Isee what you did there.
#linux_mac_branch
slim mountain
still trench
I don't know if advertising of servers is allowed here, but i'm waiting in ArmAOnUnix server alone to play some Combat patrol or End game if we have more ppl. All free to join. Teamwork and milsim tactics are encoureged but not enforced.
covert quiver
hm you are right, but since the server browser isnt working and the AoU server is the only one (actively maintained) for ports AFAIK
plz no ban BI :/
still trench
And i'm about to even post IP of the server for convenience
if i get banned... remeber me! π
92.52.6.237
left fog
ye use the official server list at https://arma3.com/servers (ok that will not work, all were updated to 1.84) and the community server list https://arma3.swec.se/server/list for direct connect with 1.82 ports (at least until the server browser gets fix)
covert quiver
how to filter versions?
left fog
stepped into own trap of server listing and mumbles something about ports being out of sync , yet again π
you can click on swec at the version column for sorting but i don't see filters
dusk ermine
talking about filters, since we dont have a launcher for filtering 1ΒΊ person view only servers, is it possible to add that for the port?
deft rampart
I just wanted to drop in to say that I never considered buying the game because the Linux version always lags behind.
thorn spindle
i only play on linux so having the port updated more often would be a big plus
quasi orchid
I love arma3 the linuxversion. I have 298 h at it. But I would love to play king of the hill....
covert quiver
playing arma 3 now since 2014 i love that theres work beeing done for linux & mac, but its a huge downside that it takes so long
scenic quarry
I wish that the Linux version would become official
errant cosmos
dang 10 min timer 
flint olive
I have the linux version, but hardly play due unsync with windows version ...
still trench
I wonder if that new BI engine will have native Linux support
short tulip
Last I heard, the engine that BI plans to use for ARMA 4 is the Enfusion engine that's being made for the standalone version of DayZ. And it doesn't seem that it's going to come with Mac/Linux support built-in.
still trench
@flint olive there is some servers for port users. I'm currently playing on ArmaOnUnix server at 92.52.6.237 Population is low, fluctuates from 5 to 15 atm, but if you join, others may follow. I'm encouraging and running missions there in semi milsim fashion. Give it a try
smoky crater
unofficial comment (i dont speak for VP) - if Enfusion supported Vulkan that would definitely make porting to Linux much more feasible
however I could understand them sticking with DX11
molten pulsar
don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure that they've mentioned cross platform stuff in one of their DayZ/Enfusion dev videos
not too sure if Linux specifically was mentioned though
short tulip
I looked through the Steam Community Hub for DayZ, and I stand corrected. They do plan on supporting Linux.
molten pulsar
nice π
scenic pendant
Joined to add to the linux/mac user counter π
hollow olive
tight shoal
π§
long sphinx
I would be great to have a linux port
btw, my realtek audio driver is broken at windows 10 atm
so, I can't dual boot to play it anymore π¦
smoky crater
realtek's latest driver is broken on all of windows
long sphinx
I got tired of it
really
I've been fixing more bugs at windows since the win 7 than on linux
smoky crater
i had to download the 2.81 driver from another page to get my audio to work right again after upgrading it
quasi orchid
Is the Linux port generally kept up to date to be compatible for multiplayer with people using the Windows version?
smoky crater
though, if you just want basic audio without any of the extra realtek features, the standard audio driver will work
quasi orchid
I've been wanting to buy Arma 3 for awhile now, but I'm afraid that I will not be able to play multiplayer with my friends who use Windows.
chrome magnet
not really
smoky crater
currently the Mac/Linux ports are typically one release behind the Windows one
make it known that you want more support for the ports and maybe BI will change this π
quasi orchid
Are they using a third party company to do the Linux and Mac ports? Is that why there is a delay?
quasi orchid
As much as I love the companies who do these ports, it seems like for a game like Arma 3 where multiplayer compatibility is important, it might be better for them to build the different versions in-house.
Does being a single version behind typically break compatibility?
hidden grail
your friends can downgrade tho, to be able to play with you
quasi orchid
Does Steam allow downgrading?
hidden grail
also keep in mind that most of the server will not be available for u
yes, you need to use a beta key
dusk ermine
they can have both versions installed too
eager elm
@smoky crater Will the linux port ever get rotorlib support?
long sphinx
@quasi orchid you gotta choose the legacy branch
smoky crater
i dont know about rotorlib. i think this is a licensing issue. i dont think it's available for Macs either
quasi orchid
Would definitely like to see better version parity on the linux version. I've owned arma 3 pretty much since I heard about the experimental linux build. It was just out of sync with windows version for so long I never played it since almost no servers were available. I was always worried the experimental builds would get canned because nobody was playing them... but nobody was playing them because multiplayer was useless. Frustrating situation
eager elm
Well on their page they have "Headache-free licensing" under features, so it can't be that π
smoky crater
@eager elm it depends what that means. If it's charged per platform then that could be a very expensive cost
a lot of middleware is licensed per platform
eager elm
I know, It just made me chuckle
smoky crater
as a porter i've had this with much middleware in the past. For example Bink, they license this per platform and while for Windows/consoles the cost can be justified and recovered, for OS X and Linux it cannot - it's far too expensive
winter tulip
@left fog Hi. First of all, count me π So far I have not bought Arma III for Linux. Why? Because when I buy a game I need to know that I not waste my money. Why am I writing this? Because if I buy a game today, you can let me know for half a year that you are giving up with Linux version and drop developmend of it. So then I will stay with game in which I will not be able to play online with friends, eg those who use Windows. So why I should buy it today? I know this is very good port made by VP, I have heard a lot of good about this port and watch many videos in YT and I saw benchmarks where performance was very good. So I want to thank you for that - everyone involved in the development of Arma III for Linux - thank u π That's why I will buy this game, if you make it officially supported on Linux. You will add the Linux icon, hardware requirements on Steam. And you promise that you will not abandon the development of the Linux version. Then I will buy this game with all additions with pleasure. Trust me. In addition, it would be an advantage to release new versions for Linux at the same time as the Windows versions. And if it is not possible, then at least accelerate release of them. At the end off the subject - Thanks for the release Arma: Cold War Assault for Linux. I bought and played it and I have to say it is very good. That's why I am asking you to also release the other old games from the Arma series to Linux. Possible? π§
scenic sleet
@smoky crater what about TrackIR support. No license issues there, hardware works on linux, it's just missing the glue for use in game
remote widget
I tried the game recently (on a free weekend and that is a very good port) but as you know , multiplayer is not being synced with Windows + no SteamOS icon on store just kills the mood.
BTW , not related to Arma but what is going on with VP? You guys were doing awesome single player game ports like Bioshock Infinite. I know that hype died down but you're really silent when compared to Feral
smoky crater
cant speak officially for VP but since the failure of steam machines, AAA publishers lost interest
winter tulip
@remote widget Well @smoky crater left from company and now no one know how to port games to Linux π No no, I'm just kidding.
remote widget
Of course , but Feral is still doing AAA ports despite they are mostly strategy ones
And that is also reasonable because strategy games are not on consoles , so Linux is bigger on strategy niche
Damn , we need another push from either Valve or some other company
smoky crater
ultimately linux versions do not make a lot of profit.. if any profit
thin slate
Hey! I came here to say I'd love for the Linux version to keep more up to date with the Windows version π
remote widget
Well , i'm just comparing my situation now vs 3 years ago on Windows : I'm spending much more just for supporting devz
Linux versions are not doing profit much because when you port a 5 year old game to a dual booter , they already have it
Lol , that is why we need another console like push for people who don't know about dual booting
Just buying console and playing
smoky crater
another issue is linux users typically expect the port gratis if they bought the windows version before. its not workable like that
mac users tend to pay for the port even if they bought a windows version previously
remote widget
How they are doing that exactly? Deleting game from steam and re buying it?
smoky crater
thats not really an issue here for ARMA 3, but it is an issue for other ports
@remote widget well i meant in general - typically Mac users buy from Mac App Store
winter tulip
@smoky crater like Arma Cold War Assault?
remote widget
Ahh , the great ecosystem you say
smoky crater
and well yes ArmA CWA is also an example, but we got a lot of stick for that title
there were a lot of accusations of "greed" mostly from the Linux community because ArmA CWA was not sold as a Steamplay title
scenic pendant
@smoky crater if you want someone to blame for people not wanting to pay for ports, blame Steam with its SteamPlay push.
Personally, I would pay for ports just fine.
And have done so.
remote widget
@smoky crater Cwa issue was different , nobody cared about it is price. That was the moral questioned there
winter tulip
but maybe thanks to "no steamplay" the port paid off financially?
remote widget
If that becomes a trend , than it would ultimately blocks already hard migration to impossible
smoky crater
@scenic pendant Valve are aware Steamplay doesnt work for everyone which is why they now allow titles to be sold by individual platforms
scenic pendant
I think it's still possible to sell version platforms separately on Steam btw.
Oh. Good.
smoky crater
the problem is people now expect it
so when you sell a Mac or Linux version separately, it is percieved as greediness
scenic pendant
That is a problem, but you listen to the vocal minority too much.
smoky crater
the problem is it is not the "minority"
scenic pendant
Which is a problem by iself heh
smoky crater
ive talked about this in an interview on boilingsteam and on reddit before. it is about signal to noise ratio
remote widget
Well , that is also a standart on GOG
That is the way multiplatform stores are taking
smoky crater
single SKU only works if you are the developer of all of the platforms
otherwise, it doesnt
scenic pendant
It's just that if you think a few narrow-minded people calling you greedy online affects sales that much...
The fact that Witcher 2 on WINE still works better for me that the native version β that would be an example of an actual problem affecting sales a lot.
Or, say, the lack of version parity with ARMA 3.
smoky crater
im not willing to go into witcher 2 as there has been far too much shit thrown around, mostly untrue, about that port
remote widget
@smoky crater Or it can work when you port a recent title rather than a 20 year old title
Which people already lost interest
scenic pendant
Note that I'm not throwing shade here. The simple fact is, if you have a shit launch AND pretty significant problems with the port down the road, you can't blame things like people being mean for low sales.
remote widget
@scenic pendant No , i literally tried it. Linux version of Witcher 2 works good unless you turn on ubershaders
scenic pendant
@remote widget good for you. I've tried recently and it was still better under WINE for me.
Maybe my setup is to blame, I dunno. Maybe.
smoky crater
ubersampling in W2 doesnt work well on Windows either. I actually argued for leaving the option out of the configuration settings
ubersampling is something like "render each frame 8 times then blend the results together".. so yeah.
scenic pendant
For ARMA 3, the significant problems part would be version parity btw.
I'm well aware that the game is far from bug-free on Windows :D
Singleplayer seems fun enough for now tho.
winter tulip
@scenic pendant I still have W2 on the disk and I will tell you that it works perfectly.
upbeat gyro
I'm fine paying separately for a port, 90+% of my games are linux native and I've waited to purchase games until they were ported. However a larger problem is about the time it takes for a port to come to Linux, WINE can be almost as good...then there's the economics since most games 2-3 years old are sold for 50+% off...
smoky crater
as the porter, i would agree that version parity seems top priority to me
scenic pendant
Are most mods linux-compatible with ARMA3 btw? Or at least most popular ones?
I've not found one that doesn't work yet
But maybe I'm just lucky
smoky crater
if the mod is entirely script engine based it should work.
if it requires DLL extensions, it wont
scenic pendant
Makes sense
So if the versions were the same, we'd theoretically have a decent chance of actually being compatible with Windows players, at least sometimes.
smoky crater
technically eON could run the Windows DLL mods but that is a huge can of worms we dont want to open
@scenic pendant yes, with version parity they are compatible
scenic pendant
Cool.
smoky crater
we had parity with 1.80 for a time
scenic pendant
I'm not counting on that tho.
Setting up a linux-friendly server as we speak π
smoky crater
and the game is network tested with the equivalent Windows version
also as im sure people know, we have full BattlEye compatibility, with native Mac/Linux builds of BattlEye being used (something WINE wont ever have)
scenic pendant
Nice.
dusk ermine
task force radio / acree doesnt work on linux (at least the last year) @scenic pendant
smoky crater
task force radio uses a dll extension to communicate with teamspeak
deft carbon
I used to play Arma 2 back when I used Windows. I switched to Linux a few years ago. I have played Arma 3 a little bit and I would like to play more but I don't want to use Windows to do it. If Arma 3 was better supported on Linux I would play it a lot more than I do. Additionally, I don't own any of the DLC, so I would buy that if Arma 3 was better supported on Linux.
I would (grudgingly) be willing to pay for the game again if that's really what it took to get it on Linux. I bought several copies of Arma: Cold War Assault Mac/Linux for my friends and myself. But many users wouldn't do this.
Also, I would think that Bohemia would benefit in other ways if Arma 3 worked on Linux. Having a multiplatform codebase might improve the performance of Arma 3 on Windows, it might improve Arma 3 Server, and also it would give Bohemia a first-party app to test BattlEye on Linux.
Elaboration on "better Windows performance": http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/
left fog
excellent discussion, keep it coming, i read it all 
crisp agate
I got into Arma 2 via DayZ, then bought Arma 3 when that was announced. Later I switched to Linux but Arma was one of the games that kept me dual booting Windows. I was pretty surprised when I saw that Arma 3 got a Linux version, even if it was experimental. Very unexpected, but made me respect BI even more than I already did. β€ I'm currently limited to playing with friends only, since most public servers follow Windows version. Version parity would be awesome, and joystick support in the port is also not up to par. Despite the limitations I considered it good enough to be worth buying the DLC I was still missing. I'm hoping Linux support will be a serious consideration from the start for future projects. And finally a big thank you to everyone who lobbied for this port to get made, even as an afterthought. π
still trench
I saw ppl talking about selling games seperatly on diferent platforms. Didn't get what was issue with that. Do you think selling seperetaly is necessery to cover porting cost? I'm a bit lost in context
smoky crater
yes, i would say it is neccesary. We do not get any payment from previous Windows sales
well, this doesnt apply for ARMA 3 but in general it does
still trench
Oh, i was about to ask about A3 exactly that
left fog
Arma 3 is special case @deft carbon it's on engine (Real Virtuality) foundations from 2 decades ago and asking for fully native port at this stage bit late (with whole new engine (Enfusion) being work in progress and partly tested (dayz experimental 0.63 onward))
smoky crater
@left fog do you know if they plan Vulkan support, even if its only Windows ?
left fog
for Enfusion ? i can't say nay or yay let say it feels fine π
but remembe already been like 1.5 years since Khronos started talk about Vulkan replacement (sucessor), which would include merge of OpenCL and rumored also OpenVR
smoky crater
well they screwed up with GL Next/Vulkan anyway, it took them far too long to decide
left fog
what didn't too long to decide in Khronos waters?
smoky crater
indeed and they created a fracture as Apple got sick of waiting too
left fog
anyway DX12 is logical to support anyway because of XBOX consoles not just Windows
so most likely it will be one or all of them as long as it's easily modular
would not worry about render and API, too early
smoky crater
yes too many people place too much import on "one 3d api to rule them all". It doesnt happen... every multiplatform engine ive worked on has been modular if required and had platform specific render api's
timid matrix
D3D12 is not logical. LOL, it just pulls you into the captive hands of Micro$oft, only being able to run on their platforms.
smoky crater
even Windows and Xbox 360 tend to be separate codepaths
@timid matrix yes, but that is the platform where the money is
also they have better tools
timid matrix
Developing on Windows is a PITA vs Linux. what are you talking about? You need to pay for a bunch of shit, or download a crapton of bullshit.
smoky crater
wrong
timid matrix
And even then, their version of coding is retarded.
They need to stick to the standard language,
smoky crater
sorry, but thats nonsense. fanboyism like that wont sell your platform
wtf are you talking about
windows uses C/C++ like Macs and like Linux
timid matrix
Like, they replace private const *uchar with UCHAR, and shit like that that makes it not being able to compiled by an actual standard compiler.
smoky crater
uchar is not a standard
timid matrix
Well it is used heavily in UE3.
smoky crater
and ? such things are easily typedef'd away. in fact the windows UCHAR is a typedef
you can always use stdint.h types
timid matrix
If shit can't be comipled on Linux, then there are some platform specific bullshit going on, it's not fucking hard to make different includes for different OSs, game devs are simply too fucking lazy, and all they think about is money, when headers and included C/C++ are all they have to fucking write.
timid matrix
And those projects are open source, so someone could make an adapter if they so choose to do so.
smoky crater
yet when someone makes an adapter to provide Win32 API's on Linux, it's decried as "lazy wrapper"
timid matrix
Pretty much all game assets, such as textures, models, are compatable to work on Linux. And alot of games, that is where most of the investment goes in.
smoky crater
mmmhm
i shall give you a hint that i know what im talking about
i work on the arma 3 port π
timid matrix
You have no roles. lol
still trench
Keep it civil guys
timid matrix
How is it not civil? Is there a dictator here?
smoky crater
dont try to tell me linux is superior to windows on coding. it is not. all platforms are different. all have their strengths and weaknesses
timid matrix
You can edit anything in Linux without having to go to third party sites to get software, all you need is a text editor, and a compiler, that's it.
smoky crater
the same is true of windows
timid matrix
And a hex editor if you are hardcore.
smoky crater
go get notepad++ and MS provide the compiler toolchain+headers completely free
timid matrix
Windows has no good text editor, Notepad is trash, and it has no hex editor.
timid matrix
Notepad++ is not M$. so if you call that first-party, kill yourself.
Neither is HxD.
Windows's CMD is fucking shit too.
smoky crater
right.. and Vi or Emacs or Kate or Sublime Text are not "first party "linux either
neither is gcc
timid matrix
After so many years with Windows NT, it's still garbage.
vi is in coreutils.
GCC is in the GNU software set.
smoky crater
right, are either of them developed by the Linux kernel devs ? No.
and who cares
i can get good tools on Windows, i can get them on OS X, i can get them on Linux
so whats your point
remote widget
@timid matrix Your describe of Windows is faulty , it should be like that:
Garbage that everyone uses so that is a beloved garbage
smoky crater
Actually, i use gcc and code::blocks on Windows to develop for ARM and AVR microcontrollers
timid matrix
Also git is shit on Windows, git is made by the original Linux kernel dev too.
smoky crater
funny, git works just fine for me on windows
smoky crater
cant say its any slower for me than it is on my Linux box or my Mac
timid matrix
Anyway, I have shit to do, I was only invited here from the Linux_gamer_group, and I don't actually own any Arma game, so I'm out of here.
smoky crater
mightve known you were just a troll
silent fern
hey all, can I ask a very noob linux server question here?
smoky crater
youve done a mighty fine job of showing people that theres agood portion of the linux community who are just utter dickheads
ive lost count of how many Linux "developers" ive spoken to over the years who have parrotted exactly the same bullshit he just has
still trench
I'd like to ask about issues with server browser on A3. We were discusing that on our comminity alot and as now i have first hand source, what was the issue with it it? Was it lack of testing or maybe deadlines. This feature seems a bit hard to miss to see broken
smoky crater
and incidentally, its nonsense like that that gets linux a negative image when you try to get big game devs to take it seriously
quasi orchid
Vulkan is the only way forward.
smoky crater
@brave ivy nope.
silent fern
Dumb question: based on the Linux dedicated server stuff that bohemia provides, I can't seem to get the server.cfg file to take - is there something thats key beyond the launch variable including it?
or should I ask elsewhere
smoky crater
@silent fern ask at #server_linux
silent fern
thanks
smoky crater
@still trench we're aware of it. Not sure what the issue is yet.
still trench
Also hosting over uPnP is broken. No errors shown sometimes, tho it still doesnt go through
Well, i was asking kinda were you awere of the issue before releasing
smoky crater
no we werent aware of it. not sure about uPnP here - are you referring to linux?
naive charm
Been sitting in the fence buying this as I have an AMD card and wasn't sure if the Linux version would continue.
still trench
Yes, linux, maybe nobody reported that
smoky crater
as for how the bug happened, we dont know yet, but when we find out, ze testers vill be shot π
@still trench as far as i know for Linux one has to manipulate the firewall manually
still trench
Ok, thanks for info, i'll look more into it
Honestly whole arma franchise has some ubelievable facepalming records of bugs, it just wouln't feel ArmA without them :D
Especialy at launch
smoky crater
no comment π
i typically just find myself getting my head shot off by some unseen sniper π
still trench
I get repositioned by funky physics alot. Better be aware of that campfire, or you might find your self 2 kilos away :D
wispy breach
well i'm just going to use ubuntu 18 lts just so the dev's have it easy π
still trench
I'm Ubuntu peasant as well π€
smoky crater
physics engine spazzing is pretty much an associated danger of using a physics engine in any game π
deft rampart
Xubuntu here
smoky crater
i use Xubuntu myself
though i also have fedora, suse, mint and antergos on the dev box to test
wispy breach
ya I have other computers I mostly stick with enterpriseish types like ubuntu ,fedora and opensuse.
smoky crater
wish there was abit less distro fragmentation tbh but we mostly deal with it
glibc issues are a pain
still trench
I'm not a Linux fan boy, just and admierer. Dual boot with windows. Still, very happy to see A3 on linux. Playing it on mainly there. I must say performance is even better then win on the same machine but my win is abit cluthered so thats why
smoky crater
a selfcontained dev package like steam-runtime would be good, unfortunately valve dropped the ball on their latest one
its only any good if you use makefiles and we dont
in fact the fact that the dev tools are baked into the system on linux rather than being self contained is actually a disadvantage
wispy breach
I only recently picked up arma 3. So i'm cannon fodder i suppose.
ue4.20 has the clang tool chain and third party stuff in a folder and it's self contained. maybe epic will make a flatpak or snap soon.?
smoky crater
thats probably just to compile the C# code you can use with UE4
ultimately i'd like a compiler toolchain thats in a selfcontained folder but building gcc yourself is a complete nightmare
wispy breach
ue4.20 ignores the clang version installed and compiles with the tool chain v11 clang 5. all previous versions would use the system for compiling
all the game engines are using clang these day's.
sly rover
Holy crap, this channel has been busy
wispy breach
The devloper's can take note that a lot Linux users do have multiple computers that can be used for servers and Lan parties. π
deft carbon
@left fog "asking for fully native port at this stage bit late (with whole new engine (Enfusion) being work in progress and partly tested" I hope that new engine Enfusion is being developed with cross-platform in mind
@left fog Also you mentioned DX12 being logical to support because Xbox, but I'd like to point out that Vulkan lets you support PS4, Switch, Android, Linux, Mac (MoltenVK), and Windows (all versions, while DX12 only runs on Windows 10). Vulkan pretty much runs everywhere that isn't Xbox. Xbox also supports DX11, which also makes sense for Windows devices too old to run Vulkan.
left fog
my comment wasn't ruling out either API
smoky crater
Android is irrelevant
deft carbon
PS4 has announced support for Vulkan but it's not out yet
smoky crater
MoltenVK is not a "fit and forget" layer
left fog
the new engine shall be API agnostic so it's just another module
deft carbon
Android being irrelevant doesn't make Vulkan less relevant for Windows 7, 8.1, 10, Linux, etc
smoky crater
DX12 is also not necessarily the correct path to choose. There is plenty of mileage in DX11
left fog
and like i said, Vulkan may not be the 'best open solution' in future (aka successor already in work)
deft carbon
Why would Vulkan not exist in the future?
smoky crater
i dont see vulkan going away but i dont really see it being adopted widely either
khr have simply waited too long
also it is too low level, it competes against dx12 sure, but not dx11
TBH the only similarity between DX11 and 12 is the name. otherwise the api is completely different
deft carbon
Vulkan and DX12 are specifically designed to work like the GPUs do, to be efficient if need be, but wrappers can be developed over them for ease of use. I'd assume Bohemia would want to fully optimize it though. As for adoption, Vulkan is already more adopted than DX12.
left fog
after merge with OpenCL there more likely be merge with OpenXR and it may end with different name than Vulkan
smoky crater
@deft carbon its my belief that Vulkan should standardise a higher level layer rather than just leave it up to people to write one
currently plenty of engine devs will stick to DX11 because they dont need the extra featureset DX12 (or vulkan) would give them
wispy breach
sony announced vulkan for ps4 got a lnk?
smoky crater
however also, currently only Linux benefits from using Vulkan at all
deft carbon
Knowing how open source projects go, there will probably be 1-2 worthwhile high level layers to choose from and a dozen minor ones. Khronos doesn't need to choose one abstraction layer to promote, devs will flock to the best supported one and then it will get further improved.
wispy breach
with ue4 andriod has had vulkan before Linux
smoky crater
you end up with crap like... alsa, oss... pulse.. jack...
lots of api's, none of them really any good
left fog
well let's not turn into war of which api is best, unrelated to this channel
deft carbon
what matters is that Bohemia chooses something that runs on Linux so that we can get a ported game π
left fog
that applies only if you think it needs to run same renderer for each platform ...
deft carbon
Wouldn't that be most efficient?
short tulip
Well, if you want it to run on both XB1 and Linux, you'll have to use both DirectX12/13 and Vulkan.
deft carbon
So, at most two APIs are necessary
left fog
or just DX12 with transcoder for Vulkan (several already exist/wip) hence like i said , no point to try what if
deft carbon
But what about Windows 7 and 8.1 users?
wispy breach
Oh they will have to use Linux
deft carbon
It really should be the other way around I think, Vulkan would work in most places, then wrapper for DX12 on Xbox
smoky crater
renderer is only one piece of the puzzle anyway
deft carbon
Yeah but it's a big piece
smoky crater
ultimately cost is the big piece.. licensing middleware
deft carbon
Is there a list of middleware that Arma 3 uses?
hexed osprey
Uh, what happend here?
About the TFAR for Linux, there is a issue for it:
https://github.com/michail-nikolaev/task-force-arma-3-radio/issues/1030
I was personally thinking about doing a port, but I dont want dig into API of closed source blob (mumble would be another story)
@left fog about the new Vulkan replacement, you mean that annoucent layer on top of vulkan, metal and d3d? That is not replacement
and OpenGL is NOT replacement of Vulkan
D3D12 and Vulkan are quite similar, D3D12 copied Mantle, Vulkan is successor of Mantle, shouldnt be problem add Vulkan next to D3D12
left fog
sonic no, i talk about the Khronos merges of several APIs and discussion of the steps beyond Vulkan
anyway as i said, discussing what if API a or b is pointless for the future and unrelated to Arma 3
hexed osprey
really? I only heard about their layer on top of other APIs... interesting, is somewhere more info?
wild magnet
I hear there's some kind of voting about π€
gray oracle
covert quiver
I think he means the vote of what the successor of Vulkan should be
scenic sleet
Using a reaction for the vote tally may have backfired, with all the new reactions that have been added it's no longer clear which one is the original
dry venture
Are mod tools based on enfusion engine ? So if there is port or native support the tools can easily be launched on other platforms?
shrewd sigil
@wild magnet Check pinned
tired aurora
@smoky crater Switch supports Vulkan
full talon
@smoky crater I really respect your work on the Linux ARMA3 port. I bought the game a few months back and got a serious nostalgia hit from the days of the original Operation Flashpoint. Thank you for the port!
hidden grail
the arrow up reaction at the comment is relevant, NOT the thumbs up !
scenic sleet
yeah, people adding their own reactions has messed up the count π¦
fervent hornet
Oh, I just clicked all of them, because I didn't know which one was the counter (okay, didn't think the "small" ones were, but hey...)
drifting pasture
i am happy as long as there is linux port/version
fervent hornet
Anyone tried running Arma through Wine+DXVK?
smoky crater
what for?
steep lotus
someone in the armaonunix discord said they have. Aparently it works, but since battle eye doesn't work in wine, multiplayer is not an option @fervent hornet
fervent hornet
@smoky crater playing fully patched Arma on Linux...? What do you mean, "what for"???
smoky crater
except you cant play the multiplayer because of battleye
fervent hornet
@steep lotus alright, that makes sense. I used to just play with a couple of friends on my own server, so that probably wouldn't be a problem.
Don't give much for public multiplayer
smoky crater
well the single player works just fine without being the latest version on the port
steep lotus
Ah, makes sense. I guess its usefull if you don't want to wait for the port to be finnished
fervent hornet
Yeah. I think I'll have a go at it soon, so I can play with my buddies again! π
I'm pretty sure BattleEye can be disabled in the server config, that is... Actually, I don't remember...
smoky crater
nice to know our hard work is appreciated sigh
hexed osprey
yeah you can disable BattlEye
there is a guy who is working on BE support for Wine...that reminds me that I forgot to send him new log
https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31910
smoky crater
he is doing so illegally then
covert quiver
@fervent hornet also your friends can downgrade by switching the branch in steam so you can play the Linux version
fervent hornet
@smoky crater it really is appreciated, as I would much rather use a native port. Is the port actually native?
smoky crater
im not even going to bother answering that one as it's an obvious troll
hexed osprey
I guess it is little bit more native than WIne
fervent hornet
What, no?
smoky crater
its as native as Feral ports are
fervent hornet
Alright, didn't know that.
hexed osprey
yes not much difference, all are using some kinds of layers
fervent hornet
Honest question. Sorry if I pushed some wrong buttons there...
smoky crater
the arma 3 port uses a win32 layer and d3d layer, and yes it runs a windows PE executable, but that executable is custom built for the port
covert quiver
@smoky crater not all people are toxic, they just don't know better. I thank you for doing the Port but you also can be toxic IMO....
fervent hornet
It was an honest question, and I'm sorry if you feel I poop on your work for using Wine. But don't throw any rocks, dude...
steep lotus
From a technical standpoint, wether the port is "native" or not is interesting but based on the performance we're getting it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Based on my understanding, I would argue that ferals ports are more native since they don't have a d3d layer. But again, it doesn't seem to make that big of a difference and both are impressive in their own way
smoky crater
they do
feral has a layer they called IndirectX
its a D3D->GL wrapper. they have vulkan support now too
smoky crater
"pure ELF" is irrelevant
x86 code does not magically become better just because of the file format
hexed osprey
yup, but its a format used by unix, native
hexed osprey
I mean, there is a difference to have layers on top whole exec file or just on top of some libraries
smoky crater
nope, its a dumb argument that only linux zealots seem to want to bring up
refactoring a codebase onto a different compiler can introduce all sorts of issues
and there is actually no reason to do so
x86 code is x86 code. an API call is a JMP/CALL instruction. it doesnt matter what compiler generated it.
it doesnt matter whether those calls are mapped by a PE loader or ld.so or dyld or whatever else
our translation layer is no more or less "native" than Ferals
hexed osprey
But it does matter how many layers you put between your code and library...anyway this is off topic, we have different opinions but I get most of your arguments...
smoky crater
there are no more layers innvolved whether we compile all together or load a PE file
left field
Hi there - how can I show interest in Linux support for Arma 3? I already purchased it but I'd like to add a "+1" to the list lol π
hexed osprey
check pinned msg
scenic sleet
the 'thumbtack/drawing pin' icon at the top right of the page
left field
Thanks buddy, appreciate that
quasi orchid
@left fog summer vacation time is not really the right time to ask this, not? %)
(arma) player numbers are traditionally higher in autumn and winter.. just saying
vernal gate
But there's far more children now. Children love Linux!
molten pulsar
so we had 2 wars already.. Windows vs Linux and graphics APIs... lol
dusk ermine
and linux vs mac and mac vs windows xD
molten pulsar
that also happened? Jeeeezzzz
deft carbon
@smoky crater "refactoring a codebase onto a different compiler can introduce all sorts of issues" And it can also help find bugs. Some of the best code I've seen is able to run on several compilers.
For example, the Godot engine is able to be compiled with GCC, Clang, MSVC, and MinGW.
spiral scarab
It would be great to have a more up to date version of Arma. It's one of my favourite games on Linux. In addition I would love to play Apex π
arctic lion
Hello guys, don't have much time for ARMA right now, but definitely I'll buy it as I can see a lot of interest from Linux users
hushed spruce
I've already bought it (as I own every single ArmA game and expansion going back to the original Operation Flashpoint / Resistance / Red Hammer, well technically I own multiple copies of a lot of the games too for ... reasons) but I'd certainly like more active Linux development too.
arctic lion
And about this C++ discussion, I can only say that the more you tight to the standar the less problems you'll get between compilers (but Microsoft compiler loves to remove some validations, so be aware)
pine lily
hello, I came here just to express my interest in Arma 3 Linux, and I bought it when they first announced the experimental linux port. It is running great so far, even on my potato PC
release it!!! π
gritty ether
I will buy when It will be with same Windows patch
hushed spruce
@pine lily It's already on Linux... (just behind patch wise)
sick ether
+1 for Linux support π§ 
arctic lion
@hushed spruce he's talking about putting the SteamOS logo at Steam Store
short tulip
You know, if everyone here were to go ahead and buy it without version parity and all get on Emp's server, we'd probably have a much more lively time than we usually do. With only the people who were brave enough to go for it before conditions are ideal, it's been about 8 or 9. I'd like to see that number go much higher.
arctic lion
@short tulip I promise you that I'll buy it. Unfortunately I cannot play a game like ARMA right now.
pearl garnet
My whole family uses Debian Linux exclusively and won't even consider a game that does not run there natively. Wine is for old games we have from before, not for new ones. So +4 for linux support I suppose π
hidden grail
@sick ether please vote in the pinned message, use the arrow up reaction to vote
arctic lion
Wish there was an easier and simple way to share games on Steam
hushed spruce
@hidden grail Took me like 12 attempts to get to that pinned message. Is Discord always like that?
hidden grail
dunno, probably too many messages here
arctic lion
Clicking on the upper right pin icon get me directly to the message
spiral scarab
@hushed spruce I've had to disable uBlock Origin first.
sick ether
nice, thank you. Voted ! 
@Aldo Raine#6969 please vote in the pinned message, use the arrow up reaction to vote
````emp64 - 03-08-2018 11:03 | #linux_mac_branch`I've already disabled it for Discord, so it wasn't that. It kinda went back a few hours, but not back to the actual message (or did nothing).
pearl garnet
I'm running ublock, noscript, and a vpn with filtering and mine is working fine. So I'm thinking it's not ublock.
sick ether
I already bought this game and I really want it to be officially supported
spiral scarab
ah okay, good to know π
atomic nacelle
Hi there, another long-time Linux and ARMA3 owner here showing my support for the "Experimental" port. Kudos to BI and VP for their continued work on this!
arctic oyster
@sick ether You use Fedora ?
hexed osprey
Aha, LiamD posted new article about it, thats why so many ppl are comming, nice π
sick ether
Yes buddy 
@Aldo Raine#6969 You use Fedora ?
````StidOfficial - 03-08-2018 11:15 | #linux_mac_branch`Just enought this WINDOWS vs LINUX battle. Games must be at all platform. We Linux users also love gaming, but you game developpers don't know nothing about Linux, your knowledge ends there where Windows not working. This is reason why we haven't many good games on linux. It's not marketshare. It's just your fault, because your knowledge in Linux is near 273,15 degrees on kelvins scale.
atomic nacelle
For me only 2 issues currently exist which hamper the experience:
- Delayed release parity makes it harder to join friends.
- The gamepad support does not have feature parity with the Windows version (limited XInput emulation?)
arctic oyster
@sick ether Welcome in the team π
candid anchor
Gamepad with arma?
elder wedge
I only bought this game because you already have a non-official port for linux, If you want to make official by all means, just do it.
crimson vector
a linux native version would be great to have
arctic oyster
A keyboard is recommended in Arma LOL
pearl garnet
@quasi orchid Bashing developers and telling them they don't know much about Linux is probably not the best way to get them to develop for Linux, Just saying. π
atomic nacelle
@candid anchor It may sound crazy but it's quite enjoyable on gamepad, also helps introduce the game to a wider audience.
pearl garnet
I personally like playing on game pads, I use a steam controller. But for FPS I tend to stick to mouse and keyboard.
atomic nacelle
@pearl garnet I also primarily use the Steam Controller but prefer gaming in the living room where keyboard/mouse aren't ideal.
hidden grail
Arma has milion of key bindings, I cant even imagine how you can play it with game pad, unless you just run around as in CS
quasi orchid
A proper linux native version would be welcome
arctic oyster
Yep
pearl garnet
@atomic nacelle I could see that, I do that with my playstation. Though I do have an HTPC and wouldn't mind hooking up some games on it too. Most of my PC gaming is done on my desktop though, and there's where I prefer to play FPS because gamepads and FPS never work out well for me.
atomic nacelle
@hidden grail True, though the full ARMA experience isn't required at all times. It's a great immersive tactical shooter which still provides genuine value with simplified controls, not everyone needs 101 crouch/prone positions. π
primal knot
linux port it would be great!
arctic oyster
Not for use /tmp buffer and memory leak
And windows doesn't work same linux. You can more accelerate way of function of native system with native version
atomic nacelle
@pearl garnet Neither is wrong though Linux gaming needs to provide a compelling living room experience to truly succeed moving forward.
@pearl garnet ... this is where Valve dropped-the-ball with Steam Machines. I appreciate all the work they're doing behind the scenes but it was a mistake to not provide a clearer/compelling launch product.
... giving PC manufacturers full reign over pricing was never going to work out well for consumers/marketing.
pearl belfry
official linux support is great idea, I'm linux gamer too
scenic sleet
Please remember to vote (see Pins)
sick ether
using up arrow to vote 
atomic nacelle
A typical gamer (i.e. the majority) is less likely to pay ~$1000 for device that plays ~40% of games than ~$500 for a console which plays ~90%. It's simple math, hopefully Valve has learned for Steam Machines 2.0 π
blazing trellis
I have not bought this game yet because the uncertainty of a Linux version but if it will be an official Linux version then i will definitely buy it
quasi orchid
Hey, just came by to give my 2 cents in. I'm interested by a port on Linux of Arma. Would that be using Wine still?
or is it to extend the Wine port?
scenic sleet
the port doesn't use Wine, it used eON
heavy lion
@quasi orchid It's not a Wine port, it's using EOn
astral radish
I'll definetily buy the port if it goes in pair with the windows version and is compatible with mods.
atomic nacelle
@quasi orchid VP are using their own tech, similar in concept to Wine, to create the Linux and Mac ports. I doubt a true native version will happen for ARMA3.
As much as I'd love to see more native games released I personally have no issue with wrapper-based ports (Eon, Wine, etc) if they provide a stable out-of-the-box 1080p@60 experience with mid-range hardware.
arctic oyster
Wine use native windows executable, eON use header post process for build native executable.
atomic nacelle
Have to shoot now, hope this conversation leads to something positive. Have a good weekend all.
shy swift
Hello jolly fellows. Registered and joined Dischord exclusively to give an :kupvote: and an :ubuntu: . Yay!
torpid snow
π I want this game officially released.
tall dragon
I'm interested in the official release for Linux!
noble thistle
Yes I want full Linux version π
winter tulip
@atomic nacelle about eON read few post higher
@atomic nacelle similat tech like in Feral ports
*similar
willow loom
Liunx gamer reporting in! I bought Arma3 back in early access days when I was still using windows. I'm very happy to see it's getting progress into penguin land. Would be awesome to see it get version parity as whenever I do catch it on the same version of windows it's just a huge treat to play on 100+ pop servers! Native version would be fantastic but I understand thats a huge request.
stable oak
Linux support is will be awesoneπ
winter tulip
@atomic nacelle So if u calling eON as similar to WINE, u should call Also Feral indirex also as similar to WINE
short tulip
I always look forward to improved Linux support. And for me, that just means version parity an official launcher to make modding easier.
molten pulsar
@winter tulip eON is definitely similar to wine but way more specialized
timid creek
shorten the latest release port to linux would improve my game time a lot (long port time is blocking my multiplayer progress in the game). Thx for supporting us π
winter tulip
@molten pulsar about eon and arma3 from ex vp developer: "its as native as Feral ports are"
plain fox
Just opened a discord account to show my support! #Linux rocks! I already have the beta, but I'd like to have it properly supported to play together with other platforms!
verbal palm
Let's do this Linux support!
austere radish
I already own Arma 3 but i would definitely be interested in a full linux build!
sly rover
@left fog Just so you know, Khronos will probably never merge OpenVR (which is a Valve api) but maybe OpenXR, the in-progress open standard for VR and related tech which is set to work with everything.
slender estuary
I am very interested in a full Linux port of Arma 3! Having crossplay with windows and mac would be awesome as well!
lament igloo
I have Arma 3 I play it exclusively on Linux but alone. My friends use it as a battlefield simulator, not a FPS And they are all on windows so i cannot join their "units" because the Linux and Windows versions are not synchro most of the time. But yeah, i am interested in the Linux port. I would not have bought it if it weren't for the Linux port as i do not have windows and i do not plan of acquiring that OS. π
And thanks for asking. π
quasi orchid
Hi, I love ARMA3 for Linux , I have 298 h on it. I have all DLCs.I like to play scenarios from the workshop. And online I play allways on emp64s server. ARMA3 is great. It is fantastic when the win and linux versions are the same. Oh boy then I love king of the hill.
still trench
We are currently playing on ArmaOnUnix server at 92.52.6.237 8ppl, veterran. Currently Combat Patrol. If you want to join. All are welcome. No mods. If we get more than 12 ppl we will play End Game
scenic sleet
@smoky crater @left fog The latest build seems a bit unstable in MP, a group of us are playing Combat Patrol and I think we've all crashed multiple times in the space of 30 minutes
quasi orchid
I have played Arma 3 on Linux 1171 hours in Linux. And my Fireds too. I have a Linux Server and i love you for your support!!!!!! We love you!
hidden grail
or even crashes every 15 minutes
heavy lion
@scenic sleet are you sure it's not the fault of the game mode?
hidden grail
well this wasnt happeing in the older version of arma
still trench
We were crashing constatnly on BICombat patrol, I may init server restart but i doubt it will wokr
scenic sleet
1.7x was really stable for me, but 1.80 crashed a lot, especially on Tanoa
1.82 seems a bit better in SP but very crashy in MP
@heavy lion Combat Patrol is an official game mode
no mods
of all the crashes, maybe 4 were while playing Combat Patrol, one while playing Dynamic Combat Ops (unofficial mod) and one just while starting the game (to rejoin after another crash)
molten pulsar
@winter tulip fair enough
lament igloo
Now that i think of it, even if i consider that port to need to be compatible with the win version to be really usable, i appreciate the way Bohemia Software honestly presented things. No sugar coating, warning us of a probable performance hit.
steep lotus
I haven't had any crashes in 1.82 apart from these in combat ops. In 1.80 I had lots of crashes, especially on tanoa and both in sp and mp. In previous versions I think I had less as well
karmic ravine
YO YO!
i bought arma 3 when it starts beta for linux
i like playing arma3
thnx to devs who brought arma 3 in my loved OS.
and i like to get par with windows client of arma 3 as soon as posible. so i can keep playing with my friends.
left fog
@sly rover ofc OpenXR ... mismatched letter π
carmine jungle
I haven't personally bought it but I keep a close eye on its development. When its well supported and doesn't chug along behind updates so much than maybe I'll reconsider.
wispy breach
I have arma3 and would like Linux to have support. Thank you.π
pliant bramble
I use Linux exclusively, and I would love to get into Arma!
terse lodge
^ My friend, who I wish I could play Arma with, but can't for this reason :(
dusk ermine
u can use previous version on windows ^
terse lodge
Yeah, but I honestly don't see the point unless we can join populated servers.
dusk ermine
yep only for coop missions mostly
smoky crater
One thing about crashes guys, that I have noticed Linux people dont seem keen to do - report crashes through our Crash Reporter tool by submitting. If you then post about these crashes on BI's forums, make sure to give the Crash Report reference you will get. Dont just save the info from the crash reporter and post it - that doesnt give us the Minidump that helps us figure out exactly where it crashed
quasi orchid
I joined just to add to the number of people who really want Linux well supported. The only reason I keep going back to windows is because of lack of Linux support for Squad, and similar games.
lethal furnace
i joined as well to add support for linux
i wonder how many people they were hoping to get in here that would help move the needle towards official linux support
misty oriole
I joined to show interest in the Linux port being closer to the windows version - thank for for the work you've already done so far. Linux version will also allow you the opportunity for steam machines,mac,Linux. If you had one branch it would be much easier to maintain.
sly rover
@smoky crater How important is posting on the forums about crashes?
The crashes I experienced the most only happened in servers I can't access right now.
But I'll keep your answer in mind.
quasi orchid
having the linux/mac versions to be on par all the time will be cool, i support it.
shell kayak
I've too joined to show interest in a Linux/Mac port, bought the game the moment I heard there was unofficial support hoping to show that there is interest for Linux. Now just need to get the time to put into the game.
karmic ravine
morning...
i guess its better develop Arma 3 with Vulkan Api so less work for 3 or more platforms are awesomeness.
yet all is on developers will
quasi orchid
i can confirm that 1.70 was very stable
1.80 and 182 become more unstable
but mods work better
scenic sleet
@smoky crater I reported the crashes, with 1.80 I must have reported them a few hundred times
If you aren't receiving large volumes of crash reports then something is broken with the report tool
covert quiver
i also had already more than 30 crashes reportet on 1.82
is it only me or does arma takes also more than 10 gigabytes of ram easily
quasi orchid
covert quiver
btw for all newcomers, we have a small Arma On Unix community with a own discord server and own game server where most linux/mac people are https://armaonunix.gitlab.io/servers.html
naive forum
Was a Windows user and Win-Arma 3 player until 5 months ago, when I switched my main pc to Xubuntu and didnt look back. I for sure am glad Arma 3 is available on linux and its the only game in it's kind for this platform!
I do cheat a tiny bit though, I have kept 1 windows machine without any screen or keyboard and installed it as a Steam-Stream Machine to still stream my steam games to my steam link and now also to my linux steam client.
But Arma 3 is installed locally on Xubuntu!
and works like a charm for me
slender estuary
Yo dawg! We gonna put Linux on yo Linux! π
But seriously though, please fully support this awesome game on Linux!
quasi orchid
yes please, support fully the linux port. i love the exile mod, but it doesnβt let me join my favorite server
Linux Please π
lost dirge
Another person here interested in a more up-to-date Linux port! π§
brisk token
Definetely worth @left fog
Even more if we get a native port... wishful thinking for A4... ah vulkan...
hidden grail
guys, vote using the arrow up reaction on the last pinned message
scenic sleet
first in the pinned list accessed from the pin icon at the top right of the screen
livid storm
yes yes 1 more for linux π
i bough in this summer sales because i dont know that is ported to linux bacause im a steam addict and dont see any comment jeje
quasi orchid
I bought Arma 3 two months ago to show my support even though it might not ever be oficially released. I don't play often because it's outdated so it makes it hard to find someone to play with but the performance has been solid for me (1050 Ti, Arch Linux) and very stable. If you manage to keep it updated then I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be released. The Linux community will be very thankful and as far as I know we do not have anything similar so it might become the number one sandbox military-focused FPS on Linux. Virtual Programming did a great job. So here is my vote for an official up-to-date Linux version... a je hezkΓ© vidΔt ΔeskΓ© vΓ½vojΓ‘Εe podporujΓcΓ Linux π
placid rock
+1 for linux
π
hollow laurel
i alredy have arma 3 on linux, but i use an amd r9 380 gpu and i have withe pop in glitches...
white*
+1 for linux
rich loom
At home, I use Linux for all my important tasks. I use it for work, development, managing information and just getting things done. I find Windows to be very unstable, and it changes all the time. It's very hard to keep a Windows system working well over time. Therefore I like doing everything on Linux, and that includes gaming and simming.
Unfortunately few sims run well on Linux, but Arma 3 does. It is wonderful to be able to play with!
π
deep oak
I already used arma 3 on linux, but since I cannot play on my favourite servers for a while when there is a patch, I have not played it in a while, also because of the performance that are not really great, if the time between version parity shortens, I'll definetly install it again, and if performances get a boost I'll also consider buying the new expansions (I have everything up to apex). This is a game I really like, especially because of the simulation mechanics but the downtime between win-linux patches togher with the rough performances really hurted my experience, but I have no doubts the devs will continue improve this wonderful game. Keep up the good work!
still trench
I suspect recent crashes to be coused by VON. Seems to crash a lot more when there is alot of ppl talking over it. Also my arma stuters from time to time when i activete it for a half a sec. Not very usefull or technical report but i might convince my community to play in silence just to count the crash amount difference. Maybe will give a starting point to look for
gusty holly
+1 for official Linux support.π
deep steppe
I would be extremely interested in a official Linux port
rain flint
is it the "experimental" that bothers you?
wether its called experimental or official wont effect its performance
gusty holly
No, but official game support means it will be more readily supported and there will be more active development which can only be a good thing long-term.
bleak jackal
official linux support +1
lament igloo
I have looked up the thread a bit and it is interesting to get the input of the developers. I am not one so i cannot appreciate really all their arguments but switching to Vulkan seem to have worked out well for Croteam and Feral. Of course, Croteam has ported it's games to Linux for quite a while and Feral are actually in the business of doing Linux ports. π
arctic oyster
If BI go out a official version, i recommend a native version without eON solution. It's better for the future.
scenic sleet
that's unlikely to happen at this point in the game's life
they only have a skeleton team skill working on Arma 3, maybe for Arma 4
though as people have pointed out, what really is the difference? Other that the added complexity of a wrapper, the end result is the same. Ideologically I'd of course prefer a no-wrapper solution but logically it doesn't matter.
Jaycee makes a good point that VP unfairly get a bad rep when Feral are doing the exact same thing
arctic oyster
Yes, but it's good to build a native game for show all capabilities and performance of Unix in gaming.
quasi orchid
Will dev branch Arma connect to Linux server or do I need stable version?
gritty sage
dev branch is a different version. It cannot connect to stable servers
molten pulsar
you should probably be in #server_linux but there is no dev-branch linux server
quasi orchid
@molten pulsar Oh, sorry:(
molten pulsar
no worries, just informing π
whole knoll
Oh yes, Linux please!
shrewd ridge
I like the Linux version, only sad part is that I can't play with my brother who is on Windows.
sage tendon
If it's just you and your brother who want to play together, he can downgrade his version
scenic sleet
Remember to vote for the linux port by click the up arrow icon below the pinned post (See thumb tack/drawing pin icon at the top right of the screen)
every vote counts and yet I don't think everyone who has joined this channel to express their support has actually voted
smoky crater
can you only "vote" once though.. id be suspicious of ballot stuffing behaviour im afraid
quasi orchid
For what i can see here linux users have the potential for full an 100 players server so forget your windows friends and come to Emp's server to join and find new friends and fun!!!! π
lament igloo
It is possible to ballot stuff !?
@quasi orchid Some of my friends are simmers, they play with military procedures. And they play on win. That is why i would love a version parity. π
covert quiver
@lament igloo if your milsim clan is using TFAR/ACRE then we need to make the mods also linux supported since they use windows apis
quasi orchid
@quasi orchid is it public?
lament igloo
@covert quiver As far as i know they do not. They often use the CBA mod though. But not always.
quasi orchid
Steam is now downloading Arma3 π
covert quiver
dedale CBA is just a framework and no normal mod that adds something
gritty sage
Someone already worked on a TFAR linux/mac port. But didn't share that stuff with me yet as it wasn't fully working
lament igloo
@covert quiver Indeed, i stand corrected. They do not always use mods though they often use ASR AI 3 (And CBA to use this mod)
covert quiver
oh yea that should work without problems on linux
if its just your friends, they can always downgrade to play with you
rain flint
did you know the Germanic word for steel is used in non-Germanic languages as well?
great now get the off-topic treatment...
covert quiver
Stahl?
rain flint
"Stalin" i was like, that doesnt even sound Russian, but then in my language polish its "stal" as well..'
covert quiver
what does Stahl have to do with Joseph Stalin?
covert quiver
didn't know that. TIL
rain flint
π
german company names lmao
stahl gesellschaft mit braun. no thats not it
embarrassing its gmbh not gmbr π³
covert quiver
Gesellschaft mit beschrΓ€nkter Haftung π
rain flint
beschrΓ€nkter
woven jay
Here I am, another proud Linux user of the great ARma3 Linux port. I'm a big fan of the Saga, and I played the first Operation Flashpoint "some" years ago. Please give this great game an official and punctual support
covert quiver
vote up by pressing the arrow up reaction on the pinned messsage
quasi orchid
@covert quiver Any chance you guys can increase the player count on EMP's server?
covert quiver
i think they are playing dynamic recon ops which only has 8 players max, you can head over to our discord (also listed on the page) and wait for one spot to get free
or asking them to play another mission later
quasi orchid
Oh, cool. Thanks!
quasi orchid
deep oak
@scenic sleet what do you mean? Feral is wrapping the games?
scenic sleet
@deep oak Feral's ports use a translation layer just like VP and Wine. They are all different but none are truly native
steep lotus
@woven jay It should be the first pinned message
deep oak
@scenic sleet are you sure? where can I read about it?
scenic sleet
@smoky crater sometimes I wonder just who's side you are really on.
@deep oak gamingonlinux.com for one
deep oak
@scenic sleet I know the site but I can't remember them talking about feral games as non-native
scenic sleet
Or just ask Feral directly, not as though they have ever denied it, they just don't advertise it either
quasi orchid
hopefully that vote has a weight on it
smoky crater
"side" ? I am on noones side
deep oak
@scenic sleet I've sent them an e-mail, I'm really curious, their layer seems to me quite better than the vp's one or wine (although wine tries to support all games while feral has just a few)
smoky crater
i wont blindly advocate Linux if thats what you mean. if there are things I take issue with I will say so.
remote widget
Treebeard , you asshole
wispy breach
^settle down
remote widget
Why?
smoky crater
another abusive member of the Linux community is hardly any news to me π
wispy breach
I don't know maybe he derves it? lol
remote widget
Who is abusing you right now?
smoky crater
well, you just called me an asshole.. soo π
remote widget
Lol , that was a Treebeard reference from Lotr dammit
deep oak
@smoky crater well, any community ever has some abusive/toxic memeber, unless it's composed by 2-3 people, but in that case it's hardly a community
scenic sleet
@smoky crater in a vote that might well secure us linux users a better supported port and the very company you work for a guarantee of future business, your suggesting that the ballot may be stuffed
wispy breach
@remote widget lol over my head bro
remote widget
Side? I'm on nobodys side because no one is on my side - Treebeard circa 437
scenic sleet
It feels very much like you want this to fail
smoky crater
@scenic sleet its a fair statement though
and you DO realise i get paid for working on the Arma 3 port right ? If I wanted it to fail, that means I dont want to get any money for my work π
scenic sleet
Maybe, Dwarden and BI can figure that for themselves, we don't need to go putting the idea in their minds
deep oak
@smoky crater so your employer is BI?
remote widget
Guys , problem with Jaycee is he is still dealing on Witcher 2 abuse
scenic sleet
The very fact that you're getting paid is why I'm surprised :)
remote widget
So he is just turned like a passive agressive guy lik Rust dev
smoky crater
@deep oak no.. VP
remote widget
I don't blame him. Just ignore some negativity from him
smoky crater
well.. i contract for them now. no longer full time
deep oak
ok, well, keep up the good work!
remote widget
Lol. Jaycee , did you ever come up with a workaround about Mesa problems on Arma3?
smoky crater
i posted about this on GOL recently actually
wispy breach
@smoky crater you are the porter from boiling steam interview?
remote widget
Yes , he is
smoky crater
the mesa devs have decided they arent going to fix the issue as there is a .drirc option that works around it. unfortunately it impacts performance
remote widget
Hmm , that Mesa attitude is just killing AMD users
smoky crater
our graphics guy still believes Mesa's behaviour is wrong as it doesnt do what all the other GL implementations we've worked with do.. so..
wispy breach
@smoky crater better to have a game release hardware is only getting more powerfull. We do want mod support.
smoky crater
mods do work with our port.. unless the mods use a DLL extension
wispy breach
k thank
remote widget
So probably 90 percent of mods use Dll right?
remote widget
Wow , that is good. Since game has Win users mostly i thought that would be the situation
smoky crater
theres one popuilar one that uses a DLL to communicate with the Teamspeak client
smoky crater
TFAR is the one im thinking of i tihink
gritty sage
That's me then ^^
Correct answer
There is already someone that worked on linux compatability for it for some time. But never gave me the changes needed. And gave up after the linux started to lag behind again
But TFAR working on Linux is nothing VP can do anything about
That's all on me
gritty sage
All the Arma side does is read/write into shared memory
And that takes maybe a couple hours to port to Linux equivalent. The Teamspeak plugin is more work
remote widget
Nah , not a problem. I can handle things with Discord
covert quiver
tfar is really a different experience for arma inversion
smoky crater
pity the other guy never gave yo uthe changes, i suspect the Arma side of the plugin doesnt need to change much ever between versions
gritty sage
yeah. I made lots of stuff more modular with TFAR 1.0
We just need to replace the module that communicates with the TS plugin. And shared memory is easy enough to implement
He probably has the changes laying around. Once Linux get's more on par with the windows version the priority for linux TFAR will go up
smoky crater
good to know that he did have it working though. feedback on library plugins is not something we've had a lot of
actually.. i dont think we've had any
gritty sage
I guess the ultimate test would be to check if Intercept works on the linux port π
wispy breach
That's above my pay grade do you game porters need a intern here's β π©
scenic sleet
if we have feature requests for the linux port, where should we send them? I'm guessing BI since VP are contractors not publishers, so they only work on what they are actually asked to do?
smoky crater
correct
scenic sleet
Well I've lobbied Dwarden to death on TrackIR support in the linux port, I guess I need to find an alternate route into BI's decision making process π
smoky crater
main thing with trackir would be that we would need the hardware at VP too
and i think its kinda expensive
either that or we need more details about the API on both windows and linux/mac
scenic sleet
Β£160 more or less, depending on the model it can be cheaper, if that was the blocker I'd actually send you guys the hardware. The hardware is supported by the open source projects like OpenTrack and others, so even without access to developer documentation from TrackIR themselves (something BI would have to share), it wouldn't be difficult to work back from those implementations. The main sticking point is simply that TrackIR support appears to be disabled in the port, so even though that middleware exists, the configuration options etc are missing in the game.
smoky crater
ahh so it's not official trackir support?
lament igloo
Nope
scenic sleet
well official support might be nice, but that involves writing drivers etc and maybe that's too much to expect, at the end of the day it appears on linux as a form of joystick/controller and might be best implemented as one
smoky crater
regarding BI disclosing TrackIR documentation that might not legally be possible
lament igloo
I think it was on the Xplane 11 forums, a developer of a free driver for trackIR was bumping into licensing subtleties
scenic sleet
well, can't speak for TrackIR, but in my own experience, licenses generally allow for documentation to be shared with contractors. That's actually an advantage of the way VP works. Feral for example would no doubt have to license it separately.
smoky crater
gamepad support could definitely be improved, currently we only do the XInput layer because thats mostly what SDL's input system focussed on. It'd be a lot more work for us to map udev -> directinput more directly
scenic sleet
However, the TrackIR license may specify the platforms that are covered by the license, and that COULD be an issue if it's limited to windows
lament igloo
I am not very knowledgeable about head tracking solution but i seem to recall there were less performing solution with free tracking sfotware for webcams.
Less efficient for a dogfighter on IL2 or falcon BMs but maybe it matters less for an Arma 3 player. I do not know well.
scenic sleet
@lament igloo There are other solutions, sure, many of which work with Arma, using middleware like OpenTrack to mimic a TrackIR device
at least they work on Windows. Nothing works with Arma on Linux at the moment
scenic sleet
Arma doesn't allow you to map any device capable of inputting multiple analog axis information to head movement, sadly, they only allow TrackIR or something pretending to be TrackIR
lament igloo
Ok, i get it. and of course VP cannot do anything about that, eh !
smoky crater
we could certainly make everything udev reports for a device appear as an eqiuivalent directinput device to the game.. but youd still be limited by the game's dinput handling
scenic sleet
actually I take that back, to some extent you can bind analog inputs to Look Left/Look Right/Look Up, but not the fully range of movement that TrackIR and others support
smoky crater
currently we only implement xinput which is very basic.. equivalent to an xbox 360 controllers capabilities
scenic sleet
honestly you're lucky to get that much from xinput, back when I did some work inplementing 'media key' support for a project I worked with a friend at RedHat to extend the linux key map and drivers to actually pass through these to X11 ... it was my job when that was finished (and with all the drivers it took a year) to actually then implement the handling within user space applications. Needless to say we were all very dismayed to realise that X11 only allocates 8 bits for keycodes, a limitation we hadn't even thought to check for, everything above 255, which was by and large what we had mapped was just ignored. While many extensions have extended X11 over the years, it's still essentially the same protocol that was developed in 1991 and extremely limited by that. We ultimately abandoned the project, those drivers and the extended kernel support for keys was merged, but the userspace remains oblivious of them.
scenic sleet
well that's not confusing at all π
smoky crater
ive often wondered if we'd be better hitting udev for mouse input as well and ignoring Xevents
well.. at the moment we use SDL, but yeah..
scenic sleet
well I went back into the bindings settings, I don't know if it changed since the last time I looked or I just missed it before, but it seems possible to map most/all of the 6DOF that TrackIR provides manually, I'm going to have to see if the game will recognise if I have middleware translate the TrackIR input into a virtual 'joystick' device.
hmm, analog bindings aren't recognising joystick input, not a promising start
lament igloo
I do not know if it is it of any use but look those guys struggling with unofficial trackIR support in XPlane 11 in 2017!
scenic sleet
yeah, I have linuxtrack working fine, which seems to have been the sticking point for those guys
smoky crater
@scenic sleet you will probably need to make a mapping in SDLGamepad.config
scenic sleet
problem at this point is getting Arma to actually recognise the input
@smoky crater thanks, will take a look at that
quasi orchid
Speaking of... what do you guys do now that Gnome 3 doesn't have a side tray? I can never tell if Steam is still running.
long sphinx
You gotta install an extension to make it work
KDE also had that issue two years ago or so
Just search for system tray
Or whatwver
Lol
quasi orchid
Ahh... ok. What's the rational for getting rid of it though?
quasi orchid
Ahh... the logic is someone felt like it was a good idea π
long sphinx
Nah
Theyβre dumb and donβt accept it lol
I used to enjoy gnome 3 at the beginning
But every GTK new version killed the themes compatibility
quasi orchid
Yeah, me too! It was a lot better than Unity in any case π
long sphinx
So, Iβve got so pissed off that Iβve quit it
quasi orchid
I'm coming back from a half-year stint with Arch and i3wm... so I guess I missed a lot of the changes. I'll try and stick it out though. It's nice having a semi-stable system
long sphinx
The extension name seems to be topicons
Are you running Ubuntu?
Iβve migrated to opensuse
quasi orchid
No. Running Fedora here... but I run Ubuntu 18 on my work machine... and I'm facing the same issues.
long sphinx
My nvidia Optimus laptop is finally working properly with bumblebee
quasi orchid
Hmm... never tried Suse. Are you using KDE then?
long sphinx
Yeah
Suse is okay
Works well
Itβs a bit odd MOST of the time lol
I miss fedora a bit
quasi orchid
Nice. Will probably try it out the next time I need a reason to procrastinate and wipe my machine. π
Fedora's really hard to beat for stability and simplicity. I keep coming back to it.
lament igloo
Happy with Xubuntu here.
smoky crater
cant really stand kde. if i want useless bling bling i'll go use my mac π
@long sphinx Unfortunately X11 is not "dead" and wont be dead for a while yet
and until the wayland devs stop having a penis measuring competition with nvidia (no i dont care whose right) then it wont be a suitable replacement for gaming
deft carbon
X11 is the default for most things, not available for most distros and DEs (pretty much only Gnome uses Wayland), and there's a compability layer for Wayland (XWayland) for those using Wayland already.
smoky crater
xwayland doesnt emulate xrandr though, so you dont get "screen modes"
for example if you run arma3 on xwayland, you only get one screen mode - the desktop resolution
deft carbon
Yes, and it doesn't work too well for applications that interact closely with the display server (like Synergy) but windowed mode should be fine for games. Borderless fullscreen window > true fullscreen.
smoky crater
xrandr in itself doesnt work that well, but hey ho...
for example on one of my systems, i get lots of 4:3/5:4 type modes, but very few 16:9/16:10 modes
timid bridge
Hi. Im a linux gamer. I ranked up about 100 hours on the Linux version of Arma 3. I really appreaciat the effort you are putting into this branch. Great stuff!
rain flint
uhm. used to go xfce but its too boring looking, doesnt inspire me. kde has the right idea, but is too buggy.
gnome has a great code base, as its stable as f, but its untweakable. finding settings is impossible.
finally have gone with cinnamon as its ok looking and sits on gnome code
quartz dew
I'm using i3wm and I'm pretty happy with it. I ditched all other window managers.
lament igloo
XFCE is extremely tweakable though. Look at the voyager distro for an example. Personally i did not bother to fine tune it too much and i mostly stick with the xubuntu defaults.
smoky crater
is there a good distro or other way to install i3wm for testing?
preferably not arch..
warm dune
It should be available in Ubuntu's repositories
scenic pendant
@smoky crater where do I go to most efficiently report a problem with the linux build?
Problem is it's a bit of a broken phone situation too. I've complained about ACE3 not working on Linux to a friend, and he seems to have narrowed it down to productVersion in the new linux build returning Windows.
And he's way too socially awkward to even form a proper bug report
smoky crater
the best place to report is to BI, im not sure exactly where...
scenic pendant
I guess it's a simple enough problem to explain tho π
smoky crater
VP is just a contractor so reports have to come through BI
i take it this is some scripting API or so reporting Windows?
scenic pendant
I'm really uncomfortable placing a bugreport that doesn't actually come from me, hmm.
I guess I'll have to anyway.
smoky crater
id imagine its fine as long as you give the full technical details
scenic pendant
He's saying that's a piece of the base game APIs, yeah.
To give technical details, I'll have to personally reproduce and properly debug the issue.
Well shite.
smoky crater
i'll have a quick search through the source now..
scenic pendant
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to force you to, just complaining aloud about doing something I do for a living anyway π
Just, you know. Sometimes you want to play a game and not debug the new build >_>
smoky crater
mod stuff is always difficult for us though.. so many of them, we cant possibly test them all and find all the little issues
scenic pendant
Oh of course. Bugs happen.
Seems like someone broke OS detection, I'm just looking for a way to demonstrate that clearly.
It may have been productive to talk to the ACE3 guys to form a proper bug report, but their reaction to linux problems is basically βpfftβ.
smoky crater
nothing we can do about that attitude im afraid
scenic pendant
Yeah :<
smoky crater
ahh.. yes that is a bug actually π seems there was a source file where our ENABLE_EON_CHANGES define wasnt picked up
so yeah productVersion wouldve always returned Windows. oops.
i better push that out
As for callExtension I will try and find out more about that, I see there is existing Linux code for that (presumably for the dedicated server), we can see about getting that extended to support the port
hopefully in a binary compatible way - though i will have to make that handle OS X as well
i must stress i cant promise this.. it will be up to my boss and BI
lament igloo
@smoky crater Some of us could. By being a little bit more friendly...
scenic pendant
@smoky crater lol I've already submitted the bug to BI. Oops.
Finding that tracker wasn't the easiest job btw
It's googlable, but not mentioned officially.
Or I'm just blind, dunno
The bug here is with productVersion, yeah. It it returns the proper version, the mod just disables the pieces that want the dlls
And works
They are also already working on providing linux .so's as well
Also, just to be clear (it's Sunday, I'm not demanding anyone do any work today :D). I'm new to the community and have no idea what's your release/bugfix schedule is.
A small bug like this will probably hit the next bugfix release in a relatively short ammount of time, right?
Assuming it's not hard to fix
The smallest bugs gave me the worst debugging experiences, I swear.
warm dune
Would still go through QA with the rest of the upcoming fixes
scenic pendant
Well. By relatively short ammount I mean weeks
I'm well aware how frustratingly slow big companies are
smoky crater
well productVersion being broken, i think I can get that pushed out quite quick
extension support - not sure if/when that will happen
scenic pendant
Cool. I'll get used to the base game in the meantime I guess π
hexed osprey
yeah I love that jungle
long sphinx
@smoky crater yeah, it won't be dead so early, but we won't be using it forever though
that's what really makes me feel happy
btw, @smoky crater opensuse is quite great for daily use
Unless you really need ubuntu for some kind of software
steep hawk
+1 For Linux. I use OpenSuSE myself but I've honestly not run into any issues with Steam games cause of running anything other than Ubuntu.
@left fog If you require any more information or some such, let me know. Been eyeing Arma 3 for a while now with some mighty stiff nipples, friend. Keep up the good work! π Would love to see it come Tux's way.
hidden grail
Arma 3 is already available for linux
just the version isn't on par with the windows version
steep hawk
Gotcha. I'll have to give it a whirl π this entire time I thought it wasn't out for Linux yet.
scenic sleet
they released it as an 'experimental port' around 2 years back
steep hawk
No kidding? Interesting/.
scenic sleet
doesn't get shown as available for linux on Steam, but if you own it you can download and install
quasi orchid
Please make this Linux Port official ! And let the people know that theres a Linux Build out There.
steep lotus
So nice to see so many people here, don't forget to react to the pinned message as well :)
green iron
Please come to Arma Linux
swift pulsar
hey guys, I'm trying to crossplay with someone on windows
they also have 1.82 via the legacy branch
but we can't see eachother's servers
steep lotus
The server browser on the ports is broken at the moment so you might have to use direct connect @swift pulsar
quasi orchid
hey guys, as i'm already playing arma on linux only....hell yeah i'm interested in keeping updated with the windows version, to play with more mates
quasi orchid
@left fog I'm definitely interested in keeping the Linux version updated with the windows client. Please keep supporting Linux, pretty please :-)
I also left you guys a positive review:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/linuxgamer1920/recommended/107410/
quasi orchid
I am very interested in this game being official on linux! Reason being, it blow away other 'similar' titles
remote cosmos
heeey! +1 for linux. i'm already playing arma on linux only....hell yeah i'm interested in keeping updated with the windows version, to play with more mates
scenic sleet
deja-vu
remote cosmos
yea xD but its true
left fog
lil Linux / Mac ports update rolled out, it fixes some of the server listing issues but not the main one , yet
warm dune
Sweet
scenic sleet
seems to take a while to be distributed across the mirrors, and I assume Steam also do try to stagger downloads
Still waiting here
short tulip
It's really not fair. I can't even launch it for the time being. @scenic sleet ought to be the one to see it first.
scenic sleet
I'm supposed to be working, so ...
short tulip
Oh. π€£
scenic sleet
ok, 16.2 MB update downloading
still trench
@left fog what exactly was changed? As internet server browsing doesn't work, i can't say there was any other listing problems at all
steep hawk
Thank you for the update π
smoky crater
there was battleye compatibility issues
heh i think i just found the server browser bug. ironically it's curl's fault π
warm dune
gg
still trench
@smoky crater can we open shampane bottle already? π
covert quiver
thanks @smoky crater for beeing so open nowadays about the port
smoky crater
hm found one bug, but havent fixed it yet
covert quiver
still, a lot more information than we got until now...
smoky crater
honestly, it depends on whether i get told off for it or not..
wispy breach
I guess asking for arm3 tools is too much? For modding
smoky crater
if theyre windows ui driven, yeah...
rigid prism
@left fog
Upps, @left fog Thanks that you care for the Linux Community! I would be happy to see Arma 3 with full linux support π Seems to be a great game!
novel ibex
Anyone ever tried Arma 3 (windows binary) with wine-staging and DXVK?
Oh I see, thanks for the heads up!
Gonna update it to 1.84 then lol
smoky crater
just so you know, if you play through wine you are NOT supporting the port whatsoever
short tulip
Nor the sound... on Wine
scenic pendant
Kek.
gritty sage
@wispy breach there is armake that runs on linux. The binarizer for models is not complete yet though
scenic pendant
I know a guy who does modding on linux exclusively
But he probably doesn't really use any special tools
Modding for arma 3 I mean
gritty sage
well you need special tools to make the special Arma fileformats
unless you are writing everything manually with a hex editor
scenic pendant
Ah. I've already asked him about it π
left fog
ye WINE is sadly way too lagging behind what it was expected to be (decade ago i heard how it will be gamechanger etc.)
short tulip
And yet there's this growing belief among a new generation of Linux gamers that Wine is the end-all and be-all of Linux gaming. People try putting Linux on their computers, go through guides on how to get their Windows games working on Wine, have a bad experience with it, and complain that LINUX isn't ready for gaming. Absolutely disgusting.
scenic pendant
That has been going on forever
I remember jokingly posting things like βThis is what linux gaming looks likeβ with like hundreds of lines of code that automates a specific WINE build for a specific game (Borderlands)... and people complaining to me that it's ALL like that.
Or we had this meme: βLinux gaming is a brainfuck puzzle no matter which game you wanted to playβ... yet people outside of our clique kept taking it as a statement of truth >_>
And hey, it's still a decent joke
hexed osprey
@left fog it made huge progress in last few years, like Linux graphics stack...and with Wine I can play even games which are unplayable on Win10
scenic pendant
But yes, WINE has legitimately had a productivity sprint
It's been years of slow non-work on DX10+, then suddenly ALL THE WORK IS BEING DONE
hexed osprey
and most of Wine issues these days are because some developers do not follow standard of win api
ant that is why these games have compatibility issues with older games
*older systems
scenic pendant
Most issues with games that I wanna play are DX12 and middleware
Gaming middleware is just shite software
It's 99% horrible shitty mangled insane code
No wonder making it work on linux is a PITA
The DX12 problem is being solved right now
Anti-cheats are a completely insane invasive species, for example
I don't want them to work on Linux, because I don't want that shite on my PC
hexed osprey
"hundreds of lines of code that automates a specific WINE build for a specific game (Borderlands)" - sadly this is similar to A3 status
anti-cheats and DRM protection
short tulip
I just hope that Wine doesn't start supporting Denuvo. I do NOT want that junk running on my computer, and I consider it to be a PLUS for Linux that it can't run Denuvo.
scenic pendant
Won't ever work on WINE cuz it wants a low-level fs driver AFAIK
Just as StarForce wanted a special CD-ROM driver
hexed osprey
Vietcong (15 years old game) for example is still not working under WINE properly, because developers wrote shitty code and it is buggy even on newer Windows
scenic pendant
Remember StarForce btw? That shite worked βwellβ even on Windows FFS.
It literally blew CDs up
left fog
why you trying bag DRM and anti-cheats ... the first is pure waste of money and resources w/o anything useful or effective
the other, if done right, does it's job just fine and no it's not invasion to your privacy
scenic pendant
Depending on what the anti-cheat does and report
I'd ideally like that kind of software to be opensource
Well. I'd like all software to be opensource, but this specifically is something that needs to be open for me to trust the thing.
left fog
that would not work cause it would defy the purpose in both short and long term
scenic pendant
That is a problem then, because yes, anti-cheats going through my entire FS is a bit invasive
Just a tiny-ass bit
left fog
but any sane anticheat isn't going thru your entire FS ...
scenic pendant
I should probably run ARMA 3 in a chroot, in that note.
left fog
that's typical cheat makers done social engineering FUD at work
typical example, you have dozen Petabytes of data on your drives (FS) ...
you start game, then wait some years before it finish analyzing the data π
scenic pendant
There were anti-cheats that did that, I'm just not sure of the state of modern ones
scenic pendant
Also, I distinctly remember some anticheat wanting admin access to scan your memory
left fog
that was just workaround for era w/o services / drivers
scenic pendant
Which makes sense as an anti-cheat measure, but it can still fuck off π
Well. To be fair, on Linux, you have so many ways of hiding the true process tree, it's not even an issue
Just an annoyance
left fog
in short, if you want effective anticheat, it must run with kernel component and optimally own UEFI service as bonus π€£
scenic pendant
Yeah, and I will never install one like that on my machine
left fog
mumbles something about replacing IME with anticheat OS
scenic pendant
A way better approach is to search for ways to make cheating impossible in the first place
But that requires a lot of devs changing a lot of habits
left fog
that's not always possible, even if you do it right with server-centric design
scenic pendant
Not gonna happen soon
warm dune
That's probably its own field of research entirely
left fog
i can demonstrate you working aimbot for videostreamed game (e.g. i did that for OnLive years ago)
all you need is detect shape and colors on the screen and the just adjust the input (mouse/keyboard/controller)
scenic pendant
I think Valve is on the right track btw
With their AI anticheat.
That works mostly after the fact
left fog
so, no matter how thin you make the end client, there will be always something left to keep eye on
scenic pendant
It looks through the demos and searches for suspect players
Then feeds them to real players for evaluation, hundreds of them
left fog
AI anticheat isn't much different than FairFight etc. comparing stats and timers and behaviour
scenic pendant
And learns itself in the process
left fog
it works only against what's beyond range ...
scenic pendant
But yeah, it's a massive undertaking, Valve can do it, not everyone can
left fog
so, let say you have cheat and know where everyone is but that's it ...
your AI anticheat is flatout useless against that
scenic pendant
You underestimate modern learning algorithms
left fog
cause you will die normally, you may or may not succeed
scenic pendant
I'd even say you're vastly underestimating just how good they are today
left fog
oh, all i seen is AI algo fail, all over again no matter on training
and that's from company which makes more money than Valve
scenic pendant
Dude Google has demonstrated a bot that can call places for you and make reservations without the other person realizing they're talking to a bot most of the time
It's insane how far the tech has gotten
left fog
in short, there are cases where AI anticheat will work just fine or effectively
and there are cases where it will do flat out nil
scenic pendant
And the point of VACNet is to learn from us.
We feed it info on what we think is suspicious behaviour
left fog
and don't get me started about the uncanny valley where the AI will be unable to determine too good human from cheater
scenic pendant
That is also a thing with a human. It's insanely hard to distinguish a legit AWP god from a cheater sometimes
left fog
typical example of FairFight behaviour patterns banning legit players in BC2 just because you were getting 20+ headshots in row etc.
scenic pendant
There were false positive bans on just very good players, shit happens.
VACNet is apparently pretty good at it tho.
They've stated they want less false positives in the end, so dunno how agressive they'll make it
left fog
like i said, i see it working quite fine against obvious cheats and easy detectable stuff
anything subtle, it will fail cause there is no way to determien if it's fluke, good player, intuition or random or cheat
scenic pendant
Well. If you want to know your players don't cheat, you need to know their enviromnent. All of it. Control the gaming PC completely.
Down to an OS that is installed by you and set up by you, not the player
left fog
even then i can cheat and you will not know it
scenic pendant
Yeah, and there are ways outside of the hardware
I don't think the invasion of privacy implied is worth weeding out cheaters.
BTW what has been proposed β and implemented β several times in history is cheater reservations
Don't ban them, just make them play with each other.
left fog
hence why it's enough to make it difficult in way that majority of cheaters gives up or move to 'less hardened' titles
left fog
well, we ban them, they can always play at server without battleye π€£
scenic pendant
I legit think that if Valve just makes official cheat-allowed servers, their MM problem will lessen considerably.