with the announcement of Steam Play (Proton), I think chances are high that they've pulled the plug - or at least that they won't release any further updates until Arma 3 development ends instead of paying VP repeatedly for each point release.

molten pulsar Oct 26, 2018, 11:21 AM

#

☹

short tulip Oct 26, 2018, 12:36 PM

#

If they're having VP work on Vukan support for the Linux version, I'd like to know about it. The silence about this is maddening. Although I admit that following the development of a certain heavily crowd-funded game kinda spoiled me.

covert quiver Oct 26, 2018, 1:20 PM

#

Yea, BI should just tell us whether someone is doing something about the port, or if they abandoned us

short tulip Oct 26, 2018, 1:21 PM

#

It's entirely possible that things are up in the air and they can't say without enough certainty to be able to commit to one choice or another.

quasi orchid Oct 26, 2018, 1:25 PM

#

rip

covert quiver Oct 26, 2018, 3:13 PM

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@scenic pendant I wouldn't say its the norm, I play DCS World mostly and the devs are very open about something like this

#

Most other games like Garrys mod too

#

AFAIk

scenic sleet Oct 26, 2018, 3:51 PM

#

just to be clear, I don't want to be right about this, I really hope I'm wrong. Arma means a lot to me, it's really the only thing that could possibly come close to persuading me to go back to windows after 15+ years of Linux

sly rover Oct 26, 2018, 9:22 PM

#

I don't know why you all are freaking out about this. Yes, they could cancel it at any time. But they also have had much longer gaps in updates, never with any communication, and still continued to deliver in the past. We will just have to wait and see.

covert quiver Oct 26, 2018, 9:43 PM

#

were they ever longer gaps?

#

I think the last update was in May

short tulip Oct 26, 2018, 9:44 PM

#

The longest gap was in order to make sure that the Mac version of ARMA 3 used Metal.

covert quiver Oct 26, 2018, 9:45 PM

#

i think that was november - march

covert quiver Oct 27, 2018, 8:16 PM

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We know they owe us nothing lol, but It's still not very popular to not communicate with the customers at all

molten pulsar Oct 28, 2018, 12:38 PM

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pretty sure most of us in here talk in a "would be nice if" kind of way

left fog Oct 28, 2018, 12:39 PM

#

FM was reacting to someone who was already banned (agressive behaviour)

molten pulsar Oct 28, 2018, 12:41 PM

#

alrighty, that wasn't apparent 😃

scenic sleet Oct 28, 2018, 12:44 PM

#

Yeah, when that content gets deleted it makes for a confusing situation. Thanks for that clarification Dwarden

verbal nova Oct 28, 2018, 3:30 PM

#

Sorry for the confusion.

timber fossil Oct 29, 2018, 1:05 AM

#

it would be nice if we dropped the mac version and focused more on linux 😉

strange mango Oct 29, 2018, 5:44 AM

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isnt apple where the money is at? at least thats what you get told 🤐

scenic sleet Oct 29, 2018, 10:03 AM

#

so they say, but I wonder if that's not just an assumption because the Apple share is 1% larger. In my own experience, most Apples are in fact used in offices or business/artistic types - not the core gamer demographic, whereas I'd say it's pretty safe bet that an overwhelming majority of linux users are gamers.

#

I'd also add that there's a lot of money to be had from Linux users, a significant proportion work in the IT sector earning proportionally high salaries. So is there more money to be had from the Apple crowd than the linux crowd ... I honestly doubt it.

wise canyon Oct 29, 2018, 10:19 AM

#

According to Steam’s own data there are a lot more macOS users than Linux

#

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam

#

Click ”OS Version” to see a drilldown

scenic sleet Oct 29, 2018, 10:37 AM

#

everyone acknowledges there are more macOS users, the question was is there more money to be had from macOS users (for games).

verbal nova Oct 29, 2018, 10:38 AM

#

I played Arma and A2 on a MacBook Pro until 2010.

short tulip Oct 29, 2018, 10:39 AM

#

I admit that sometimes, I do forget this fact. It just baffles me why it's even still true.

scenic sleet Oct 29, 2018, 10:42 AM

#

a much more interesting statistic would be the average number of games owned (and played) by Linux users vs Mac users

#

of course things like Bootcamp, Wine/dual-boot muddy the picture considerably

wise canyon Oct 29, 2018, 2:33 PM

#

another interesting fact which might impact macOS vs Linux is the difference between user behavior on iOS vs Android

#

iOS users spend a lot more on apps than Android

#

Apple App Store have a higher percentage of paid apps than Google Play Store

#

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/16/apples-app-store-revenue-nearly-double-that-of-google-play-in-first-half-of-2018/

TechCrunch

Sarah Perez

Apple’s App Store revenue nearly double that of Google Play in f...

Apple’s App Store continues to outpace Google Play on revenue. In the first half of the year, the App Store generated nearly double the revenue of Google Play on half the downloads, according to a new report from Sensor Tower out today. In terms of dollars and cents, that...

covert quiver Oct 29, 2018, 5:32 PM

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there are not many apps on google play which have no free alternative which is easy to find

#

since apple store (itunes?) has far less apps you cant find much alternatives to a paid app

#

my dad had a ipad once and it way a pain in the ass to find some basic apps (maybe that changed, but I dont think so)

#

And It seemed to me that the app store recommends (shows before other apps) paid apps

#

or maybe most apps are paid in the app store