if enemy range is less, that means I'm getting shot at, which means they're already dead anyway 😦
#Unstable Transit
urban bridge
light verge
only really has synergy with missile-
wait
this is a weapon?
fire rate?
wait no it's an ability
yeah synergy with missiles
nova light
2s charge time
fleet steppe
oh that's neat
didn't realize I did so well
I ended up picking two zone upgrades for B5 then B4, B5 was doubled hp and damage and I think it played out quite well until the medium spam caught up to me
deft jetty
Rank 2 
lusty umbra
What is rank in this context?
novel quiver
What is rank in this context?
Comparison to everyone else who did the same UT
Sector and base hp
proper zinc
does this only work if I use 1 heavy cruiser?
oh is it reducing the number of ships for me?
(it didnt)
fleet steppe
Each deployment of Heavy Cruisers puts two ships in one slot. The Tank cruiser makes each deployment one ship, with health and damage that roughly equals both of the original heavy cruisers combined
proper zinc
ah so it probably didnt work because I didnt change my old formation.
alpine hemlock
before upgrade
alpine hemlock
ah so it probably didnt work because I didnt change my old formation.
after upgrade
get it?
one ship in the box instead of two
lusty umbra
how burst works with missile launchers?
alpine hemlock
they shoot twice, same as most things
you get an entire spread of however many projectiles for each burst
anyway, burst is good with missiles. it works the way you would want
burst missile fighters can lag your game a bit though lol
light verge
burst missile fighters can lag your game a bit though lol
hard
wave 30 mono fighter 3 choices with barrier and teleports and jacked up to its gills with 20 fire rate and 50 damage boosts and 3 instances of burst fire resulted in lag so high i get 4 frames per sec
nova light
it is also roughly speaking the best setup you can get
fervent turret
does burst fire still keep a single target only?
alpine hemlock
per turret, yes. another W for missiles, which can reacquire when their target dies
fleet steppe
Missiles the goat
vital oar
2nd run after None is DUO more mods - get your hand on it
lusty umbra
Is there hard max at stages you can get in UT? Or if you get super lucky you will able to go infinite?
fleet steppe
enemies outscale you very quickly around stage 20
there is no way to go infinite
there's probably some mathematical "impossible stage", somewhere below 40
it's somewhere over 30
but I don't think it's possible to get to or beat 40
lusty umbra
Ye you can go farther with barrier fighters because it doesn't care how hard enemy hit but even that doesn't get that far
fleet steppe
even with charge lasers 🗿
looks like Ship Improvement also buffs tick rate, which is nice
rapid beam did so much better than heavy split beam from a single test
woeful zephyr
GPUs HATE this one trick!
nova light
Is there hard max at stages you can get in UT? Or if you get super lucky you wil...
enemies around stage 45ish have these stats, not really
stage 49 actually
anyways you can safely say that stage 50+ is impossible without shenanigans
woeful zephyr
enemies around stage 45ish have these stats, not really
how did you get to stage 45?
woeful zephyr
impressively good None today
fervent turret
think I made it to 15 😔
woeful zephyr
ok 3rd run might be better - i need to hurry up
3rd run? damn you bank a lot of fuel, don't you? 😆
vital oar
thats 3rd run frm yesterday
i guess that one after none duo and this
or maybe its the first run today
i dunno how does it reset and when
imtrying to bank but usually i have no charges
everything goes SO well
i dunno if i should take fighter teleport now...
well let me take it and we will c
acceptable
this is my fighter atm and i think i like mini rail gun weapon type
cant get past wave 27
aaalrighty then
vital oar
but ppl above showing 45+- waves
i just pick damage related stuff for fighters only and watch they melt /rip
fervent turret
I'd really love to earn more retries or something...
it's so annoying trying to iterate to figure out what makes a fight work and then run 5 is like the worst one yet but its "haha too late now sucker"
alpine hemlock
but ppl above showing 45+- waves
nah the 30+ crazy runs are mono simulations
duo craps out at 30-31 even when you get a god run
nova light
40+ is just impossible btw
vital oar
it's so annoying trying to iterate to figure out what makes a fight work and the...
all i want is saving best run out of those 5
or else its just so lame... but, ofc saving us sometimes...
nova light
it's so annoying trying to iterate to figure out what makes a fight work and the...
you go forward with your best clear anyways
wild timber
yeah the ui for it is kind of bad but it always keeps best one
alpine hemlock
particularly where it keeps the base damage of the last attempt showing at the top for a while
doesnt it stay during the draft even?
wild timber
doesnt it stay during the draft even?
yeah lol
light verge
does UT have a cap?
alpine hemlock
does UT have a cap?
technically no, practically yes
25 runs or so and you're getting less than 1% improvement
fervent turret
pretty confident this is flatly impossible
why is it SO MANY???
it's only stage 10?
my base is taking 380 damage bare minimum
got it down to this on last try but dude
it really feels to me like something is wonk in pre-10 enemy quantity scaling
I don't know if it's because the weapon options are imbalanced, if it's the player ship choices, or what
wild timber
charge laser is also generally still an active downgrade over no weapon
shell jasper
There is no enemy quantity scaling. It just mirrors your so count with mediums on either side counting as 2
alpine hemlock
wait. BULWARKS count as small enemies???
wild timber
it's kind of funny that no extra ships is beneficial because it means you don't get one regular upgrade eaten by +1 ship every 3rd wave
alpine hemlock
It's also +1 enemy every 10 i think
scrolling up to the first late stage i see, this looks like 13 points vs 13 #1335902304959987733 message
at stage 29
no +2
shell jasper
Oh right or double start gain every 10 not enemy
alpine hemlock
yeah i knew about the stats
shell jasper
So bulwark wrong but I'll need to check it's stats
alpine hemlock
but in thegreenguy #1335902304959987733 message here, he has 10 vs 11
assuming bulwark counts as 2 which it must in a just world
shell jasper
Or maybe edge case bug where it rolls last one wrong
alpine hemlock
if you're all missiles they can be ok
wild timber
it they spawn in frontrow you throw like 2 fighters at them and they become a nonissue
alpine hemlock
well for sure, the damage they do is not the issue
it's in the name
they die last, anything shooting them is wasting their time
fervent turret
There is no enemy quantity scaling. It just mirrors your so count with mediums ...
I don't feel like mediums are equal to 2 smalls - I think it's like 1.5
especially the 'normals' or whatever they're called
shell jasper
How much juice does cl need to not suck still?
fervent turret
I really don't know with the CL - I've been messing with it on purpose last few runs and doing practice runs too, it feels best with fighters or maybe corvettes to me, I was seeing here if CL would be solid anti-medium counterplay
wild timber
i don't think it'll ever not suck on 2-ship units
you just lose so much clearing potential
fervent turret
not sure where my result for today went
wild timber
honestly i think frigates and cruisers just shouldn't have options that completely gut their firerate (aside from possibly beam)
fervent turret
part of my theory is the heavy cruiser only having the 1 weapon mount means it should be focused on anti-medium while the regular cruiser with 3 turrets each can be missile launcher or railgun
but it's a damn struggle to get the heavy cruiser to upgraded CL and not fall over
wild timber
the extra turrets on cruiser is kind of whatever, they still target the same enemy 99% of the time
fervent turret
but that makes a big difference with missile launchers at least
3 by 3 or 4 instead of 1 by 3 or 4
'course maybe that means my reasoning should be reversed and HC should be ML and regular cruiser should be CL, I dunno
fervent turret
bulwarks are run killers
you guys cursed me
(this config cleared it but idk why exactly)
fervent turret
some thinking-aloud commentary:
- CL being good on fighters seems to be less about the actual change in damage and more that it just slows the fighters down to not outpace your other ships
- fire rate on corvette/cruisers seems like I've been underrating it vs damage, stacking a lot of it seems to make a better difference?
- having SOME range boost seems like it's having a significant impact (but I think should be avoided on CL fighters, or they stay too far back to soak damage)
terse night
uhh. At a guess your swarmer crossed up some and ate shots (like their cruiser) so other things could get in range without taking to much damage.
fervent turret
still pretty lost on the impact of hullboost, I would think it makes bigger difference on cruiser/HC, but...
terse night
Best defense is a better offense
Issue with Hull. If each shot = half your health. Increasing slightly MIGHT make you take 3 shots. More likely though you'll still take 2 for awhile so you have to take 3-4 upgrades to live through a single shot. Where as if you kill something. It's DPS is 0.
Hull would have to be a lot bigger to be worthwhile to take
If it doubled your effective health it'd be worth it because then you can go "Yeah. I can kill something in 3 shots. I die in 2. If I take more damage I MIGHT get it down to 2 shots but if I get hull I survive 4 shots so I can kill more per ship"
fervent turret
the extra turrets on cruiser is kind of whatever, they still target the same ene...
seems like it's effectively targeting multiple opponents for me 🤔
wild timber
the first volley when directly aligned with an enemy can hit multiple fairly consistently, but beyond that they just double up as usual
fervent turret
makes me wonder if the HC had 4 turrets like ours does, CL would be good then?
wild timber
considering the cruisers lose this stage 4 engagement, i somewhat doubt it :V
fervent turret
I mean to me that's more proof that mediums =/= 2 smalls
wild timber
in terms of dps they're actually worth more than 2 smalls
it's just that they suck with firerate
it's just way too easy for charge cruisers to get bottlenecked by like 1-2 alive enemies for one final volley, which snowballs into dying because they don't move on to snipers quickly enough
fervent turret
how is this missile sniper almost one-shotting my cruiser???
there is also a normal sniper next to it I guess...
fervent turret
tried a run with duo CL fighters and ML HC... got to 25 without a hitch and then suddenly fell over because bulwark + 3 snipers
seems to be the limit here with CL corvette & ML cruisers
fervent turret
How much juice does cl need to not suck still?
I know I'm kinda ramble/spamming so I'll try to settle on my input - my feeling is it's not that CLs 'need juice to not suck', but a bunch of other factors about UT playing against their favor (and these factors also affect beams similarly)
- the game is grossly outnumbering players to the point that sheer missile spam is the meta to deal with it, whether it's the 2:1 smalls to medium thing or the additional enemies after 10
- HC having just 1 turret instead of 4 makes it a very bad combination with slow-firing single-target weapons
- bulwarks soak up priority and damage so heavily that it doubly punishes you for not having missiles instead of single-target weapons
- snipers/missiles/regular smalls all counter using CLs pretty heavily, because the snipers just have so much range that they gib CL ships before they can get close enough (the players' ships slowing down before they reach firing range hurts a lot with this), and the regulars take too much time tanking the hits
- against gatlings, regular mediums, or fighters (IF not using CL on a frigate/HC), they seem to do fine
wild timber
you also generally want to avoid having any lasers at all so you don't end up with multiple shielded enemies
the enemy layout would not have 2 shielded mediums if your corvettes were on mini rail
fervent turret
my suggestions are to look at:
- lower the ratio of smalls-to-mediums spawns
- reduce regular smalls to a fleet of 5 instead of 6, or adjust their stats a bit
- try a 4-turret HC instead of 1
- nerf bulwarks
- nerf sniper/missile range
fervent turret
the enemy layout would not have 2 shielded mediums if your corvettes were on min...
enemy spawns don't seem to reflect my weapon choices, maybe I'm mistaken but I've tried going all-armor before and it doesn't seem to go well
wild timber
they do
if you have 0 laser weapons you can only have 1 shielded enemy on future spawns, and vice versa for 0 kinetics
it doesn't work if you had 1 laser and switched it to kinetic on that particular wave though
fervent turret
does that mean if I start out with corvettes/HC then that rules that out from the start?
wild timber
yeah, but there are no good laser options for dealing with swarmers so it's generally worse to be pure laser than pure kinetic
fervent turret
also fighters start with lasers
I do think the shielded fighters/regular smalls can be a problem but it's not as big a problem as the other things I listed
and my idea for that is to be able to choose to stick with laser/kinetic cannon... or add in gatling as an option
wild timber
i doubt HC or bulwark/sniper nerfs will make it through because they're still meant to reflect actual galaxy gameplay
fervent turret
I mean if that's the case then where's our shielded corvettes, armored frigates, and much-more-effective armor-reduction cruisers 😛
wild timber
much more effective? it's the 1:1 armored cruiser template im pretty sure
fervent turret
we also do get barriers and all but that's not so useful because of the enemy quantity problem
if it is the same template, then something is up because missile enemies still murder my damage-reduction cruisers
wild timber
damage block scales with hp and nobody takes hp upgrades in UT
so of course the damage block falls off at stage 12 or whatever
fervent turret
I've tried taking HP upgrades with it
doesn't seem to make much difference
I'm honestly feeling like when I do take it it's usually detrimental because it reduces my turret #
wild timber
because taking HP means you still do less damage and you get outscaled in the end anyway
that would be cuz it is usually detrimental
fervent turret
if you have 0 laser weapons you can only have 1 shielded enemy on future spawns,...
am trying this out now and yeah okay I see... I'm not sure I like this as a feature though because it's essentially "get punished if you take a balanced damage mix"
and it's not intuitive - I had no reason to suspect that's how spawns get altered until you told me
wild timber
yea i like the idea of some bad rng protection but it's a bit spotty and imo enemy spawn positions are worse than armored/shielded enemy rng anyway
fervent turret
mhmm, and I think the spawn situation is because of imbalances in enemies - in ideal circumstances I think enemy positioning should be solvable by player positioning primarily
seems like versatile railgun counts as 'kinetic' for influencing the spawn types too? which is kinda odd
wild timber
it does, yeah
light verge
charge lasers are dogshite
the rapid one is barely rapid
the snipe laser makes it... useable
but you're basically consigning a run with charge lasers not to go past wave 8-10 depending on where you put it
on frigates that's a death sentence
fighters are kneecapped
they still work ok with corvettes
one of their major problems is their inability to retarget to an enemy they can one shot with the highest HP
between an enemy with 5 and 20 hp, both in this example it can one shot, it will not go for the 20 hp but instead go for the 5
they also like to overlap as well
alpine hemlock
i understand you don't want to make the AI too complciated or do too much custom stuff
but you mentioned per-weapon targeting tweaks might be on the table
CL having a baked in default of "highest HP" or "highest max HP" would go a long way
alpine hemlock
but the otherwise, the damage type spawn mechaics mean the meta is to specialize. so we are encouraged to go all rail+missiles, or all lasers+beams
but both CL lasers and beams are good and bad against the same things
it's fine to have slow anti-shield weapon(s) but there needs to be at least one fast one
where gattling
nova light
It's also +1 enemy every 10 i think
now that's rude
also doesn't actually change anything for non-g6 origin runs because you pretty much max out by stage 20 already 🤔
nova light
i just need like augmented default weapon
sylv said he doesn't want any weapon to be like, super better than default/always picked
...mini rail gun still fits that btw
shell jasper
I know I'm kinda ramble/spamming so I'll try to settle on my input - my feeling ...
- Other then that one bug that seems to be an edge case you arent outnumbered. Mediums have disadvantages in the form of less ships so they have less shots and are slower to kill higher numbers, but they have more then double the stats and choosig an upgrade for them vs smalls is a bigger increase in stat totals. I dont think the underlying problem is here really.
That said, the enemy matching could maybe match types too, 3 mediums to your 3 mediums etc. Ther ejust isnt much medium enemy types lol - its not 1 vs 4 turrets that causes the problems, its 2 vs 4 (or whatever) ships. Turrets on the same ship target the ssame thing except for very specific ranges where they can't, shouldnt come up much
- Thats the point/difficulty of bulwarks. smalls will shoot other smalls though if they enter range when shooting a bulwark etc
- Ya CLs suck. I dont know if there is any hope for a slower weapon to be useful without insane buffs like overflow damage increasing how soon you shoot again or something ><
I cant really lowe rthe ratios of smalls to mediums, 1.5 means you or the enemy are more disadvantaged then normal frequently since it wont evenly fit in to your totals IE 3 small 1 med = 4.5 so does it do 4 or 5 enemy smalls? The end result would be matching medium and small counts exactly, which could be a thing, just not to do with weighting
light verge
is there even a chance not to get an upgraded default weapon? As far as I'm aware most times the choice system just ends up giving me alternative weapons for all of my ships.
shell jasper
sylv said he doesn't want any weapon to be like, super better than default/alway...
well no thats in main not UT, UT obviously the weapons should be upgrades in general
shell jasper
beam is meant to take care of a rapid fire slot for laser, its just too shitty right now
nova light
well no thats in main not UT, UT obviously the weapons should be upgrades in gen...
yeah but the UT weapons are balanced around the main ones...
nova light
beam is meant to take care of a rapid fire slot for laser, its just too shitty r...
nope, beam laser is much closer to charge laser than gatling
shell jasper
I mean sorta, they are fully seperate with their own stats, just same idea/stat direction
nova light
long range, high damage, good against single beefy enemies
that is NOT the concept that kills swarmer
shell jasper
rapid beam is fast 
nova light
we don't have laser boost to increase charge speed and tick rate by 10x which is actually fast
nova light
rapid beam is fast <:USIShrug:1288517050708529224>
which is fine and all if you didn't outright die after taking the default beam
which sucks
a lot
wild timber
i think each ship should probably only have like 3 weapon mods in addition to upgraded default, i can't see frigate beam ever being good
shell jasper
I almost kept weapons partly ship specific
but then you just choose ships for weapons :*(
nova light
but then you just choose ships for weapons :*(
you do that anyways
you have to choose ships for mods and you choose mods for weapons
shell jasper
ya, thats choosing the ship your upgrading though not "missiles are best I just take frigat ever time every run"
nova light
kwee
shell jasper
missiles probably just too good at enemy swarm killing, throwing off perceptions smh
nova light
friendly reminder we don't have any other solution
well when you boil it down UT just comes down to how many shots and missiles have the most shots
it's because missiles are the most flexible, which you have to be in order to do well in UT
charge lasers are too rigid, and therefore suck
nova light
ya, thats choosing the ship your upgrading though not "missiles are best I just...
well, except frigates suck and you'd just choose mini rail gun fighters all the time instead
shell jasper
damage ratios probably off too
wild timber
also frigate is awful with stuff like barrier
shell jasper
missiles shoud do less and/or slower weapns should do more, and ther eneeds to be more big 1 or 2 ship groups that they take care of
nova light
at least cruisers are stronger
wild timber
ut rerework when
nova light
missiles shoud do less and/or slower weapns should do more, and ther eneeds to ...
also fuck is it fair that our missiles have 500 range and enemies have 1200
light verge
tbh i think the issue is the lack of control on how to counter specific configurations
nova light
tbh i think the issue is the lack of control on how to counter specific configur...
it comes down to flexibility
light verge
it will all become an all-out melee if we're just going to use the same ships and be at the mercy of the rng
nova light
which, missiles are the best
light verge
because that means since we have no guarantee about what ships we'll be getting
nova light
oh yeah charge lasers could use another like
they get completely stomped by snipers
light verge
we'll just choose the BIS for most general situations
nova light
because they are outrange by like, 400
nova light
light verge
but i feel you'd get more strategic mileage by making certain ships/weapons hard counters to other ship types
and turning the fleet resource system on again as a point-buy system
that gets restored to 100% every battle so there is no reason not to use all of them
nova light
but i feel you'd get more strategic mileage by making certain ships/weapons hard...
no because rng goes 'fuck you' and just hard counters everything you have every time and you die
light verge
the alternative which is what we have isn't any better
it's just stack missiles and kill
fervent turret
* Other then that one bug that seems to be an edge case you arent outnumbered. ...
- what do you see as the reason for missile launchers being the meta pick then, if not for players being outnumbered by the opponent, even though MLs are low damage, low range, bad vs shields, and bad against mediums & snipers? not for nothing, I'm seeing this as the biggest difference between UT and regular galaxy fleet battles.
- compositions mirroring players more closely might work? but also might not, e.g. what happens when it's 4 bulwarks to my 4 mediums and 7 missile/snipers to my 7 lights, as a really simplified example?
- it's 1 ship if taking the armor upgrade but that's not the point really even though it worsens the issue; 1 missile launcher vs 3 targets is a lot less separate targets and Sol did post a video of CL cruisers splitting targets here #1335902304959987733 message
- I understand 'that's the point' with bulwarks - but only to a point, I think they're doing it a little too well. I wouldn't go as far as to call them run-killers by themselves like others here have but I do highlight it as a point of concern; and the smalls shooting other smalls is often a bad thing when they could be finishing off a low-health medium
- I don't think CLs suck. with enough burst fire/rate of fire upgrades they seem to do OK in a decent number of enemy comps (I got a bunch of test runs to 25 with them on fighters/corvettes and MLs on mediums), again I think it's other various factors working against them in tandem here - or said differently based on what you've said here, I think it's possible to tweak other factors so that slower weapons can be useful like they are in galaxy/fleet
- I would err on the side of rounding down, or alternatively, assign different smalls/mediums different weights, e.g. gatlings probably would be an 0.7 right now where I would rate small regulars about 1.2; either way my point is still that mediums do not feel equal footing to 2 smalls to me
(sometimes the small/medium target priority can work in player favor too, just like in fleet, I'm just saying it's a hindrance as much as an advantage)
light verge
I don't think CLs suck. with enough burst fire/rate of fire upgrades they seem to do OK in a decent number of enemy comps (I got a bunch of test runs to 25 with them on fighters/corvettes and MLs on mediums), again I think it's other various factors working against them in tandem here - or said differently based on what you've said here, I think it's possible to tweak other factors so that slower weapons can be useful like they are in galaxy/fleet
fervent turret
beam is meant to take care of a rapid fire slot for laser, its just too shitty r...
this is weird to me, I know there's that one challenge where the pick is the BL with bunch of laser support but that's an exceptional case in no small part owing to stacking tons of big damage buffs with the supports for tick/speed to the point that long-range hitscan becomes the play; I've never felt like beams are anything close to a rapid-fire weapon outside of that exception, even with full laser boost support (which we don't exactly have going for us in galaxy stuff)
light verge
problem with this is that you got as far as run 25
most runs end at 10, and the difficulty kind of ramps up quickly for charges to just be phased out
fervent turret
problem with this is that you got as far as run 25
this was "forcing it" by doing practice mode with duo and extra choices and so on for 'ideal' conditions
light verge
even more problems then
wild timber
even though MLs are low damage, low range, bad vs shields, and bad against mediums & snipers?
only initial range is bad
dps is the same as mini railgun, and the retargeting actually means they can kill snipers earlier than other weapons with the remainder of a volley
light verge
feels like it should be tested on standard
light verge
> even though MLs are low damage, low range, bad vs shields, and bad against med...
retargeting is OP
fervent turret
also there was somebody posting the other day about getting to 45-50 with barrier fighters with CL
light verge
any overspent shot by fighters means that magically kills another target
god forbid you get a teleport
fervent turret
"instantly teleport your fleet into weapons range of the entire enemy fleet" is insta loss to me
light verge
it's for the same reason you stack mutalisks in starcraft
fervent turret
which, missiles are the best
if flexibility was the best then versatile railguns should be king, but they ain't
light verge
but missiles are functionally flexible though
retarget does a lot for it
it flies fast
the many projectiles helps with it getting dps upgrades i feel
wild timber
it just means missiles are baseline more flexible than versatile in spite of the additional x2 shield modifier
nova light
also there was somebody posting the other day about getting to 45-50 with barrie...
nobody posted that bro
fervent turret
rapid beam is fast <:USIShrug:1288517050708529224>
also I haven't had a good experience with rapid beam, there's never a case where rapid beam is better than splitting for dealing with multiple targets and the DPS never gets high enough to be better for single target, it's only "fast" when you're strong enough to be sweeping the opponent anyway is what it feels like
nova light
it was stage 30
nova light
if flexibility was the best then versatile railguns *should* be king, but they a...
versatile railguns are in some ways less flexible
light verge
in terms of flexibility missiles are overtuned because you can regularly get to 30 without breaking a sweat almost every single time
fervent turret
I don't think it is them being overtuned, I think that it's cause it's the only way to overcome the aspect of being outnumbered
light verge
at the current balance it feels like it's designed for you to fail at around 10-15
which is fine
missiles can regularly get you to 20 with no sweat
i'd say it's overtuned for the context
nova light
it is designed to basically lose even before stage 10 sometimes
kinda lame if you can get max artifacts every run with only a little effort
fervent turret
it was stage 30
-# wasn't there a message linking to an older post or something... maybe I'm getting unstable lul
shell jasper
- what do you see as the reason for missile launchers being the meta pick then, ...
It's because they have the least wasted dps. All the dps is roughly equally balanced in terms of raw stats. But any hits that do overkill damage waste that. So low damage high fire rate is most efficient.
light verge
i'd say it's overtuned for the context
it's like Picayune Dreams' chainsword
5 damage per tick at cost of range, but it also hits twice as fast as the eye laser
it's functionally 7 levels of survivorlike exp in one item
nova light
-# wasn't there a message linking to an older post or something... maybe I'm get...
I post this reaching stage 49, but the ships were only adding lag after stage 30
nova light
It's because they have the least wasted dps. All the dps is roughly equally bal...
charge lasers suck because they overkill by like 10x and all that wasted dps means it's shit
shell jasper
Ya missiles are just too good more then the others being bad i think, or at least it's partially that way
nova light
beam lasers do better because the ticks and instant connect make them more efficient
light verge
iirc burst fire does NOT operate as burstfire with missiles
alpine hemlock
? yes it does
nova light
however still not super great because they do have low fire rate still
light verge
it just lowers fire rate and produces another set of projectiles at the same time
nova light
iirc burst fire does NOT operate as burstfire with missiles
nah, it works as it does
light verge
good then
because if it did
and you could offset it with fire rate boosts presuming optimal gameplay
yeah that's kind of bonkers
the faster you kill a target after all means there's one less enemy targeting you
alpine hemlock
make missiles do more damage, remove ability to hit the same target more than once
if there are too few targets, eat shit
light verge
i'd say just remove retarget
nova light
if there are too few targets, eat shit
now we'd have more players complaining
nova light
i'd say just remove retarget
it used to be like that, and it was shit
light verge
no middleground huh
alpine hemlock
missiles actually bad against things that arent >2 ships per unit
nova light
missiles do have very low dps but they use it very effectively with retargeting, and overall they come out to more effective dps
alpine hemlock
instead of just good against everything and GREAt against >2
light verge
more damage then, hit targets only once and prioritize unique targets, no retarget
fervent turret
It's because they have the least wasted dps. All the dps is roughly equally bal...
isn't that a phenomenon that naturally goes hand in hand with low damage? that seems 'of course it's that way' to me, I don't think that's a causal factor
light verge
yes
fervent turret
overkill doesn't become a detrimental thing unless you're being sufficiently outnumbered
(or really unlucky thresholds but those should be edge cases, not the norm)
light verge
the state of UT atm
fervent turret
if there are too few targets, eat shit
tbh this is how I assumed MLs worked from the very start of first unlocking them in normal game mode
alpine hemlock
well it isnt lol, they double up and focus fire when there's only one thing in range
light verge
a lot of my charge laser corvettes just up and croak
the range isn't too good that they can get a few cheap hits in before getting hit themselves
nova light
charge laser range buff would help
light verge
snipe charge laser is pretty good though because they can get 1.5 hits in
nova light
charge lasers getting stomped by snipers is sad
alpine hemlock
problem with trying to actually play range, is that you have other units that are not long ranged
light verge
charge lasers literally get bodied by snipers first
alpine hemlock
so you're still in a brawl most of the time anyway
light verge
there's still a funny strat in that though
you put the chargies up front
and the fast movers in the back
fervent turret
a lot of my charge laser corvettes just up and croak
this is what has me wondering what the impact of shield/armor options for our smalls would be
cause the hull upgrades as-is ain't doing the trick
light verge
cause the hull upgrades as-is ain't doing the trick
problem with that is the scaling
they're scaling damage every time
your hull damage reduction is only scaling on pace if you always obtained hull upgrade
fervent turret
yes but why is it that the hull upgrade doesn't keep up where damage does
alpine hemlock
making defense good is harder than making offense good
there's a big risk you get slow boring fights
empty cargo
charge lasers getting stomped by snipers is sad
main game: charge lasers kill snipers
fleet: snipers revenge
alpine hemlock
i mean from a dev persepctive
light verge
but you dont have anything like that in your repertoire
light verge
it does
def needs to scale sharply for players to offset the fact you don't always get it and you have to sacrifice damage to do so for the most part
nova light
cause the hull upgrades as-is ain't doing the trick
dead things don't hurt you
glass cannon meta
light verge
dead things don't hurt you
which is why missile/retarget is OP
alpine hemlock
i think defense is best as a kind of pass fail in games
you have enough or you die horribly, you have even more than enough it doesnt do much
a threshold thing
alpine hemlock
a dimension UT is missing is ship/build specialization
almost all upgrades are good
all the time
a few are situational like teleport
fervent turret
almost all upgrades are good
are they though?
alpine hemlock
but not just that they're all good, they're not particularly good on specific ships
or in combination with specific other mods
if you are offered any good mod, you always want it on your best ship, essentially
for example, you might have a mod that's good on long ranged ships, or fast firing ships
hull bomb is like the only example currently
that i can think of
and hull bomb itself is good, but it's not good to take HP with it
light verge
are they though?
i see potential in them at least
just needs better execution
i feel this is an overall gameplay direction issue instead of a singular elemental issue
e.g. hull upgrades not working is i dont think an issue of the hull upgrades themselves
more like the enemies still pace their damage and hull with you anyway
fervent turret
hull upgrades - not worth
range upgrades - ??? one or two maybe??? you need too many to actually trade with the things that outrange you so pretty moot
rate of fire upgrades - very worth, because outnumbered
damage upgrades - default pick because scaling
teleport - probably bad idea, you want fighters to take hits for your mediums/frigates
barrier - barely matters with the volume of fire coming in most of the time, okay on fighters though
burst fire - good 1-2 times only (and even then I'm not too sure about it, it doesn't help with multi targeting right?)
grid buffs - seems good but really not since it locks your positioning in
beams or CLs on frigate/cruiser/HC - don't even think about it
railguns - "I don't know what else to try and am ok with petering out some place after 10" choice
alpine hemlock
hull upgrades suck because they're weak. you could make the numbers high enough that they were good
but i dont think that would actually be fun
light verge
barrier seems fine
alpine hemlock
it would be correct to take them but the battle would just be slower
light verge
maybe have it scale on quantity based on ship type
idk if it's because i played too much SMT or not but i prefer things to have hard counters with them and also have the freedom of choice what to field
fervent turret
this is where I wonder about having shield/armor, and have maybe "1 offensive upgrade + 1 defensive upgrade" preceding the "pick a fight" round, where the choices in defense could be hull multiplier, shield multiplier, barrier, or armor multiplier
light verge
all of this is just melee to me
fervent turret
that way players can scale offense/defense round by round more smoothly instead of having to go all-in on offense to keep up?
alpine hemlock
an ideal drafting game has options that are correct in some circumstance
more than one "final build" which is good
and doesnt allow you to guarantee which "final build" you get
fervent turret
mmhm, roughly equally viable alternatives
alpine hemlock
ie you take what you get and make something good out of it
fervent turret
-# which sadly goes past the head of so many other games' devs
alpine hemlock
instead of always take the best stuff, from this list of stuff in this order
that's boring
fervent turret
instead of always take the best stuff, from this list of stuff in this order
100%, and the thing is that is the natural result of having imbalances present
alpine hemlock
the synergies can be extremely on the nose obvious. the mere existence of "mod that is insanely good if you have charge lasers but bad if you have missiles"
type thing, is really positive
fervent turret
I could tell you guys all day about Elite Dangerous and its balance issues and why it results in a lot of 'this thing is the best option, in objective mechanical terms'
or like, I still watch a bunch of HS battlegrounds streamers, all day it's just watching them pick the best comp based on the lobby conditions rather'n really see interesting plays get made aside from the memes
but I digress that's all getting off-topic
light verge
and doesnt allow you to guarantee which "final build" you get
for what it's worth it's easy to land here because we're a stats-based draft builder
and not a card-based sts clone
we dont have a magic the gathering spread of alternative cards
light verge
what i'm saying is to effectively achieve your vision there needs to be a lot of choices
shell jasper
if there are too few targets, eat shit
that would be pretty rough I think, completely cant kill bigger stuff lol
alpine hemlock
i did say increase the damage
but being actually bad against big stuff was the point, yes
light verge
that would be pretty rough I think, completely cant kill bigger stuff lol
reactive armor scaling time i guess
shell jasper
but they are kinda too good sooooooooooooooooooo
light verge
CL are godawful against swarmers
completely can't kill smaller stuff
12 swarmers are a guaranteed party wipe for a cl user
and that's just a single ship group
fervent turret
mmmm
light verge
i almost feel like CL should have a tight AOE on it
fervent turret
I think with the right burst fire + amount of rate of fire upgrades CL fighters or corvettes might cope with 12 swarmers
maybe not past like 20 though
light verge
I think with the right burst fire + amount of rate of fire upgrades CL fighters ...
that just turns their dps into default laser though
fervent turret
well yea
shell jasper
if you are offered any good mod, you always want it on your best ship, essential...
its an issue thats just intrinsic to the design of fleet for ut. the only speciailization I coudl do is limiting weapons, but that feels really limited if I do that.
light verge
at the moment, yes
i am not sure if you intend to add new ship classes for the player to use
alpine hemlock
what i'm saying is to effectively achieve your vision there needs to be a lot of...
simple examples of what i mean: on hit effects, absolute damage modifiers. these mods care about relative fire rate, and output different damage with different weapons.
- +5 damage per projectile (relatively bad on CL)
- -5 damage per projectile +50% fire rate (relatively good on CL)
light verge
i know you get more choices later on
fervent turret
an elephant in this room too is... how many secret goodies Sylv is saving for the next galaxy's UT
in terms of more choices/upgrades to toy with
obviously expect no comment on that though 😄
shell jasper
hull upgrades suck because they're weak. you could make the numbers high enough ...
they are more stat gain then other upgrades, but its just not a great "stat". Hugely increasing it also runs the risk of it being strictly more effective then damage and you jus get longer and longer engagements.
light verge
currently though picking hull is always a bad option
so i am not seeing your vision here
alpine hemlock
yeah i don't think making a raw health upgrade meta would be a good thing. I just saying it was possible
fervent turret
so to some extent I can settle that 'this is just how z69's UT's quirks shake down and this is what we have for time being'
shell jasper
this is where I wonder about having shield/armor, and have maybe "1 offensive up...
having a specific "type" draft like that might be interesting. I dont think theres quite enough defensive options with how UT works though to make it feel interesting at all.
Introducing health typesf for the player and enemy weapon damage types could maybe do it but the enemy draft/composition would get even more swingy
fervent turret
I mean would it? player positioning to match damage types would be key ideally, no?
light verge
would be if we got more damage types from weapons
shell jasper
simple examples of what i mean: on hit effects, absolute damage modifiers. these...
oh thats kinda interesting
alpine hemlock
rather than a round with all defense, maybe combined options. "hp for frigate and fire rate for corvette" vs "hp for corvette and fire rate for fighter"
fervent turret
atm it feels a lot like "position to distract problem enemies until missile chuckers can wear them down without getting wiped, until scaling makes it all fall over"
alpine hemlock
is a real choice
shell jasper
an elephant in this room too is... how many secret goodies Sylv is saving for th...
I have 0 plans for next UT so far lol so uh... plenty of room ><
light verge
i feel it would be funny to have the ability to select weapons for ships
light verge
rather than a round with all defense, maybe combined options. "hp for frigate an...
well if we're gunning for your idea
maybe barrier-shields then
and the barrier upgrade just gives you more barriers for its rarity
shell jasper
so i am not seeing your vision here
errr, not sure what you mean by vision. I want hull to be something you would pick sometimes, just not sure if its possible to cause that
fervent turret
I have 0 plans for next UT so far lol so uh... plenty of room ><
-# 🤫
alpine hemlock
when the choice is HP or X, the choice is always X. so you could make it HP+X or HP+Y
light verge
errr, not sure what you mean by vision. I want hull to be something you would p...
I want hull to be something you would pick sometimes, just not sure if its possible to cause that
This is your vision
currently it's not possible because taking hull is always a loss
shell jasper
I mean would it? player positioning to match damage types would be key ideally, ...
I just think you coud get even MORE boned by enemy setups then you do now and its already kinda gnarly in that respect
light verge
when the choice is HP or X, the choice is always X. so you could make it HP+X o...
which is why barrier shields would be funny
+1 barrier, small hull upgrade
alpine hemlock
i enjoy the tension of the good mod comes with the bad fight
shell jasper
when the choice is HP or X, the choice is always X. so you could make it HP+X o...
but thats not a choice about HP ever then,its a choice of X or Y
alpine hemlock
it's less fun if the fight is an obvious loss though
fervent turret
when the choice is HP or X, the choice is always X. so you could make it HP+X o...
oh that's a good way to make it work without adding in defensive options
light verge
inb4 barrier shield meta because absolutely negating something is op as well on certain builds
inb4 barrier shields are limited only to corvettes and up (not fighters)
alpine hemlock
but thats not a choice about HP ever then,its a choice of X or Y
but the HP can be for different ships. still a decision
shell jasper
oh, ya I suppose
fervent turret
I just think you coud get even MORE boned by enemy setups then you do now and it...
I agree but my view is that boils down to sorting out the balance issues so that positioning feels reasonably intuitive to solve? though I recognize that's very much an easier said than done thing to say lol
light verge
I agree but my view is that boils down to sorting out the balance issues so that...
yeah that's deceptively difficult since the UT ships still inherit targeting priorities
alpine hemlock
it's good that it's not a great meta thing to do on purpose every time, but it would add some variety if occasinally your corvettes end up really tanky
fervent turret
ngl when I was messing with CL HC it was devilishly hard to figure out why it was targeting certain things at certain points instead of what I expected
same issue for non-splitter beams
alpine hemlock
shoot mediums in range > shoot smalls in range > move towards mediums > move towards smalls
cruiser / HC logic
fervent turret
which reminds me of a thought I had earlier - what's with the targeting area being a square instead of a circle?
alpine hemlock
with opposite for smalls
light verge
shoot mediums in range > shoot smalls in range > move towards mediums > move tow...
movement is separate from shooting, but yes
nova light
hull upgrades suck because they're weak. you could make the numbers high enough ...
already buffed from 12% to 15% of base, damage is 10% and firerate is 5%...
light verge
or rather it does that independently depending on who's in range
nova light
an ideal drafting game has options that are correct in some circumstance
UT is really a deckbuilder roguelike
nova light
and not a card-based sts clone
almost there
nova light
i almost feel like CL should have a tight AOE on it
shitty cruiser weapon ideas mk3:
Nuke Launcher:
damage: 100 (per turret, 300 total for a normal cruiser)
splash damage: 10%
splash radius: 50
firerate: 0.2/s
range: 5000
projectile speed: 3000
movement speed: 0 (ship cannot move)
2x armor damage
thoughts:
bomb launcher but actually interesting - anti-base weapon (the ones that return fire) - sniper on steroids - absolutely hilarious with the 5x damage 0.25x grid bonus in g6
fervent turret
doesn't the targeting area being square instead of circular introduce its own weirdness here?
empty cargo
movement is separate from shooting, but yes
if medium see small while moving towards medium it will stop
light verge
fair enough
always saw them as moving because they tend ot kill my smalls fast enough
xd
nova light
which reminds me of a thought I had earlier - what's with the targeting area bei...
because a circle is harder to calculate
empty cargo
"cant move unless no enemy is in range"
alpine hemlock
when no enemy is in range, fires weapon behind itself to move via recoil
empty cargo
🙃
fervent turret
because a circle is harder to calculate
https://godotshaders.com/snippet/circle/ 🤔 what's this about dot product?
alpine hemlock
you could give just give CL fiat overkill protection. gains +1 chain when "hitting" a corpse
empty cargo
make it lose some damage
nova light
why not just a plasma chainer
fervent turret
I think plasma chainers would break UT period
alpine hemlock
my idea doesn't ever do damage to more than one target
fervent turret
you thought MLs were good? ha
alpine hemlock
it only bounces on dead things was the idea
nova light
https://godotshaders.com/snippet/circle/ 🤔 what's this about dot product?
side note: targeting range is not going to change
would mean completely rebuilding fleet from scratch and rebalancing g1-6
that's not happening
nova light
it only bounces on dead things was the idea
already solves the charge laser overkill problem which is the only problem
like... one charge laser could literally oneshot a whole swarmer squad...
alpine hemlock
am i not explaining it well? it would be ok against swarms but not amazing
they still have slow fire rate
nova light
kills swarmer
+1 chain
kill swarmer
+1 chain
kill swarmer
+1 chain
alpine hemlock
my idea was, 4 CL corvettes shoot at 9 swarmers = 4 of them die
it bounces when you hit something already dead
not when you kill something
if you do any damage it doesnt bounce
laser flavoured missile reaquiring, not actual overkill damage overflow
light verge
tl;dr plasma chainers but the condition is it needs to deal overkill damage to transfer
that's not anymuch different from ML retargets
nova light
it bounces when you hit something already dead
oh, if the enemy dies whilst the projectile is in flight it just vanishes from existance
you never hit it
nova light
now that's more interesting
kind of weirdd
what should really happen is charge lasers just swerve midflight to retarget like missiles do
assert dominance
alpine hemlock
curved lasers are anathema
space ricochets make more sense
because science probably
light verge
swarmer 20/100 hp
frigate: 30 damage
cl chainer: 100 damage
frigate hits swarmer, -10/100 hp
in the same time cl chainer shoots a 100 hp projectile. Swarmer is already dead; it theoretically has overkill 100 damage, it moves the projectile to another swarmer with 40/100 hp.
Overkill damage remaining: 60. Moves projectile to another swarmer 80/100, dealing 60 damage.
alpine hemlock
yeah that's what miniboss though i meant too. which i did not, that would be OP lol
nova light
ya that's op
alpine hemlock
you could do a Luna from dota bouncing glaives version of plasma chainer instead
nova light
raisins just phrased it really strangely
alpine hemlock
does way lower damage on each bounce
nova light
what we should really get is ricochet beam laser
light verge
just retarget if target is dead
if target is not dead, hit for full damage and no overkill leak
nova light
what we should really get is ricochet beam laser
fuck swarmers™
alpine hemlock
yes, it's just retargetting. BUT with a flavour explanation
which is essential, obviously
light verge
obviously
fervent turret
swarmers are sort of just bulwark lite though
nova light
target one bulwark, kill everything else
fervent turret
soaks up your hits with the real danger being backline units
nova light
swarmers are sort of just bulwark lite though
funny, despite having opposite stats, they do almost the same thing
except swarmers have more guns and are therefore more dangerous in the long run
alpine hemlock
yeah swarmers are worse because they are good against your fighters and barriers
alpine hemlock
swarmers are acually good to fight though
because they are weak against missiles
which you take because they are good
light verge
true, they have notable weaknesses
alpine hemlock
missiles also soft counter bulwarks, because the bulwark tanks 1-2 missiles and the rest still hit important things
shell jasper
closer still if raisin's useful idea is applied
Which one?
shell jasper
doesn't the targeting area being square instead of circular introduce its own we...
It's because targeting uses Manhattan distance.
Originally it was euclidian. But ships would constantly shoot ships that were "seemingly" further away and like they wouldn't shoot their direct opposite in the start
shell jasper
yeah sure. but detect that and make it bounce off that spot
That's just Missile retargettong
There's also the issue of ut being a like side thing of a single system in game.
I don't want it to be overly complex or take tons of dev time lol
fervent turret
pure CLs
could maybe have gone further if I wasn't memeing on corvette fire rate so hard? 🤔
fleet steppe
Idk I love fire rate
fervent turret
I also took 4 hull things late on the cruiser thinking they'd be the damage wall for the corvettes but then it became evident that I needed to delay them to burn through the mediums 😔
fleet steppe
hmmm do I commit to the beam laser bit
i immediately realize this was a mistake as I'm stuck picking a corvette weapon next
i hate how aggressively beam ships push towards their target instead of keeping distance
beam laser was a throw on a balance run
woeful zephyr
You can reroll
Though there was one run where I blew through all my rerolls trying to get a missile launcher on anything, and failed to get it. 😆
nova light
i hate how aggressively beam ships push towards their target instead of keeping ...
they really should have the same logic as charge lasers, which is to keep distance
alpine hemlock
hm. beam could do more damage at close range? or any weapon. could be another good variable impact mod
empty cargo
0.5x distance 4x damage
nova light
fighter stocks skyrocketing
fleet steppe
You can reroll
But then I wouldn't be able to give beam laser a chance
fleet steppe
hm. beam could do more damage at close range? or any weapon. could be another go...
Or maybe hit maximum damage beam faster, sort of the same
jade zenith
oh yeah about the rerolls
didn't notice them until like a few days ago, so only really had one run with them
is it just a flat 4 rerolls, or do we earn more as the run goes?
fleet steppe
+1 per 5 stages
jade zenith
oooh dope
boreal sun
Any thoughts from people on prioritizing UT Upgrades? Not the ones in the runs themselves but what you allocate the points to. Or just whatever I'm needing/lacking?
jade zenith
I threw 2 runs into each, then prioritize synth > cap battle > mastery > base 6 > spec gain >rest
nova light
since the UT artifaacts fall off pretty quickly it doesn't super matter after the first couple
boreal sun
Cool thanks for the input
fleet steppe
tend to keep them balanced since diminishing returns will make each upgrade less effective than the last, with some slight bias towards any system I'm actively focusing on boosting
fervent turret
I'm messing around with going all-railgun and every time I'm crashing out before 15... not sure what the deal is, maybe I should cheese it on duo type?
I throw MLs on the mediums still
fervent turret
definitely seems like beam ships are moving up way too far after they start firing, frigates especially
I'm positioning like this and my frigates are still charging out in front somehow
😒 and missiles really do need a range nerf smh
3 fights in a row like that
if I'm taking CLs and beams I feel like I should be countering missiles, not getting creamed by them
light verge
why are they hitting from a mile away
fleet steppe
UT is really a different beast from galaxy fights and CL do not hold up nearly the same
tragic
empty cargo
enemy missile have high range
fervent turret
I still maintain CLs aren't really the issue, I'm having an easier time making CLs work than railguns atm
it's a bunch of these other compounding things piled together that makes it difficult
even stage 4 dude ffs
fleet steppe
CL not having a second good laser weapon to pick up the slack really hurts
rapid beam isn't bad but it's a massive penalty to take basic beam
fervent turret
I think rapid beam sucks
fleet steppe
it feels way better than split beam
fervent turret
I disagree
fleet steppe
it feels way better than split beam
opinion based on a single mono test
fervent turret
split beam gives you range so your ship slows down sooner and you get multi target which helps address its main pain point in UT which is being outnumbered
mono testing I feel skews results weirdly
even duo feels like cheesing when I do it
fleet steppe
the kill times on split beam just felt way too slow, rapid beam was killing more ships faster
fervent turret
I can see that on fighters perhaps
fleet steppe
mono testing I feel skews results weirdly
it's certainly not representative of the average run but does let me see when it can "do its best"
still eat a lot of damage while running basic beam and limping along for the upgrade
the max dps is so promising but the ramp time of 6.5 is brutal
fervent turret
it is but look how much lower the damage starts out on rapid
fleet steppe
split beam already choking on stage 7
light verge
enemy missile have high range
yeah but it feels wrong
fleet steppe
maybe the range means more in a mixed ship environment
empty cargo
well they look like snipers
fervent turret
yeah but it feels wrong
galaxy the missile snipers feel OK because you don't get outnumbered and can overdeploy
their strengths heavily compound on the disadvantages we have in UT
I'm starting to wonder about the importance of rolling second weapon upgrade strength being a reason why rolling duo/mono feels so much stronger
it takes so much longer to reach second upgrade especially with 'balanced'
like balanced actually feels like a debuff
which I would guess is not Sylv's intent?
fleet steppe
balanced is a debuff
hard focusing one ship is good and balance strictly forbids that
fervent turret
-# I don't think I'll be taking this one
fleet steppe
was curious on how much the dps difference mattered and made up a quick chart for comparison
in terms of raw damage split beam will do more against 2 targets up until ~2.5 seconds, then rapid beam pulls ahead for around 1 second, then split beam pulls ahead again
"seconds" but I think Galaxy/UT/Fleet now runs at 2x speed by default? so I don't know if that's really 1.25s/0.5s in real time
but is that really a noticable increase in damage dealt? one damage upgrade for comparison
also chart is not continuous and does intervals of 0.2s because I don't want to have a million values and have the graph be terrible to read unless you super zoom in
fervent turret
I mean to me that's more proof that mediums =/= 2 smalls
having another moment here
fleet steppe
amusingly, in terms of total damage dealt, it seems like basic beam beats out split beam's two target damage over 6.5 seconds
fleet steppe
having another moment here
could try sacrificing the corvettes and throwing them in B5 to pull the bottom ships away for a while, but rough layout
fervent turret
this worked
but I feel like having to manipulate the target priority to succeed still stands as in favor of my point with that 2:1 ratio being off-kilter
fleet steppe
but is that *really* a noticable increase in damage dealt? one damage upgrade fo...
the significantly increased fire rate meant a lot to me in the solo tests, with the range feeling rather moot with no sacrificial ships to send in front of it and use the low speed, so I do think it's a mono bias issue
also thinking on the times- the beam isn't truly continuous either and would be based on tick rate, which makes the chart messier but it is what it is
fervent turret
was curious on how much the dps difference mattered and made up a quick chart fo...
this kinda looks similar to the data points for the rapid ramp vs mass focuser comparison (idk where that is anymore)
fleet steppe
unfortunately I really do not like the odds of giving split beam a chance in "normal" runs because there's that many extra ships with weapon mods to roll and being stuck with basic beam for two weapon upgrade instances sounds like a death sentence
fervent turret
I don't think I've gotten much further than 12-14 messing with split beams
fleet steppe
I made the mistake of doing a balance run and trying to use beam laser and I crashed and burned on either stage 10 or 11 because I couldn't upgrade the weapon mod twice due to balance
i had missiles offered but I wanted to take a chance
fervent turret
dumb idea maybe... take beams and then focus nothing but hull upgrades to try to live long enough for the ramp to kick in?
fleet steppe
I guess hull is sort of a damage upgrade in that sense but... guh
tank cruiser would help with longevity... but -1 ship to target with
fervent turret
lemme finish my current thought of 'ML smalls railgun mediums' and I'll trial it for the heck of it lol
fervent turret
this is going way better than I thought it would have any right to
the hull bomb is actually hilarious because it instantly counters the snipers left at the end
actually not sure if I'm just being carried by hull bomb at this point
first loss lol
what is happening
I think maybe taking mono-HC shot myself in the foot here
fell over here
@fleet steppe thoughts? I feel like I should try again but avoiding single-HC upgrade, and then another one but without doing hull on HC
maybe I'll resort to mono for this, getting it to roll Cr + HC again is proving annoying
looks like the game is on board with the plan here 😂
hmmm... I'll risk it this time
buyer's remorse
alpine hemlock
this was monocruiser? i dont think you lost from not splitting your damage enough
fervent turret
surprisingly decent result with HC here, avoided single-cruiser deliberately, without the bomb it felt like bulwark/snipers were an issue again, weirdly never got offered the unique HC AOE thing, 2 of my grid buffs are the 5x damage 2x range things and I think those were detrimental
alpine hemlock
i dont find grid buffs that good
fervent turret
I still have no idea if burst fire is helping beams much
Sylv says it does but I never feel the difference
alpine hemlock
unless it's in column A i never take them
i wanted to try to test something with HC beam and died on stage 3
beam sucks, i dont need more info lol
fervent turret
so dispersion pulse sucks for this strat I think
fervent turret
i wanted to try to test something with HC beam and died on stage 3
all hull upgrades lol
alpine hemlock
so dispersion pulse sucks for this strat I think
well yeah, dispersion pulse is swarm aoe
when your team is all heavy cruisers you face tons of mediums
nova light
"seconds" but I think Galaxy/UT/Fleet now runs at 2x speed by default? so I don'...
the rejiggering for that mainly meant changing the numbers that are displayed as well
fervent turret
what about this?
think this is about the limit of this idea but look, hull & beam doesn't suck you guys 😂
nova light
I think how burst fire works is that it is a multiplicative multiplier to damage, which is the same as the normal burst fire penalty (0.7x) and then multiplies it by an additive multiplier which is essentially equal to what the burst amount would be
so basically the relative dps increase is the same as for other weapons
fervent turret
taking beam on Cr/HC on 3 without hull sure does seem to be guaranteed base damage 🤔
was going to try doing fire-rate focus but I guess I gotta start at least with some hull picks first?
fervent turret
well, this is the end result of focus-fire-rate, had to stick with hull upgrades first few stages to not take damage
felt kind of like I hit a point of diminished return somewhere around 2.0 fire rate?
nova light
as one does
fire rate is also a lot worse for beam anyways since it doesn't do jackshit for tickrate
fervent turret
it seems to affect the time to acquire target? and refire on new ones
alpine hemlock
why does everything about beam have to be downsides
alpine hemlock
it seems to affect the time to acquire target? and refire on new ones
yeah that's what it does. time between shots
fervent turret
I'll try to aim for... 1.75 fire rate and go in on damage then 🤔
wild timber
fire rate is also a lot worse for beam anyways since it doesn't do jackshit for ...
do you mean grid firerate or upgrade firerate
because both are supposed to affect tickrate now i think
idk i barely paid attention to the patch note because i always skip beam anyway
fervent turret
can burst fire 4 just like... be removed as an option? 🫤
alpine hemlock
fire rate upgrade mod does do tick rate
fervent turret
hit the 1.75x fire rate goal on 15, this is stage 17, gonna see how all damage goes from here
made it to 30 🤔
hull-first frigate beams on 3 is pretty poo 😂
fervent turret
this feels like a matchup error on my part, goal was 1.5x fire rate & then even split hull/damage
alpine hemlock
made it to 30 🤔
this ratio of damage to firerate is pretty close to "max dps"
which would have been my first guess
fervent turret
hmm
well I think the conclusion to my earlier "bad idea" hypothesis is that going hull-heavy early tends to work well with early beam but it doesn't particularly matter for endgame
nova light
idk i barely paid attention to the patch note because i always skip beam anyway
there's a new patch ?
nova light
fire rate upgrade mod does do tick rate
oh it does now
fervent turret
this is not how poorly I expected fleet teleport + split beam to go
still made it to stage 32
but I feel like this just because barrier fighter spam OP and working in spite of the fleet teleport
last one and I'll quit spamming the channel (I'll make a thread or something if I start up again) - rapid beam attempt, fell over really hard here, the target swapping is much better but the damage just feels worse
fervent turret
kinda feels like the single-cruiser/HC is a debuff in most circumstances
alpine hemlock
i think that's specifically in mono
armor is good against lots of small hits
you fill the battlespace with 2 point ships, the enemy has to match with thier two point ships
which do big hits
in that screenshot, the enemy fleet is 83% heavies as points (20 points of heavies and 4 points of smalls)
and what IS good against big hits? barriers and bodies
non-armor cruisers have double of each
fleet steppe
you might be able to make mono Tank cruiser work if you have missiles to spread damage but yeah the loss in target amount is really bad
alpine hemlock
i honestly dont think our offense is much of a problem, for the basically same reason
the enemy is all mediums, they have lots of health, so hitting slower but harder is not that wasteful
woeful zephyr
balance
I'm getting hard and more choices
either way, it's a good day to use banked
shell jasper
what about this?
it doesnt show on the tooltip properly, never has
fervent turret
but what actually happens when I take it multiple times?
it doesn't just double the beam damage every time surely?
shell jasper
burst fire = damage
all the same calcs apply
so it gets the damage reduction and the burst fire 2x
so its uh, 1.6x damage or wahtever I forgot waht the damge reduction is on that
fervent turret
so it gets the damage reduction and the burst fire 2x
so the damage reduction stacks every time you take it?
#1335902304959987733 message I get what mini said it was here but I'm still lost on whether it's detrimental after the second time, like the statcard says, or not
vital oar
this Hard+More choices hangs for a few days it seems doesnt it?
whet the hell will it reset?
or maybe thats just a long day 24 hours...
deep granite
when do the modifiers cycle?
vital oar
exactly
wild timber
nova light
UTC 00:00
vital oar
how long till utc 0?
wild timber
just google midnight utc
urban bridge
lots of rares today
fervent turret
kind of a screw-around run...
do you think maybe some of the problem is with non-mono/duo, your fleet just fails to scale properly because there's not enough upgrades for the different ships you have?
I'm wondering if that's contributing to my sensation of just being outnumbered constantly when playing 'normally'
urban bridge
I think level 10 is the intended clear, anything beyond that should be seen as your fleet being op
but yeah, mono/duo let you concentrate upgrades to great effect
fervent turret
compared to how I was getting all those beam-hull mono-ship limit tests to around 25-30, I feel rather differently
urban bridge
are you getting other mods to 25-30?
'cause I think you're just supporting my point 😛
fervent turret
I did a few different ideas on mono that got to 25-30 yeah
fervent turret
oh I thought ship weapon/choice stuff, sorry
urban bridge
more often on the lower end
fervent turret
13-20 sound like the 'more usual' thing to me yeah
I wanna try to identify what the gap is, because based on my spam the other day... it's not necessarily a beam/CL issue
it's sort of like maybe there's a methodology to be had... early hull upgrades for HC/cruiser, damage for fighter, +1 range every 5-6 stages, things like that
certain amounts of fire rate to get
alpine hemlock
what were you comparing beam to though
how high did you get when you tried something similar with missiles or CL
your experiments require a control
fervent turret
well, I haven't done that yet lol
I can tell you when I tried rapid beam instead of split it was always worse
always fell over right around 25 instead of 30ish
I definitely am being a bit lax on testing methodology
fighters I should give another go with beams without the fleet teleport
cruisers worked well, frigates I gave up on
light verge
kind of a screw-around run...
do you think maybe some of the problem is with n...
yes
but that's also not an issue inherent to this game alone
every game like slay the spire has this issue
in those games you are constantly awarded with new cards
they will populate your deck
yes, your deck sucks ass at the beginning but having more cards makes your pulls more unreliable especially since they tend not to have an upper limit
further compounding the issue is the ability to upgrade those cards one by one and the ability to remove cards being seldom available.
this game TRIES to make up for it by making it so that entire ship classes get the same upgrade
all it does is making your clear to sector 10 more consistent
fervent turret
yeah I mean I guess it is kinda like deck games where it's detrimental to have cards not part of your core rotation...
I feel baited, the game put base barrier behind this comp...
just ultra hard countering fighter spam lol
idk what I'm proving with this one... thought was simply 'let's try hull-first ML'
light verge
i have mixed feelings with UT
for one i like it because it's just 10 rounds
but it's a little bit dry
...still better than how I actually like StS
...or should I say
how I don't like it
and its clones
fervent turret
played this one kinda loose/by feel but still mainly hull-first CL...
that much hull and still getting one-shot by the bulwarks is gross
alpine hemlock
the "deck size" variable is important but also kind of a nonissue in UT
duo is a treat
mono is a cheat mode for testing
I feel like UT is missing builds, synergies, risk-reward
there's no mod i take speculatively because it could work out if i "get there"
there's no "get there", just +dps
nova light
yes, your deck sucks ass at the beginning but having more cards makes your pulls...
the difference between this and sts is that there are card draw cards
I like sts....
nova light
I feel like UT is missing builds, synergies, risk-reward
definite lack of any synergies you can build
nova light
things are really just good standalone or bad
there's kind of synergy between hull bomb and health but that's basically it....
alpine hemlock
i wanted to describe a corvette "build" in UT I basically cant
did i get the rare or burst
ok
but that's not a choice or a tradeoff
i just got it or i didnt
nova light
funnily armor tank is kind of anti-synergistic with hull bomb because it's half targets and same total hp therefore less flexible overal
alpine hemlock
ok sure if i DID get burst corvettes then i draft +1 corvette on ship selection
which technically counts
but is weaksauce
hull bomb is a legit example
i want more
of those. but also hull bomb is also not a great example in that i dont think having hull bomb makes taking HP mods worth it
nova light
the idea behind hull bomb was to make HP modes not completely unpickable in literally every situation
so if you saw hull bomb early then leaning into health would actually be somewhat viable
fleet steppe
but that's not a choice or a tradeoff
It would be neat if there were something like Chained or Linked upgrades, something like:
Chained Upgrade
Corvette ⛓️ ⛓️ ⛓️ Fire Rate
(Stats as normal)
Picking the Chained upgrade would mean the next time you get an upgrade choice, Corvette would be an option. Since there are three chains, this would continue for 2 more upgrades after this one, so you know you can be offered three Corvette upgrades in a row
You could also have something like
Fighter Damage ⛓️ ⛓️
Which means you'll have damage be an option on the next upgrade, though not necessarily for fighter, or
Cruiser ⛓️ ⛓️ Hull ⛓️ ⛓️
A double chain which means the same upgrade would be offered
If you break the chain midway then you don't see any remaining guaranteed upgrades from that chain
Might encourage rerolling early to find a chain to build off of and focus a "build" around
Could possibly have Chained Enemies (not the entire enemy fleet, just some units)
fervent turret
would it oversimplify things to make generic damage/rof/range/hull upgrades be fleet-wide instead of ship-specific?
cuz I reckon that'd solve the gap between quad & mono
fleet steppe
It would also make trying to have a "build" be harder
Otoh it might be interesting to have fleet wide upgrades be paired against zone upgrades and have them be similar rarity
shell jasper
gap in quad and mono is fine imo
non ship specific basic upgrades makes for like actual 0 choice situations 99% of time I feel like
alpine hemlock
It would be neat if there were something like Chained or Linked upgrades, someth...
ways to lower draft variance is a source of power and agency
and can be fun
but is basically the opposite of what i want
more control over the draft makes it easier to force a generic best build
if i got my wish of multiple builds existing
shell jasper
I think the thing you mentioned a while ago is a good solution... uh, whatever it was ><
alpine hemlock
i think it was on hit effect mods. simplest being +x raw damage and -x damage, +something
because they care about fire rate so they are good on fast or slow weapons respectively
but you can do synergy mods in pretty blunt ways that still end up cool
mods with an arbitrary tag that are better with each other
the lore flavor can be anything. in an rpg magic system it might be elements like "fire" or "poison"
we already have kinetic or laser but you could do like "Xyloquant mods" or whatever
alpine hemlock
Xyloquant Fire Rate: +4% fire rate, plus an additional +1% per Xyloquant mod
oh there was the HP mod "solution"
which was that HP sucks so bundle it with other stuff
shell jasper
it was something that added a tiny bit of synergy stuff for builds but like... nothing new I have to do haha
alpine hemlock
are you sure it wasnt the mods that care about fire rate?
simple examples of what i mean: on hit effects, absolute damage modifiers. these mods care about relative fire rate, and output different damage with different weapons.
- +5 damage per projectile (relatively bad on CL)
- -5 damage per projectile +50% fire rate (relatively good on CL)
err, i proposed a nerf to missiles to make them more polarized against enemies instead of generically ok or great
make missiles do more damage, remove ability to hit the same target more than once
but idk if that's actually more fun lol
I think that's all my recent UT posts, so if those weren't it i dont think it was me
shell jasper
huh maybe it was the per projectile
also im looking at the values on stuff, the mini rail gun in ut seems weird
is it super good or anything?
specificall, the fighter CL and mini rail gun have same fire rate for some reason
or well not same, just ery close, 1.2 for mini rail gun, 1.0 for cl
maybe I shouild just put fighter CL in line with normal CL
for beam im upping damage slightly, upping base fire rate so it switches faster and increasing (as in stay further away) closing distance
fervent turret
I might do some mono rail tomfoolery but my impression is it's not great, might be because it's in an unhappy spot of not doing enough damage and also not enough fire rate to be good vs smalls
fleet steppe
rail gun seems like a neutral sidegrade, better than charge lasers, worse than missiles
bit better than neutral because it's armor typed which helps as filler for converting fleet to anti armor prioritizing missiles, it's fine to pick on "sacrificial units" that don't get many upgrades since the anti-armor fleet focus helps the most
wild timber
or well not same, just ery close, 1.2 for mini rail gun, 1.0 for cl
that's why fighter cl has been surprisingly decent ime
light verge
is it super good or anything?
base railgun is just an upgrade for default laser
there is otherwise no other reason to pick any other railgun other than versatile after that
fervent turret
definitely think that range decreases for rapid is a detriment in excess of any benefit
shell jasper
rail gun seems like a neutral sidegrade, better than charge lasers, worse than m...
its explicitlly more dps and faster fire rate I dunno about side grade?
wild timber
rail gun firerate is very nice if you're not getting good missile picks for swarmers
shell jasper
hmmm why is versatile a pick? 10% damage and range doesnt seem better then 1.5x fire rate and 0.75x damage of the rapid one if everyone values fire rate so highly
light verge
hmmm why is versatile a pick? 10% damage and range doesnt seem better then 1.5x...
2x shield and armor damage
no need to care about bad matchups
wild timber
it's not fire rate on its own, it's ability to get kills per second
light verge
since you don't get to control spawns in your favor
wild timber
which rapid is worse at because of the big range hit
light verge
railgun on shields is giga shit
shell jasper
what big range hit?
wild timber
well, relatively speaking compared to versatile
any firerate between 1.2-1.5 is like mostly acceptable anyway, it's just dropping super low with charge or beam that's bad
light verge
versatile gives no fire-rate increase; rapid gives 50% more
Versatile does give a reasonable range increase which compounds on fighters
wild timber
part of the reason why in regular fleet, mini railgun was better than charge laser and had to get nerfed like 4 times in a row
light verge
plus the ever-useful shield damage x2
wild timber
was because it did much more damage in 1 hit on fighters
which meant fighters could "bank" damage while moving towards the next enemy even while it was out of range
shell jasper
I guess 10% range is 3 range upgrades worth
wild timber
excessive firerate on low range is also kind of self-defeating
shell jasper
but 50% fire rate is 10 fire rate upgrdes worth ><
wild timber
well rapid also loses like
5 upgrades of damage
so it kind of cancels out to a large extent
shell jasper
75% is only 2-3 upgrades of daamge
wild timber
it's not anywhere near 10 firerate upgrades of net gain in practice
1 damage is usually worth 2 firerate anyway
fervent turret
I think range makes a difference... at least it seems to have during my beam spam - but only up to about 6 or 7 range buffs; just however much is enough to enable all ships shooting as much as possible & not taking forever to hit missile/snipers
light verge
a dead enemy deals no damage
increasing survivability
i prefer versatiles because of that since it kills shields quicker and doesn't become useless over shield mediums
shell jasper
"equalibirium" on them is rapid + 3 range and 4 damage vs versatile with 10 fire rate
and then whatever shield damage is worth which with the balancing it does im not 100% sure what that is
maybe the shield damage is just way better then I gave it value wise in balancing those
wild timber
shield is like
light verge
the increased versatile range also allows one more hit
wild timber
mostly bad rng protection
shell jasper
the increased versatile range also allows one more hit
this doesnt matter, its covered in the equalibrium thing. rapid is "more powerful" sooner aside from whatever the shield damage does
fervent turret
railguns skew the enemy spawn towards kinetic too
so the shield thing is kinda whatever
wild timber
this doesnt matter, its covered in the equalibrium thing. rapid is "more powerf...
the 1 hit is what i mean though
shell jasper
now if you get it on turn 6 or whatever, you dont have enougnh for equilibrium and f course cant always get the exact ones you want
but just in general
wild timber
it does matter a lot for galaxy
shell jasper
oh galaxy values are all different and the point of weapons is different there too
shell jasper
you guys cant go from "fire rate is all that matters CL sucks" to "fire rate sounds good only in a vacuum" T.T
wild timber
it's more like every stat has thresholds
going below "good enough" makes it immediately garbage
every charge laser is below "good enough" firerate for general use
every mini railgun is already good enough firerate, and it's range that becomes the limitation for their consistency
light verge
i mean that's very reductive sylv
the reason why cl sucks is because it's slow and allows way more hits from enemies
you get like 1 hit before 3/4ths of a squad dies
fervent turret
-# maybe Sylv needs to take a second vacation and play nothing but UT for a week 😂
wild timber
the most accurate summation would probably be more like it's about maximizing the alpha strike capability
light verge
^
it's all about the alpha strike
again
dead enemies don't contribute to their dps
shell jasper
cl has great alpha strike? unless im misunderstanding alpha strike