LGBTQ+ Is BS or no?

[wintry zodiac]

I personally do not like LGBTQ+ or anything that has to do with it, most of what they are doing is BS and if you are gay or whatever imo you should keep it to yourself. But I would like to see what other stances are on this.

[radiant trout]

most of what they are doing is BS
Could you elaborate?

And why does it matter to you what someone else's sexuality is?

[wintry zodiac]

because if i mis identify them they get all mad and shit and its mad annoying, also spreading the LGBTQ flag and any other flag is annoying to me otherwise I could care less, them going everywhere and making everything "pride" based is very annoying and I dont think I or MANY other people like seeing lgbtq and other flags everywhere saying you can have sex with whomever you like

[wintry zodiac]

The teaching of who you can have sex with to little kids for example

[dapper bay]

I can already feel this post will not be about learning but just about debate…

My opinion :
Who cares? You do you, I do me. As long as you don’t annoy me with it, idc.

[near ember]

Sure sounds like you just don't like that queer people exist

[wintry zodiac]

well I mean i could care less if ur queer at home, im totally against sexuality in public

[wintry zodiac]

So children being taught who they can have sex with is fine and like they want to learn that

[near ember]

Because you don't like that they exist?

[wintry zodiac]

I dont care if they exist, infact I dont care to some extent if they are in public but if ur kissing and doing weird shit outside as well as teaching everyone things they dont want to learn or dont need to know then it gets annoying

[near ember]

Straight couples kiss in public all the time

What makes queer people different?

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah and I am to some extent against that, I mean you wouldnt wanna see ranomd people kiss in the restaurant for example do you?

[near ember]

Explain the issue with it please

[wintry zodiac]

Which

No but my main problem is kids being taught this shit even when their parents dont want it

[near ember]

Getting taught that you can be gay?

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah they dont need to know that at the age of 6 do they?

[near ember]

They know that straight people exist though

And that girls and boys exist

What's the problem with learning that gay people exist?

[wintry zodiac]

obviously, but thats not the point, you think its a bit too early about learning that you can also change genders?

I mean theres kids getting gender surgeries and regretting it now

How come you dont need 18 age restriction to do it atleast like for tattoos

[near ember]

Why is it too early?

Toddlers see other toddlers naked at the beach for example

That's normal

[dapper bay]

Thats fine. Who can know what children want to learn? Most would rather learn how to have fun instead of the "useful" stuff school teaches, yet we don't care about what they want

[wintry zodiac]

thats not really relevant also its not common, because toddlers in general are protected from any kind of pornogrophy

you dont see naked toddlers around usually

dont you think children getting gender surgeries is morally wrong?

[near ember]

Sounds like you don't go to public places where toddlers exist

[wintry zodiac]

believe me I do, but you dont see naked toddlers around and thats weird that you do I think

[near ember]

Let's stop talking about naked toddlers

I'm good

[dapper bay]

how?

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah

[dapper bay]

porn is so accessible, a 4 year old could watch some lmao

[wintry zodiac]

But they are typically protected from it dont you think? I mean you see the 18+ signs thats something and some sites only work if you have an ID of some sort

they are generally not meant to watch it and its clear

[dapper bay]

you dont seem to watch porn 😂

you don't need any ID

[wintry zodiac]

I know that you can access porn websites but they arent meant for toddlers

without an ID ^

but

[near ember]

Gay people kissing does not equal to uncensored pornohgraphy. It's wild to compare

[dapper bay]

you just say u are 18 and then you're good to go

[wintry zodiac]

they arent meant for children and its clear

Thats the point im trying to make

I think the idea of allowing children to change genders is also pretty bad and stupid

[near ember]

If gay people and straight people are equal, then why is talking about straight relationship normal, but talking about a gay relationship is indoctrinating?

[dapper bay]

depends, but I also agree a bit

most children don't know what they want and the consequences that follows their actions

[wintry zodiac]

it doesnt depend, you wouldnt want a 13 year old switching genders and getting a surgery, because its pretty much irreversible

[wintry zodiac]

yeah

[dapper bay]

wait until they get to like 16 or older and then, well, it's their choice to make

[near ember]

13 year olds can't agree to gender care without parental consent, in any country

And even than it's usually something temporary like puberty blockers

Rather than surgery

[wintry zodiac]

The school doesnt really teach much about straight relation ships other than sex ed but on sex ed they also teach about gay sex and what not, other than that they dont teach about it

[near ember]

Because you see straight relationships everywhere

They don't need to teach

Love between a man and a woman is one of the most common topics

In general

[wintry zodiac]

Public affection is also weird and MANY upon MANY people do not want to see gay flags everywhere do they?

[near ember]

A ton of movies have a romantic relationship between a man and a woman

I bet a majority

But you don't complain about that

[wintry zodiac]

Also the amount of lenience and biasm that goes towards lgbtq people is crazy, example being a gay trans or something person raping women or going into women's bathroom for bad purposes but they cant do anything about it since its considered homophobic or transphobic

[wintry zodiac]

i dont complain about movies who have gay sex as well do I?

[near ember]

But you complain about flags

What makes them different?

[wintry zodiac]

What different?

[near ember]

Here's the straight flag

You've seen it now

I guess straight people are BS

[wintry zodiac]

I dont like the flags in general

[near ember]

You don't like the straight flag?

Heterophobic

[wintry zodiac]

and its not like you see it everywhere do you?

[near ember]

I don't wanna talk with a heterophobe

[wintry zodiac]

Im actually kinda confused now, tf are u talking about now

whats the point ur trying to make

[near ember]

You prove with your beliefs that queer culture needs to be celebrated. They are hated in some circles, straight people aren't. Why are they hated?

[wintry zodiac]

I dont think queer culture needs to be celebrated?

[near ember]

I know

You don't think that because you think queer people shouldn't exist

If you were consistent with your beliefs you'd say that queer people should be sent to camps

[still night]

Its a social construct that I don't care about and I don't want to waste time and energy thinking about it - People may think whatever they want, just don't bother me with it

[wintry zodiac]

Here are some beliefs that I currently support:

LGBTQ/Anything related shouldnt be taught in school or at the very least untill later in the chain
The gender change shouldnt be allowed for people under 21 (or 18 at the very least)
Public affection is not something I support at all, wether its straight people or queer or gay it doesnt matter, but queer or gay people make it more vibrant and more important to them
I dont care about what pronouns you are and I shouldnt be convicted of hatred for that
I believe that LGBTQ people shouldnt have more protection than normal people in the law, there have been many cases where LGBTQ people are protected because if they were convicted of anything then it is considered as homophobic or transphobic or what not

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah thats kinda what I believe

[still night]

In terms of what's being taught in education is a whole different topic - I agree that this topic isn't a topic for schools and education

[near ember]

Queer people are hated for their sexuality. Any sort of bias towards them is not because they're so cool, it's because discrimination needs to be stopped

If you think that queer people in general are more favored by the law than straight people, then frankly you're delusional

There are so many examples that it's pointless to list them

[wintry zodiac]

So a transgender raping women being protected and not sentenced to anything because hes part of the lgbtq is fine?

[near ember]

I don't care about one person, legal systems handle many cases

straight people get away with lots of shit

[wintry zodiac]

Thats just ignorance isnt it? You ignore the fact that lgbtq people are now getting more protection for things that some of them have done?

[near ember]

Prove it

[wintry zodiac]

A good example In 2016 North Carolina passed House Bill 2 (HB2), transgender critics wanted the law abolished or something which it did. However its obvious that you dont want biological Men going into Women's bathroom for obvious reasons, and still they are

Infact I believe there may have been already a few cases of Men being suspicious or doing something in womens bathroom im not 100% sure

I think I got the story wrong of a transgender male raping someone and getting protection and that was an exaggeration however a rapist was about to be sent into a womens prison instead of mens which caused public concerns and therefore they were forced to send that transgender to a mens prison instead

[near ember]

Screenshot from the wikipedia page - this bill got criticized by queer activists for disallowing trans people who never went through sex surgery to enter bathrooms of their gender

You're making my point for me

[wintry zodiac]

Not just bathrooms however, also locker rooms

[wintry zodiac]

What point

[near ember]

This bill was against trans people, not for

This is not bias for them

So your example for bias towards lgbt people is a law that was explicitly against trans people

[wintry zodiac]

However they repealed that bill for them because of trans people

and now men with cocks can do whatever they want in a womens bathroom as long as they identify as a women

[near ember]

Because it's not constitutional in the united states for them to regulate access to bathrooms like that

Most republicans voted aye on the bill that repealed it

house bill 142

[south jungle]

Were these men with cocks held back by the sign on the door previously?

[near ember]

And to be clear, it is obviously unlawful for a person to expose themselves in public, no matter which bathroom. It's called public indecency.

[wintry zodiac]

Back then if they entered they would get arrested, now theres no point in the sign

[near ember]

Give 1 example of a person getting arrested for that

Specifically for entering the opposite gendered bathroom

Not for rape or sexual assault or public indecency

Those are unrelated crimes

A person can already do that

[wintry zodiac]

In Virginia, Richard Rodriguez was arrested for peeping on and filming women and a child in a women's restroom while dressed in drag​ https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo

[near ember]

That's already a crime in the united states

It's not like house bill 2 changed that

[south jungle]

Is the problem with "men with cocks" doing whatever they want in the women's bathroom? Or is it with them doing whatever they want in the women's bathroom? Last I checked whatever illicit activity you're thinking up is still illegal. Would it be better from the victim's perspective if a (biological) woman was doing the crime?

[wintry zodiac]

I dont think you understood it the right way rather, I meant theres a lot less restrictions for men going to womens bathrooms rather than quite literally them being able to do anything they want

[near ember]

Why does it matter if a man who identifies as a woman, goes into the bathroom, pees, and leaves?

Is this a big enough issue that we should make it unlawful?

If they do something else, then that's already a crime

[wintry zodiac]

Why do we have division of the 2 gender bathrooms anyway then?

[near ember]

Some places don't

It's not necessary

[wintry zodiac]

No but why do we at this point?

Might as well remove it now

[near ember]

These things are already a crime, and gendered bathrooms don't have to be removed because most people don't randomly go into the opposite gender bathroom

[wintry zodiac]

No but if a man now can "identify" or simply say hes a woman and go to a womans bathroom, then theres simply no reason to have division of bathrooms now

[south jungle]

"Scholars" lmao I would hate to be known as the public toilet historian

[near ember]

ok

[near ember]

so what's the issue

some places don't

we can stop having them

[wintry zodiac]

Scholars on history and just in general not just public toilet historian

[wintry zodiac]

Women are less protected now because the more men go in there the more unsafe it becomes, back then if you saw a man go into a womens bathroom you immediately knew he either really wanted to go, didnt see the sign or was up to no good

[near ember]

"was up to no good"

lol

but they could still go

interesting

[wintry zodiac]

I mean why else would a man want to go to a womens bathroom

[near ember]

maybe they really wanted to go

[wintry zodiac]

not really, because then someone would usually stop the man

[near ember]

or didnt see the sign

[wintry zodiac]

exactly what i said

LOL

[near ember]

yep

[wintry zodiac]

I said theres 3 options

[near ember]

those are the other reasons

[wintry zodiac]

and typically you would see a mans bathroom beside a womans bathroom

so...

[near ember]

you provided the alternate options yourself

and then say they dont have other reasons

that doesnt make any sense

are you aware of what you write

[south jungle]

The solution is easy: we put men in the women's bathroom to stop men from entering the women's bathroom

[near ember]

^

[wintry zodiac]

However then it was much more safe, as well as you would literally have mens bathroom next to womens so you would typically not see someone really wanting to go, also its rare for men to mistake the sign or something so in general you would know the man is up to something bad

[near ember]

right but they could have alternate reasons

but I guess we have to make it illegal

they might be up to something bad

almost like they could do it anyway in other places

[wintry zodiac]

Give me some

[near ember]

You provided them

[wintry zodiac]

Are you ok?

[near ember]

Are you ok?

Read what you wrote

You gave examples of alternate reasons

And now ask me to provide examples

[wintry zodiac]

Im clearly referring to other alternate reasons, you said alternate reasons responding to my text meaning that there are other reasons apart from the 3 I listed 2 of which are VERY rare and pretty much never happen.

[near ember]

But they do happen

So

And people can still rape others in places that are not bathrooms

But I guess we have to make entrance to bathrooms illegal

[wintry zodiac]

maybe 1/10 times

[near ember]

They happen

[wintry zodiac]

I couldnt remember the last time I accidentaly entered a womens bathroom

[wintry zodiac]

and I dont blame them for it however they would just get told to get out and thats it, or they immediately recognize that they are in the wrong bathroom

but now men can pee in the toilet and set up cameras (obviously still illegal) but its much much more common or going to be much more common from now

and thats the huge issue

[near ember]

sounds like you're making up statistics

give proof

[south jungle]

If I had to guess, the #1 reason that men use the women's bathroom is "I work here and was told to clean it". #2 is "the men's room was full/broken." This idea that there's some epidemic of perverts entering the women's bathroom to rape/harass them now that they have a justification ("I'm trans") is ridiculous. I have a hard time thinking of a situation when I'd look at an individual walking into the women's bathroom and think "damn they're going in there to harass somebody, I should stop them."

[radiant trout]

Is it more common or are you just making that up?

[wintry zodiac]

I dont have data to back it up but using simple logic you could only assume that it would get more common

[near ember]

simple logic

lol

[radiant trout]

So you are making it up

Good you made that clear

[wintry zodiac]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo at the very least here, and no I mean its not like trans people entering womens bathrooms is gonna decrease it, it can only increase it so no im not making it up it is SIMPLE logic knowing that it cant decrease therefore it will increase

[near ember]

The fact is that there are plenty of places with one bathroom, rather than gender exclusive, and there's no proof that more cases of sexual crimes occur

[wintry zodiac]

What is the point you are trying to make? With the addition of many males having the ability to enter womens bathroom you think the sexual crimes wont increase at all?

I mean its CRAZY biasm if you think it wont increase

[near ember]

It's crazy bias to assume it will increase

Provide proof

Otherwise you're just saying stuff

[south jungle]

The number of perverts does not logically increase with the policy change. The number of perverts using some perceived new right to enter whichever bathroom as a defense for being a pervert may increase. Does a criminal's (self-stated) gender change whether or not they committed a crime?

[wintry zodiac]

its not?

its not that it will decrease, I dont have statistics on me rn but it can only increase therefore it may as more men enter

[frigid flume]

It used to in movies. I think if a gay couple kissed it was automatically 13+. Or maybe ever 18+ I think they changed it

Just an interjection about gay people being prosecuted

[radiant trout]

So you are against proper education for children?

So far I've really only heard homophobic arguments or made-up statistics to support your point.

If you don't want to be seen as a homophobe, you should at least try to give some examples that are not homophobic.

''People go on the streets and wave flags''. Okay, I have plenty of examples of american patriots that do the same. So now they are bullshit to?

Just give us some actual argument to support your idea instead of hating on gay people for their sexuality

[wintry zodiac]

"proper" 😂 its education that they clearly dont need and the parents dont want them to know all about this shit at the age of 7 or some shit

[radiant trout]

Explain what you mean with ''this shit''

what are they getting taught that you disagree with

Also as a former teacher I would like to make you aware that parents are really bad at knowing what their children need to learn

Parents often don't know anything about education

Often don't know anything about didactics

Don't know anything about how children grow and learn

So to act like a parent knows better than say a professional in their work is complete bullshit

When you're sick, do you let your parents determine what treatment you get instead of a medical doctor?

When you need a loan, do your parents determine the conditions of it instead of the bank?

SO why in education do parents somehow feel entitled to determine what the curriculum is instead of professionals

[wintry zodiac]

That you can change your gender at any age and what not, dont you think they shouldnt be taught this? I mean if you think they should be allowed then theres no point arguing here because I really cant change your mind

[radiant trout]

And this is taught to children what age according to you?

No im saying that you are making shit up in order to support some statement with a fake argument

There is no such thing as young children getting taught you can change your gender at any time

[wintry zodiac]

They start being taught as early as 5

[radiant trout]

Do you even know what 5-7 year olds learn about sexuality?

How a curriculum for those ages look like?

What is actually in the textbooks about it?

NO YOU DONT

[wintry zodiac]

I think parents should have a right to dictitate what they want their child taught, and many dont want their child switching their gender at 5

[radiant trout]

you are just literally parroting some right-wing bullshit people that claim these stuff are happening without them actually being real

[radiant trout]

Well luckily for them, it is not something 5 year olds get taught

Its a complete lie

I don't even understand why you keep defeding this

You are straight up lying or making up some statistic/fact that is untrue

Why would you do that

WHy are you such a homophobe that you need to resort to faking data to support your argument

[radiant trout]

Okay there we disagree. I believe children have the right to get the education that is best for them.

And parents are often too stupid to understand what children need

[wintry zodiac]

Damn you are so offended, hence why im so interested in this topic, everyone gets so offended and starts lying 😂

[radiant trout]

Well

I am offended because you try to support an argument with a false claim.

You are blatantly lying and trying to sell it as ''but its just an opinion''

[wintry zodiac]

Thats what you think about what is best for them, you dont really know what is best for them

[radiant trout]

no if you want to have a proper discussion, come up with a proper argument, supported by proper claims

until then you are just being homophobic

[wintry zodiac]

What have I said that makes me Homophobic

[radiant trout]

Well, this is based on scientific research from the past 30 years

not about some anecdotal story that may or may not be true

But you are still not willing to give me some actual facts

Where did you get these ideas from

How are they supported

Etc.

You just bring up a new point try to talk over it

which makes you look even worse

I don't like homophobes you know that?

Actually i get really mad at homophobes

And as of now, you have not given me a single piece of argumentation that makes me not think you are a homophobe

Actually, all you have said points towards the opposite

You have no idea what you're talking about. You keep introducing some anecdotal evidence that you don't even know where it came from. If I'm asking you to support your claims you don't even give a proper reaction.,

If you want a discussion you can have a discussion, but then come up with some arguments supported by evidence or some claims supported by logic. Don't just throw around some random anecdotal stories and act like thats how society works

HOwever, you are not interested in a proper argument at all

[wintry zodiac]

Ok so

[radiant trout]

SO why even make this post

So far, the only point in this discussion you have made is: ''I don't like queer people because I think queer people are bullshit''

[wintry zodiac]

I am interested in a proper argument, I stated my opinion previously on what I thought should be changed, also hold up im in the middle of a game lemme finish this

[radiant trout]

Oh respond when you have time, im not demanding you to react right now

Please finish your game first

[wintry zodiac]

I said whats being taught is BS

[radiant trout]

And I asked you what are they getting taught and what evidence you have to support that, for example textbooks etc

I even specifically asked you this:

[radiant trout]

.

Which you did not even react to.

So it seems to me you have no clue

It very much looks like you are just parroting some right-wing extremist views that you've learned on foxnews or whatever

But again

If you want a discussion, you can have a discussion, but that would require you to properly support your arguments.

[wintry zodiac]

Alr so im done my game

[near ember]

You did it

[wintry zodiac]

This is what I found:

-Lessons emphasize that people and families are diverse and that this diversity is normal and should be respected.

-Children are taught the importance of treating everyone with kindness and respect, regardless of differences.

-Children can express their gender in different ways (everyone can express their gender in different ways)

-Children can have attractions to different genders

-Etc

[radiant trout]

Where did you find this?

[wintry zodiac]

1 sec

[radiant trout]

And which of those points you disagree with?

[wintry zodiac]

https://www.glsen.org/elementary-resources (Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network)

https://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/elementary/2019-health-physical-education-grades-1to8.pdf

Many on social media also express that their children should and can be taught about them having the ability to change genders and who they are attracted to

etc

[near ember]

Should children not treat everyone with kindness and respect?

That's the implication

[wintry zodiac]

Children should not be taught (not yet at the very least) about them having the ability to change their gender and that you can be gay, this is because this can easily lead into many things that can go wrong because children do not know what they want and can mess up pretty bad

[radiant trout]

From your source:

"In health education, the study of healthy relationships includes learning about the effects
and the prevention of all types of violence and bullying/harassment, whether face-to-face
or online. Learning focuses on the prevention of behaviours that reflect sexism, racism,
classism, ableism, sizeism, heterosexism, and homophobia and transphobia. Instances of
harassment, such as teasing related to weight, appearance, identity, or ability, need to be
addressed and can be related directly to concepts that students are learning. As teachers
strive to create an inclusive and respectful learning environment, it is also important that
they examine and address their own biases."

You disagree with that?

Also, you claim that 5 year olds get taught that they can change their gender whenever they want

no where in your sources is that claim supported

[wintry zodiac]

Agree with what

[radiant trout]

So you agree that children should be taught about lgbtq then

[wintry zodiac]

No where in my source is that claim not allowed, otherwise I would have seen it and no one says it isnt allowed and thats what im trying to do here, im trying to show you that I dont want children having the ability to "change" their genders and what not

[wintry zodiac]

No

[radiant trout]

If you make a claim, you have to support it with evidence otherwise the claim is invalid

So here i note that your claim is invalid as you are not able to support it

E.g. you are just spreading misinformation here

What is the point

Why believe in something that's not true in order to defend your homophobic or transphobic views

[wintry zodiac]

Wait

[radiant trout]

You want to know what 5yo actually learn?

They learn that you have bodily autonomy and that some ways of touching you can be good and some can be bad

For example, if you play with mommy and she starts tickling you, that can be okay

but if uncle comes and he touches you in spot you don't want to, thats not okay

[wintry zodiac]

https://www.glsen.org/

[radiant trout]

And you should tell daddy and mommy

[radiant trout]

Yeah it still does not support your claim

Again

[wintry zodiac]

How come?

[radiant trout]

How does it support your claim that 5yo get taught they can change their gender at any time?

You believe in stuff that doesn't exist lmao

Or are you here arguing that children that have a differnt sexual orientation should be bullied and mistreated?

Because thats all it was saying

Anyway

You have still not supported your claims

Im gonna assume you will not be able to

as what you believe does not actually exist

I feel personally attacked by your viewpoints and I feel discriminated

Therefore, I will report you for spreading homophobic and transphobic content

I gave you a chance to actually argue your viewpoint

You clearly are not able to

[wintry zodiac]

It supports people that change their genders, thus also supporting the idea and normalizing it when children shouldnt even be taught this idea at such a young age, considering many parents dont want them to learn? I mean if a parent doesnt want their child to learn this what there that you can do against it?

[wintry zodiac]

LOL ok

Thats actually funny

[radiant trout]

So you believe being part of the lgbtq community is not normal?

[wintry zodiac]

Interesting, EVERY single lgbtq supporter immediately feels attacked but alright

[radiant trout]

And you still did not argue why children shouldn't be taught this

[wintry zodiac]

normalizing it for children shouldnt be taught is what I believe, how come you are twisting my words again and again?

[radiant trout]

And i already responded to you about the parents

[radiant trout]

What is the difference in your opinion

[radiant trout]

Hmm maybe it's because the way you try to argue your points

If you were interested in a proper discussion it would be fine

But all conversations I had with homo/transphobes are always: ""Oh I heard this thing, therefore LBGTQ bad'' regardless of whether that thing is actually true or not

This one is not different

You send screenshots that do not even support the claim you make

and base totally different conclusions based off of that

I took the time to somewhat read the two sources you sent me

[wintry zodiac]

Apart from Age appropriateness that Ive already menshioned, there are many more reasons such as:

Parental Rights, Some believe that parents should have the primary role in discussing these topics with their children and that schools should not override parental preferences.
Focus on Core Subjects, time spent on LGBTQ topics could detract from core academic subjects like math, science, and reading.
Potential for Confusion, Introducing these topics at a young age could confuse children about their own gender and sexual identities.

and also religious reasons, many religious people do not want their kids taught this as well.

[radiant trout]

They did not even in the slightest support your view

[radiant trout]

Parental Rights, Some believe that parents should have the primary role in discussing these topics with their children and that schools should not override parental preferences.
They can homeschool if they don't agree with a curriculum that is determined by experts in the educational field that's based on scientific evidence on how children develop and what is proper for them to learn at what age groups.

Focus on Core Subjects, time spent on LGBTQ topics could detract from core academic subjects like math, science, and reading.
I can agree. It depends on what your phillosiphy is on school. My personal belief is that school should make you ready for the real world, so topics like these should be taught as they occur in the real world too.

Potential for Confusion, Introducing these topics at a young age could confuse children about their own gender and sexual identities.
Which is why a lot of research on children development is used in order to determine what children get taught, how they teach it and at what age these topics are taught. No 5 year old is taught about changing genders.

and also religious reasons, many religious people do not want their kids taught this as well.
They can homeschool if they don't agree with a curriculum that is determined by experts in the educational field that's based on scientific evidence on how children develop and what is proper for them to learn at what age groups.

[wintry zodiac]

1. They dont want to be home schooling their kids, how about the LGBTQ supporters home school their kids about them being able to change their genders and what not eh?

[near ember]

It took me years to accept my sexuality because I didn't know enough about it to understand. By burying information like this, you repress people. It needs to be spread

[wintry zodiac]

2. That is your opinion and my opinion, I cannot change yours because thats what you believe in and I believe in mine but my point stands

[radiant trout]

I don't care about what the parents want. If they send their kids to school, they should expect their kids to get the best education available

That includes classes on sexuality and bodily autonomy

Studies have shown it drastically decreases the odds of child abuse for example

[wintry zodiac]

3. Children are taught that its fine to change genders and sesxual orientation, so 5 year olds are being taught this and thats what im trying to show you

[radiant trout]

They are not and thats the point

There is no way to support this

as it is a false claim

i have asked you multiple times to back up the claim

you cannot

[wintry zodiac]

4. Again home schooling about lgbtq can be done, school should be for core subjects 🤷

[radiant trout]

But you keep adamant about the claim

Stop spreading fake news and misinformation

Stop parroting right-wing extremist views

Just do your research

[wintry zodiac]

So you think they are taught that changing genders and sexual orientation is not fine?

[radiant trout]

Thats not something 5 year olds are taught and I don't believe thats proper material for 5 year olds

Or I know that that's not proper material for 5 yo as I have taught children those age groups and that was not part of the curriculum

LIke it told you before

[wintry zodiac]

Exactly what im trying to say here, they are saying its ok to change their gender and sexual orientation, so how does that not mean that they are technically being taught that it is allowed hm?

[radiant trout]

Also, one can not change sexual orientation

either you are straight or you are not

its not some choice you can make

[wintry zodiac]

I think you are misinterpreting my point

[radiant trout]

No i am understanding very well

[wintry zodiac]

No its a choice you can make

[radiant trout]

Okay

This discussion is over

Parlox, I am making an appeal for Skitles breaking the discord community guidelines.

Do with it whatever you want

I find this behavior disrespectful

[wintry zodiac]

😂 Well thats up to you, if you dont want to then thats fine

[wintry zodiac]

how come?

How am I spreding transphobia and homophobia? 😂

I am spreading my opinion on this matter hence why this is philosophy, I am also willing to change my opinion but it may be very hard and some may not be changed like the idea of gender orientation being taught to 5 year olds

me not supporting lgbtq is immediately considered as homophobia and transphobia

[near ember]

Trust me, I don't appreciate his views either, but one of this server's goals is free speech so I don't think he'll be banned

You can report him directly to Discord if you want

That's not up to me

[near ember]

This is objectively not true

There's an endless amount of research about it

It's impacted by several factors including genes and environment. You can't choose to be straight or not be straight.

Try choosing being gay, let's see how that will work out for you

I recommend that you look up "is being gay a choice"

[wintry zodiac]

So if a man like a female at first, and later changes his opinion they choose who they are technically attracted to

[wintry zodiac]

genes have nothing to do with what gender you are attracted to, not really atleast

its mainly environment

because atleast in the US, you can choose wether or not you identify as heterosexual or homosexual as a male

[near ember]

There are tons of studies showing that gay people are more likely to have family members who are also gay than straight people

This points to an obvious correlation that it comes form genes at least partially

[wintry zodiac]

Its mainly because if the parents teach that being gay is allowed and normalize it, then the others may consider, hence the environment aspect of it

[near ember]

What does this even mean?

[wintry zodiac]

You can choose wehter you identify as heterosexual or homosexual (in the sense on who you are attracted to)

[near ember]

I recommend that you read any study about this to learn

[near ember]

No you can't, and what does this have to do with the US

[wintry zodiac]

i dont feel like going through all that at the moment, but if time comes up then maybe, however its mainly the environment that dictates the people, if a persons family is more tolerant of homosexuality then there will be more homosexuality

[near ember]

You're just saying that.

You like making things up

You even admitted that you don't have any statistics to back one of your other points

Try reading

Besides

Can you please explain the problem with being gay?

Why is it so bad?

[wintry zodiac]

Hold up, so you think that if a person has a family that is more tolerant of homosexuality there wont be more homosexuality and if there is less tolerance then there will be more homosexuality despite the environment?

[near ember]

There can be a difference yes

But you're denying the effect of genes

Which is provably a big factor

[wintry zodiac]

Because the "gene" aspect affecting someones sexuality isnt proven yet, its still under research

I mean you havent backed up anything yet have you?

[near ember]

I think you misunderstand though. I'm not saying there will be "less homosexuality" if the environment isn't tolerant. I'm saying they are less likely to be out of the closet. Being gay is partially genes and partially environment, but the effects of the environment aren't as simple as your family liking gay people or not. Our brains are complicated

[near ember]

This is blatantly false

Give me a second to find a study

I'll back it up

I've read ones before

[wintry zodiac]

Theres no evidence to show that its partially genes'

[near ember]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/4482/

https://www.science.org/content/article/genetics-may-explain-25-same-sex-behavior-giant-analysis-reveals

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02312-0

there you go

An article from Nature, one of the two most credible science news sources in the US

direct quote

from 2019

And Science is the other most credible science news source in the US

Both of them back my claim up

Do some reading 🙂

There are also studies on how you can detect the differences between gay people and straight people in the brain

[wintry zodiac]

Genetics alone do not determine if one is gay or isnt gay

[near ember]

I never said that

[wintry zodiac]

Also still under research

Now

[near ember]

You're putting a strawman

[near ember]

I recommend reading what I linked

There's already been research

[wintry zodiac]

Hormones and environmental factors are the ones that pretty much contribute to ones homosexuality, genes dont really play a part unless you can prove it

[near ember]

Read what I linked 🙂

[south jungle]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1529100616637616 - great roundup of the scientific literature as of 2015 for those interested

[near ember]

Otherwise you're just ignoring science

[radiant trout]

I know. That's why I said, do what you want with it. Already reported to discord. But thank you anyway!

[near ember]

Not really up to me tbh

So either way it's not my decision to make

[radiant trout]

Fair enough 🤣

[wintry zodiac]

However your point that you tried to make is that families that have a gay person are more likely to have another gay person, what I tried to point out is that genes most likely dont play a factor obviously because environmental factors are more likely to be it, I said that with families that are more tolerant of homosexuality there will be more homosexuality meanwhile less tolerant will have less homosexuality, now I may have been wrong I dont know though if genes actually play a part in the homosexuality, genes may play a part in sexual behaivor but not homosexuality. You tried to say that there is "obvious" correlation for genes to homosexuality

[near ember]

There is obvious correlation, backed up by tons of studies

[south jungle]

"We would be surprised if differences in social environment contributed to differences in male sexual orientation at all. We would be less surprised if the social environment affected the expression of male sexual orientation, including the likelihood that a homosexually oriented male would choose to act on his feelings." - quote from the above article

[near ember]

As for correlation between familial tolerance and homosexuality

It does not decrease it

It just hides it

People don't become straight because their family doesn't like it

They just don't come out

And our data backs this up

[wintry zodiac]

It isnt? Because if someone is gay and speaks out about it, its most likely that the family itself is a lot more tolerant of it than the straight families which may be influenced by religion like islam and christianity

[near ember]

If you're gonna ignore decades of research, this whole thread is made in bad faith. You don't wanna be convinced.

[wintry zodiac]

I literally said "now I may have been wrong I dont know though if genes actually play a part in the homosexuality, genes may play a part in sexual behaivor but not homosexuality"

[south jungle]

Does this say more about their being gay or feeling safe enough to speak out about it?

[near ember]

You are wrong, and we've shown proof

But you ignore it

[wintry zodiac]

I can accept if something is wrong

[near ember]

Ok so accept it

[wintry zodiac]

I also said that if theres more biological men going to womens bathrooms, that there would be more harrasment and that it wouldnt decrease and most likely will increase and that it is obvious logic, however because of your bias you refuse to accept it

[near ember]

You have shown 0 proof

[wintry zodiac]

I havent been proven wrong yet entirely though, its not like a fact

[near ember]

And you admitted you don't have statistics for that

[near ember]

???

[wintry zodiac]

ive showed cases of transgender males harrasing women and children, is that not enough?

[near ember]

Don't make a claim like that without proof. It's a waste of everyone's time

I'm glad you feel that way

Idc

[wintry zodiac]

@near ember

[near ember]

That has nothing to do with laws disallowing trans people from entering bathrooms

Those individual cases are crimes anyway

The laws you want are to discriminate all trans people

Not just criminals

[wintry zodiac]

discriminate?

[near ember]

Yep

[wintry zodiac]

if thats what you think LOL

[near ember]

Is disallowing people from entering places for their identity not discrimination

I could say you're not allowed to enter my mall because you're straight

Is that not discriminatory

Now yes the example im giving is one specific mall

The problem is youre advocating for state wide laws

On a mass scale

Against one group of people

[wintry zodiac]

Its not because of their identity, its because of their biological sex and that many may take advantage of this law, I also think if biological males are now allowed to enter womens bathrooms as long as they identify as a woman then they might as well remove the 2 gender bathrooms now

[near ember]

If you were to enter a women's bathroom right now, without any criminal intent, you just wanna piss, should that be a crime?

[wintry zodiac]

No, but making it a crime would HEAVILY reduce the risk of sexual crimes

[near ember]

So if your law went into effect, you'd go to prison for that

Good job

You're contradicting yourself

You want the law

But you're saying it shouldn't be a crime

So which one then

[wintry zodiac]

The law is against the idea of biological men from entering womens bathrooms to prevent sexual crimes, no against the entire transgender group, if you take offence to that then theres no point in arguing with you

[near ember]

Sexual crimes are already crimes

We don't need extra laws for that

[wintry zodiac]

No, obviously if theres no criminal intent it would be allowed, but we dont live in a utopia where theres no criminals

You think that everyone who enters are for the purpose of pissing, rather than other factors like sexual crime

[near ember]

What's the point in adding a law that makes people who are already criminals, criminals

[wintry zodiac]

You are purposefully missing my point here

[near ember]

I'm not

If someone goes into a bathroom to commit sexual assault or rape or smth similar

They're already commiting a crime

Adding a law that makes these crimes

Is pointless

If you don't want people who enter into bathrooms for innocent reasons to be criminals

Then why do you want this law

[wintry zodiac]

You are missing my point LOL

[near ember]

im not

[wintry zodiac]

here let me restate what im trying to show you

[near ember]

you said most men who enter womens bathrooms wanna commit a crime

yes?

let's assume that's true

if we add a law that stops men from entering womens bathrooms

[wintry zodiac]

no, not at all, but why would u wanna etner a womens bathroom when theres a mens one

anyway

here

[near ember]

????

I know this is a bit unrelated but I have a genuine question

Who's your favorite politician?

[wintry zodiac]

I support the idea of making biological men unable to go to womens bathrooms, why? Because many men can take advantage of women, how does this law prevent more criminals than usual?

Because if you see a man going into a womens bathroom you know that theres only 3 reasons

1. he missed the sign (VERY rare)
2. he really needs to go (invalid because theres typically a mens bathroom next to a womens bathroom)
3. he wants to commit a crime

Therefore if you stop all men from going, there would be instances where if a man enters a womens bathroom and you stop them then most of the time they cant commit the crime (this would prevent a lot more cases of crime because you stop the men from entering before they commit it). If you also take this law into place, then the amount of transgender women (biologically male) harrasing women would also go down and theres a less likelyhood of a chance of the crime being commited. I have already showed you that transgender women have taken advantage of other women in the bathrooms/lockers. Also many women may feel uncomfortable with them being in the same room as them, but lets ignore them being uncomfortable for the sake of transgender rights am I right?

[wintry zodiac]

Im not really knowledgeable on politicians but if I had to choose I would choose trump

[near ember]

Populations work in averages. You gave 5 examples of trans people commiting crimes? Out of a population that is bigger than a lot of states in the US

Give statistics.

[wintry zodiac]

???

[near ember]

5 people commiting crimes out of 1.6m people is not enough to justify disallowing all of the 1.6m from entering bathrooms

[wintry zodiac]

I dont think I understood what ur looking for

[near ember]

Give statistics

[wintry zodiac]

What kind of statistics

[near ember]

How many trans people are criminals compared to the average american? How many of them commit crimes within bathrooms?

[wintry zodiac]

Theres obviously more, if you look into it and there will be more hence why we should disallow it, we shouldnt take any risks of women being harrased for the sake of transgender rights

[near ember]

Give statistics if there's obviously more

it can't be that hard to look it up

[near ember]

hold up

transgender rights are worthless compared to women?

Is that your take?

[wintry zodiac]

nope

[near ember]

ok so explain please

[wintry zodiac]

My take is that women shouldnt be harrased for the sake of their rights, meaning even if theres only a slight increase in women being harrased, its not worth the rights, just introduce a bathroom only "transgender women" can enter if that becomes a problem

[near ember]

introducing a trans only bathroom is taking away their rights

they're women

and you're outright admitting that trans rights don't matter compared to women

do you understand that disallowing 1.6m people from entering bathrooms will hurt a lot of people?

[wintry zodiac]

I am outright admittingn that trans rights are worth less than women being harrased, is that wrong?

[near ember]

I guess if we're saying that, might as well send em to the camps, right? Because some trans people could harass women outside bathrooms

And that's a big risk

[wintry zodiac]

😂And thats the problem when talking with LGBTQ supporters, a lot of you exaggerate things, take things offensively despite not being offensive at all, and so on

[near ember]

I wanna stop men and trans women from entering bars

There are so many rapes in bars

It's too dangerous

We have to stop it

[wintry zodiac]

I dont think that corresponds to what im saying

[near ember]

why not

there are more cases of rape in bars than bathrooms

look it up

why should men be allowed access to them

btw I really like what this guy wrote

Read it

[wintry zodiac]

I think you are missing the point here, and exaggerate what im saying

[near ember]

I'm not

Bars should be restricted to women if bathrooms should be restriced to women

Because of sexual assaults and rapes

[wintry zodiac]

preventing them from entering womens specifically bathrooms wont prevent them from taking a piss, meanwhile bars would, preventing women from being harrased is a lot better than simply letting trans women have the ability to go to the womens bathrooms, its not the entirety of a right that is worth less than a women, its simply them entering womens bathrooms

[near ember]

ok so lets have women only bars and men only bars

There are more cases of rape and sexual assault in bars than bathrooms

We have to separate them

I'm correct by your logic

[wintry zodiac]

Also bathrooms are intimate spaces, they are different from bars

[near ember]

Women don't piss in public

Theres doors

Same in bars

They both can function publicly

[near ember]

Read this ^

[wintry zodiac]

1. By removing the signs there is a more likelyhood of women being harrased, no doubt about it. (simple logic/correlation like Cury said 😂)

2. Wait lines are not common, you dont usually have wait lines on public bathrooms do you? Also split bathrooms prevent crime, communal bathrooms are meant to have al ot of people in there at once, who cares if you like them or not just use the bathroom

3. Disabled stalls typically provide a lot more privacy, and are used less frequently. In many public spaces, security measures and surveillance systems are often focused on common areas rather than individual bathroom stalls. This can deter potential offenders from targeting secluded areas like disabled stalls where there is less chance of being observed or interrupted. Certain Accessability features also may discourage people from commiting innapropriate or misuse behaivor. There are also Cultural and Social norms that may discourage this kind of behaivor for people with disabilities.

4. Your home bathroom isnt typically at risk of Sexual assaults or anything right?

5. Again, seperating them would heavily decrease the illegal actions, obviously its still illegal but it would still decrease the amount of sexual assaults, simple logic am I right?

6. Its very rate that lines are full or bathroom is out of order, but when they are people arent mad because theres an actual valid reason for them to enter and even then its less likely to happen because typically they know that the person is using the bathroom because theirs is out of order, if we lived in a utopia obviously we would have no divided bathroom situation here, Ive already listed the many reasons on why we should devide them anyway.

brb

[near ember]

Responding to point 6; so it's rare, but it does happen, right? But if we make it illegal, they wont be able to go

I guess they'll have to shit themselves

Secondly

If it's simple logic that ungendered bathrooms increase harrasment of women

Prove it

Show any proof

You have still in this whole thread not sent any stats for anything you're saying

Which shows that you're either extremely lazy or know that you're wrong

Well

There is a third option

Which is that you're in denial and tell yourself that studies don't mean anything

Which one of these three are you?

[wintry zodiac]

There would obviously be exceptions, you dont typically make something illegal and just illegal no matter what but alright

[wintry zodiac]

There arent any statistics of showing that unified bathrooms increase the crimes, because we cannot have a comparison yet, not at the same scale atleast, theres only so many gender fluid bathrooms (unified) but its not enough to actually see wehter or not it increases or decreases, however it only seems logical that it will increase, there are MANY things you do not need to show statistics for because its logical

Simply adding genderfluid bathrooms and replacing all the men and women bathroom would increase fear among women and children and their privacy matters

I simply rely on logical responses and if I can I will pull up statistics, however most of my claims are based on whats logical, you do not have to believe in these but it doesnt make my claims invalid just because I cannot provide solid evidence

[near ember]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9407760/#:~:text=Analyses of criminal incident reports,assault than perpetrators [7].

a direct quote from this study

link me a study that backs up your claim

I've linked one

This study was published on the national library of medicine in the united states

As official as you can get

[wintry zodiac]

Read what I said

[near ember]

I read it

Your opinion is irrelevant

There are studies on this

With analyses of tons of cases

But you refuse to read them

[wintry zodiac]

LOL

[near ember]

Or take them seriously

You deny proof when it's right in front of you

[wintry zodiac]

I mean I can tell you are really offended by this eh?

[near ember]

Seems to me like you're offended when you're writing lol

This is fun for me

You made me read studies

I like that

You made me more informed

You just don't wanna read these studies

[wintry zodiac]

Well if thats what it looks like for you, I dont think I provided ways I could be offended but alright 😂

[near ember]

Why won't you read the study?

Explain please

I sent you several links and screenshots

Even just scroll down to the conclusion

Studies write those so you can quickly understand the point

Here's a screenshot for your convenience

I'm sure that if I can find numerous studies to back up my point, you could too

[wintry zodiac]

Trans youth are more likely to be assaulted but not sexually assaulted, why? Because theres more hatred towards them. However in general the addition of Trans youth into womens bathrooms wont decrease the sexual assault, therefore it can only increase, which is logical and you dont like logical responses do you?

Also gender fluid toilets typically have more security features than normal toilets

[near ember]

Link me a study that proves this

Anything

You don't like it when empirical evidence proves you wrong?

[wintry zodiac]

Study that proves what

[near ember]

That proves either of your points, that adding trans youth to womens bathrooms increases sexual assault, and that gender-neutral toilets have more security features

If it's true then there has to be something to prove it

There's plenty of studies that contradict you

[near ember]

"Trans youth are more likely to be assaulted but not sexually assaulted, why?" I've already sent you a screenshot of a quote from a study that says the opposite, here it is again

sexual assault

in the last sentence

[wintry zodiac]

Ive provided instances of transgender women assaulting women, thats an addition of sexual assaults therefore if adding trans people in there and some commit crimes then it technically means that it has increased. Ass for gender neutral toilets you can find them yourself and look at the differences, for example traditional communal men/women toilets have stalls meanwhile gender neutral toilets often have more enclosed stalls or cubicles depending on the policy at that place

anyway i gtg for now

talk to ya later

[wintry zodiac]

And what does that change

It still means that there would be more perpetrators

anyway cya

[near ember]

You know that trans people are people too, right?

Imagine a trans woman who went through surgeries and sex change and everything

Has boobs and all the fun stuff

And goes into a men's bathroom

Is that ok?

[rigid pumice]

You can find "instances" of absolutely anything. If you were engaging honestly you'd care about the prevalence of attacks by transgender individuals versus attacks by cisgender women or men in similar situations. Because what's stopping a lesbian or cis man from assaulting a woman in a bathroom? Nothing. You are just assuming because of your bigotry, that a trans woman is more likely to commit SA.

Plus in general, based on current bathroom layouts, it is better for men with female children to take them into the women's room due to it being all private stall. You're the one who has claimed we shouldn't subject children to nudity and they are more likely to see a dick in the men's room because of urinals than seeing anything in the women's room. But these bills also make it illegal for this to happen. So all around it is just nonsense. SA is illegal, there is no need for additional restrictions on bathrooms other than to make the lives of Law abiding trans people harder.

Beyond that, there is no practical way to stop access to bathrooms based on genitals, unless you are proposing genital checks on anyone entering the bathroom. I'm sure that would go over well. There are plenty of people who could be misidentified as men or women who aren't even trans affected by other people's perceptions as well.

[wintry zodiac]

Theres a huge misinterpretation of my words in the first paragraph you said

Basically

Im not assuming that trans women are more likely to commit SA, im saying the addition of trans women only adds more SA which is why im against it, its not only SA however it is of many other reasons

What would be stopping a cis man assaulting a woman in the bathrooms is the fact that many would simply say that they cannot enter and if he tried then many would stop him and what not. basically what im trying to say is if a man tries to enter a womans bathroom, then a lot of people would tell him not to enter and prevent him from doing so

Wether trans women are more likely or not to commit SA they are in general only going to add into that and make many other women uncomfortable, im sure you have seen many women filming themselves being uncomfortable about their precense right?

You value trans women rights over women rights and I value both equally, however I value womens protection more than trans women rights to go to a womens bathroom

[wintry zodiac]

Obviously

[rigid pumice]

And if no one is around? Which is when assault happen? Who is stopping it. You think if someone witnesses an assault they wouldn't try to stop it? So you're scenario is stupid. If someone is around they I'll try to stop it, if no one is around there is no one to stop it.

[wintry zodiac]

Obviously if no one is around then the assault is more likely to happen, however in general the law prevents more people from being harmed and thats what im here for

There are always different scenarios to these situations and the law doesnt solve all of them but it will help prevent MANY SA's

[rigid pumice]

It is statistically more likely for a trans woman using the men's room to be assaulted than for a trans woman to assault someone in the women's room, so I actually care more about reducing harm in general than anything else.

[wintry zodiac]

If you view my opinion as trans phobic and "bigotry' then thats fine but I dont suggest talking to me anyway then

[rigid pumice]

It is also overwhelmingly more likely for a trans woman sent to a male prison to be raped than for a trans woman to rape someone in a female prison. If they did or had a history of sexual violence then it's fine to exclude them. But doing so blanketly with no reference to individual situations is more harmful.

So do you actually care about harm equally? Or really you just don't care what happens to trans people. Like 100 trans women can be raped in men's prison if it prevents 1 rape in a women's prison, let's see where your line is.

[wintry zodiac]

I think this assault would gradually decrease as there is less hatred towards trans women (I suggest using women instead of woman as women refers to many woman's at once), many of the assault is because they dont like the trans women being in there, so MAYBE I could also accept a 3 bathroom thing where its like man-woman-transgender because for some reason all this bathroom stuff is such a big problem anyway

[wintry zodiac]

overwhelmingly is an exaggeration

[ebon perch]

Isn't it just more likely to get raped in a male prison in general?

[wintry zodiac]

Male prisons are one hell of a place lol, they dont care what gender you are

[ebon perch]

They just pray on the people who can't or wont defend themselves

[rigid pumice]

You can check the studies. A few that popped up said trans women in male prisons are about 13 times more likely to be raped than a random prisoner.

[wintry zodiac]

Also @rigid pumice Allowing tansgender women to enter Womens bathroom isnt going to solve the common issue, the best issue is to add gender-fluid bathrooms however that may take too much space and I think this issue is pretty complicated

[ebon perch]

Does it say why though? Can we see the physique of them. I'm curious if the ones that are, are also jacked to where they can defend themselves.

[rigid pumice]

Trans women are obviously more likely to look like women, so prisoners are more likely to rape them. It's not that complicated.

[rigid pumice]

No the solution is just abolishing gendered bathrooms entirely. I've seen them in plenty if places. The toilets are just fully enclosed rooms, it's just better and uses less place if anything.

[ebon perch]

Well yea, than they're not being targeted it seems like because they're trans specifically, but because they have the qualities the rapist are looking for, defenseless and a bonus of looking more feminine

I mean straight people who get raped in prison are usually forced to dress more feminine

[rigid pumice]

Right, so they are safer in women's prison and they have been living as women so it just makes more sense if they have no history of sexual or general violence.

[wintry zodiac]

The main reason on why transgender women are being assaulted is because of discrimination, and a lot of it comes from the people wanting to keep their norms and being aware that if these cultural norms are changed especially so drastically then it may lead to certain negative effects on societal structures percticularly on family and child-rearing

[rigid pumice]

So we should do whatever we can to protect them right?

[ebon perch]

But they are biological men, so no it doesn't make sense. Should every male who gets arrested, who is not physically built be sent to a female prison just because they can't protect themselves?

[rigid pumice]

Not just let it happen

[clever quest]

That's also the main reason why anyone commits a crime, so even if transgender people are more likely to commit crime it's because of how society treats them, not anything to do with being transgender intrinsically.

[ebon perch]

The average male prisoner is going to be muscular

[wintry zodiac]

Nope, since you arent doing whatevre you can to protect cis women, I mean i dont mind protecting them but if you arent willing to protect cis women then I may not be willing to protect trans women, We protect them by seperating them all eh? Worked in the past.

[wintry zodiac]

2 wrongs dont make a right

[rigid pumice]

Well I think we should be preventing everyone from being assaulted in prison. I think that any prisoner who suffers violence should be able to sue the state, they would find a solution to it pretty damn fast if that were the case.

[clever quest]

I'm not saying they do. I'm saying that the problem is not with trans women, it's with the people who are discriminating against them.

[ebon perch]

So it seems you want to spend more money on the prison system then? Add extra facilities and wings to keep people of the same security rating separated even further based on physical ability. That just seems unreasonable. Violence in prison is already punished, including rape if it is caught. ANy crimes in prison also extend your sentence.

[wintry zodiac]

I also see a huge problem with LGBTQ activists, a lot of LGBTQ supporters are very agressive and not willing to understand many things (of course there are many that are good people but in general many are really annoying). What im trying to say is that I also dont like many LGBTQ supporters because of their way of spreading the movement, if you dont allign yourself with them then you may be "canceled" or considered as a trans-phobe or homophobe like what Cury did to me 😂

[clever quest]

You think trans women pose a danger to other women? First, that's pure discrimination itself, suggesting that all of the members of a group of people share a negative characteristic. Second, even women pose a danger to other women. You want to look at the rates of violence in women only prisons?
Protecting people is never, and has never, been about segregating them from other groups. It's about dealing with the individual cases of dangerous situations, and the individual cases of vulnerable people.

[ebon perch]

I do agree with that^ later half.

[wintry zodiac]

SEE AGAIN LOL, "discrimination"

[rigid pumice]

I have a lot to say on prison reform, but yes I'd rather spend more money than allow people to suffer violence in prison. It just perpetuates the cycle. I also think it should be illegal to not hire someone or create any restrictions on their freedom once released from prison. It also perpetuates the cycle of crime and violence because they can't find housing or employment or generally reintegrate into society.

If they have committed a crime such that no sentence or psychological treatment would allow us to treat them as regular citizens upon release, then kill them.

[ebon perch]

Question, do you ever feel that discrimination is helpful, or needed?

[clever quest]

I agree with some of the criticism of some LGBTQ+ activist actions. It's nobody's fault if people make a mistake and accidentally refer to someone as a man instead of a woman, or vice versa. It's also nobody's fault that not everybody understands that there is a whole spectrum of gender and not just two. Nobody should be getting angry with other people over either of those two things.
But, when you purposefully refer to someone by an incorrect label, that is of course rude. And I think that happens way too much, including from people who see a trans woman and say "Well, they're men really aren't they." So I can understand why some activists are already on edge and react badly to any mistakes, even if I don't agree with it.

[ebon perch]

I actually agree with you on this wholeheartedly. If someone cannot be trusted outside of prison, they shouldn't be outside of prison.

But we do also need more to help people get on their feet after prison (I honestly don't know much about this process right now, so I'm just assuming here)

[clever quest]

It depends on which meaning of the word you're talking about. Is it ever a good idea to treat people better or worse because of their membership of a particular group? Probably not. Is it a good idea to treat people differently because of their membership of a particular group? Yes, sometimes.

But the difference between better/worse and just different is important

[ebon perch]

Yea that's what I'm curious about, can you elaborate on what you mean by different vs better/worse?

[wintry zodiac]

Thats not the type of activists I refer to

Im referring to the type of activists who say that if you dont identify as they/them then you are a transphobe or homophobe

I am referring to the people who immediately label me as a genocider of trans people, neo-nazi, transphobe, homophobe, and so on if I dont allign my beliefs with theirs and if I try and talk to them about why something shouldnt be happening

Im talking about LGBTQ activists who are willing to ruin someones lives over them not supporting their beliefs (maybe a bit extreme but they can go as far as to get someone fired)

Im talking about a majority of the LGBTQ supporters here who immediately say that whatever I believe in is bigotry because I dont support them 😂

Its not just the opposers of LGBTQ that may seem disrespectful to LGBTQ because they simply dont play along with the gender identity and pronoun checks and what not, but the LGBTQ supporters are also very disrespectful to many places and many people, I think I saw a band where 2 gay men kissed in malyasia knowing that public affection of ANY sort is frowned upon and action may be taken against that. I mean I consider that disrespectful

I am also referring to the LGBTQ activists who carry inflatable sex organs and wear innapropriate clothing to protests, where all children can see

Some of them chanted "we're queer, we're here, we're coming for your children"

[clever quest]

It's all context dependent. But it comes down to establishing the same basic rights for everyone. So for example you need to treat someone who needs a wheelchair differently than someone who can walk, but building a ramp for them to access a building isn't treating them any better than you're treating the person who can walk.

You're treating both people equally by allowing both to access the building, even though you're taking different actions with respect to them.

[radiant trout]

Its not because we disagree with you. It is because your opinion is based on lies and misinformation and you act as if they are fact. I couldnt care less about your beliefs, but I do care about how you present and represent those beliefs. If you are coming in here claiming anything other than being straight is a choice, than you are willingly insulting people with statements of which you KNOW they are false. THAT is the reason people get offended.

It is because you inult and disrespect us.

[wintry zodiac]

Oh yeah thats right, my opinion is based on lies and misinformation because It is formed against your opinion alright

[near ember]

You still haven't sent any proof of your claims, which I did

Been waiting on that for hours

[radiant trout]

That has nothing to do with it. Stop victimizing yourself if you want a normal discussion and start having a normal discussion.

[wintry zodiac]

You victimized yourself by saying that you felt personally attacked and offended wdym 😂

[radiant trout]

Because you were insulting me and any member of the LGBT community

[wintry zodiac]

How?

[radiant trout]

I told you twice already

If it is still not clear to you, I don't really know what to say...

[wintry zodiac]

So claiming literally anything other than being straight is a choice insults you? alright 😂

[near ember]

Why do you ignore me? @wintry zodiac

[clever quest]

If, for the sake of argument, you're a man, and someone insists on exclusively calling you and treating you like a woman, that would feel rude, no? It seems reasonable to me to ask people not to purposefully mislabel others.

When we're talking about "shouldn't be happening", if someone comes up to you and says that you "shouldn't" be the way you are, that's about the most rude thing anyone can say to another person. They're saying they are an aberration, not valid. Maybe this isn't the context which you were referring to, but it's a common problem with LGBTQ+ debates.

I agree, people shouldn't turn so violent over misunderstandings. But it can be hard to separate the honest misunderstandings from the genuine hostile and deliberate discrimination. That deliberate discrimination is a big problem, and is something we should do something about.

I do agree that sometimes people protest in deliberately provocative ways, that cross the line into unacceptable behaviour. I'm not a fan of musicians, for example, trying to make subversive political statements in countries with different cultural views. That, to me, is them assuming that their values are better than those in the other country. And while it's fine to hold that belief, kind of the central point to the valid part of the LGBTQ+ case is that nobody should force their views on others. So for me, yes, sometimes some LGBTQ+ campaigners do forget their central point and do bad things in the name of a good overall cause.

[radiant trout]

You have very clearly stated that you think that many people here live their lifes wrong and there is something wrong with them as a person. You don't find that insulting?

[south jungle]

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/nbc-out-proud/re-coming-children-chant-nyc-drag-march-elicits-outrage-activists-say-rcna91341

[radiant trout]

You literally claimed you are not okay with non-hetero people openly being themselves in public.

HOW IS THAT NOT INSULTING?

[wintry zodiac]

Im pretty sure I explained this very well multiple times, theres 2 things that I am aware of that you asked for proof for.

1. Addition of transgender women entering womens bathrooms will increase the SA's.

^I dont think I need any statistical data to back this up and I dont think I can find any because no one has done any on this, however if there already have been many cases of transgender women attacking women in bathrooms then it can only increase the SA's. This is simple logical thinking, however you want statistical data to be convinced of anything and ive provided many of those cases where transgender women assaulted women.

2. I dont even remember but imma get back on this later lemme answer the other things

[wintry zodiac]

Where

[radiant trout]

if you are gay or whatever imo you should keep it to yourself
Its literally in your first message in this topic

You don't find that insulting?

You imply there that you don't want LGBT people having the same freedoms and rights as cis heterosexual people

[radiant trout]

^I dont think I need any statistical data to back this up
Any factual claim you make needs statistical data to back it up. Now you are just making a hypothesis and assume it to be true, that's not how facts work.

"People opening LGBTQ+ is BS or no? topics on a discord server are probably part of the LGBTQ community"
^I don't think I need any statistical data to back this up

Apparently SKitles you are part of the lgbt community now

You see the absurdity of this?

[wintry zodiac]

1. The problem is that they are insisting on calling you based on your biological gender and what you look like, many of them dont care and personally if someone called me a woman I could care less i wouldnt be making a fuss all about it and taking it too serious. This isnt even a valid scenario because people are not willing to play along with the gender identity game and whatever and people are taking that too offensively which is kind of sad.

2. How is that relevant, I never said that you shouldnt be the way you are did I? Most debates dont even talk about "you shouldnt be the way you are", they are talking about mostly other things like wether or not LGBTQ should be taught in school or wether or not gender surgery should be allowed for kids and wahtever.

3. To put it simply, most people cant bother even remembering your gender identity and could care less, they will just say you are a he if you look like a he its as simple as that, no need for ze/zir or whatever I think its too excessive and you are making everything too complicated for literally no reason, you are being hostile to people who do not have the time for the gender identity issue and making it worse, why cant you just ignore them and not talk to them if its such a big problem?

4. its not sometimes that LGBTQ campaigners forget their central point, its MOST of the time that LGBTQ supporters/campaigners/activists/protestors are forcing their beliefs and are intruding peoples lives over their gender identity and its becoming a bigger problem, believe me literally NOBODY would be having a problem with LGBTQ if it werent the LGBTQ community causing the problems themselves or putting up pride flags everywhere and what not

[wintry zodiac]

Not at all, I simply stated that if you are gay then you should keep it to yourself and that I literally could care less. I mean if me not caring about wether or not you are gay is insulting then thats a bit excessive I think

I simply dont care if you are gay or straight

I think that was my main point there

[radiant trout]

But as soon as I openly display my sexuality you do care about whether I'm gay or straight

So you do care

[wintry zodiac]

Never said it was factual, however I was using common sense, and you assume it to be wrong however it cant be wrong and it most likely is true therefore I believe its true despite not having any statistical data to back it up (or atleast havent found any so far)

[radiant trout]

So you REALLY don't see the absurdity of this statement?

[wintry zodiac]

I didnt understand a word of what you said here

[wintry zodiac]

What statement and how is it absurd? I never said it was factual have I?

[radiant trout]

So you don't see the absurdity. Noted

Alr have a good discussion, not wasting any more time on this topic

[wintry zodiac]

As soon as you start being annoying with it then I start being annoyed and hence why im over here arguing with you? I still dont care if you are gay or straight I mean if I did I would have asked a long time ago

The arguing isnt about wether or not you are gay or straight

its about wether or not you should be annoying with it and intrude my personal life with it

[near ember]

Ze/zir is older than the emancipation of slavery btw

[wintry zodiac]

Not like I wanted to have a conversation with someone who called me a transphobe, homophobe and someone who discriminates the LGBTQ community with no actual proof but alright, considering im not 😂

[wintry zodiac]

Ok so?

What am I going to do with this information 😂

If you dont mind me asking, out of curiosity @near ember are you a biological man or female and who are you attracted to

[near ember]

It's not just the lgbtq+ coming up with crazy terms or whatever. It's been here for a century and a half

If you have a problem with ze/zir you'd have to go back to a time when lincoln was alive

[wintry zodiac]

Do you mind me asking or not?

[near ember]

I'm attracted to your mom. Her bed is nice

[wintry zodiac]

How is that relevant, Im saying that if you look like a man I will say he him and I am not going to change my traditions of talking and saying he/him and she/her. If you do not like that so much then you should talk to me kind of thing

You should realize people value their way of speech and do not want to overcomplicate everything

[near ember]

You're so triggered, I was just making a 'your mom' joke

Im tired of people like you getting offended

[wintry zodiac]

😂 I feel that when a person starts making immature jokes or insults in the middle of a debate or discussion, that they typically lose the debate or discussion because it shows their lack of ability to keep things serious. However you might oppose this idea and thats fine

[wintry zodiac]

Yes im triggered 100% 😂, I havent even read the joke when I was saying that

[wintry zodiac]

Yes and im tired of people like you getting offended because I stated an opinion

[near ember]

Says someone who is triggered ^

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah

[near ember]

You just get offended all the time

Maybe keep it to yourself

[wintry zodiac]

If thats what you think

Anyway I am going to go to sleep now, talk to ya later

[rigid pumice]

Things existing in the world does not mean they are intruding on your personal life.

You're like the people who get legitimately angry about any cultural phenomenon they don't personally like.

The type of people who just got pissed at how popular Harry Potter or Game of Thrones were because it was everywhere and people were always talking about it. Tough.

[clever quest]

1. Gender identity isn't a game. It's just a fact of life that there are multiple genders. Like I've said, I don't think anyone should get upset about honest mistakes. But if someone deliberately calls someone by the wrong gender, then they are being deliberately rude, and there's no excuse for that. It's not optional to use the correct words for things.

2. If that wasn't how you mean that phrase then no worries, that part is not relevant to you.

3. It's not that hard to understand there are things that you can't judge on sight. We do that every day with tons of things. Like I said, it's not optional. You can't just insist on your right to promote misinformation and be rude to people. It's just a question of fact. Those are the right pronouns to use, and although it requires 'some' effort to know which is the right one to use in a particular circumstance, it's not unreasonable to require it as standard. It's the same thing as not using racially derogatory words. You've just got to suck it up and stop acting like a spoilt child by refusing to learn and improve.

4. Our impressions of the prevalence of people who go over the top depends on what our media shows us. I don't think most LGBTQ+ activists get it wrong, but maybe you see different things than I do.
   Having said that, celebrating things is not going over the top. Asking people to use the correct pronouns isn't over the top. Being in the media isn't going over the top. People are allowed to communicate who they are. So if that's what you mean by campaigners causing problems, it's not a valid complaint.

[clever quest]

I'm not sure why you tagged me with that. It's an article about a chant that conservative people are misunderstanding?

[deft vapor]

Gender is a social construct so as far as that goes I don’t think Society can place constraints around that, especially when the right pushes the narrative that the community is “mentally unwell” and especially when a lot of opposition stems from religion that’s a bigger problem

[south jungle]

I meant to reply to an earlier comment specifically about that phrase mb

[clever quest]

Ah ok, no worries 👍

[south jungle]

this is the one

[rigid pumice]

This is the kind of shit that makes people call you an ignorant bigot.

This is not what is being taught. The extent of sexual orientation instruction a 5 year old might get is "Some people have a mom and a dad, some people have two moms, two dads, they might live with their grandparents or aunts and uncles. There's all kinds of families and every type is okay."

I think there was a speech at the end of Mrs. Doubtfire to that effect, so go watch that if you need a refresher.

No one is teaching kids that they should swap genders, however for those that do not feel comfortable with the societal expectations of the gender most commonly related to their sex, those feelings of discomfort can start as early as 5 or 6.

Also, when parents and doctors believe there is a genuine case of gender dysphoria, there is a protocol to follow. Pre-pubescent children would only ever socially transition (clothing, hair, pronouns, name).

If you had any legitimate arguments you wouldn't need to lie about prepubescent children getting their genitals altered because that does not happen.

[ebon perch]

What about say, law-abiding citizens vs repetitive violent criminals. Should the violent criminals be discriminated against?

[clever quest]

No. They are equally deserving of rights as anyone else. You can treat them differently, because they need more help, but there's no reason to treat them badly just because they're in that category.

[ebon perch]

So they shouldn't be in prison?

[clever quest]

If prison is about punishing them, then no. But prison should be about helping them by providing a supportive environment, not punishing them.

It should be a place to go to learn how to behave better, not what it currently is in a lot of places, which is a place to go so everyone else can forget about you.

[ebon perch]

Well I partially disagree with that, but that is a different conversation. So you do agree though, that if someone has something wrong with them, we should try to help them? Not treat them better or worse, but help them?

[deft vapor]

prison is rehabilitation

that's the goal

[ebon perch]

Yes, but that isn't the point of this conversation

We could make a different thread to talk about that further, idk if the old one is still going

[clever quest]

If we remove the option for making prisons what they should actually be, a rehab place, and we can't actually rehab the criminals, then we're forced to make a difficult choice between the good of the few vs the good of the many, so in that case (i.e. the current situation) there is of course a reason to put them in a prison even if it doesn't make them better.

But yes, of course, if someone is experiencing difficulty then we should help them.

in order to bring everyone to the same level

[ebon perch]

Ok, so now we can keep people separated based on actions to help them come to "the same level" as everyone else. You support rehabilitation for crimes, do you support helping people with mental disorders, even if they don't want help?

[clever quest]

I don't support helping anyone who doesn't want help.

[ebon perch]

What if the criminals don't want help? Should they be divoid of prison then, since the goal is helping them?

[clever quest]

Society is a collective. Either you contribute as you can, and get the benefits of the society, or else you do not contribute, and do not get the benefits. If you're not part of the society, and don't want to be, then the society is justified in removing you from their sphere of influence.

Which could be deportation and banishment, or imprisonment

But most criminals do want to be part of the society, I think. So they would choose the rehab.

...if it was available, of course, which it's not in a lot of places.

If, hypothetically, there is a criminal who doesn't want to play by the rules of the society, doesn't want to be helped, and you can't effectively exclude them from your society, then prison might be the best option for them. In that case, what help you give them will depend on where the overlap is between the help you are willing to give, and they help they would like.

[rigid pumice]

It always ends up going here. LGBTQ people are actually just suffering from mental disorders and we are trying to help them.

Except we know what helps them best is being accepted and allowed to live their lives in the way that makes them most comfortable and doesn't harm anyone else. Every attempt to "cure" them has been an utter failure, so the medical protocol is what is most effective.

Now, if there were a magic pill that turned people straight or cis, I would think it should be up to each individual person whether they wanted to take that or not.

And to be clear I don't see these things as mental disorders in the traditional sense because I don't believe them to be harmful to the person or others when you remove societal stigma factor.

We see this through the difference in rates of other mental health issues in those with a stable support system versus those with say families that kicked them out and didn't accept them.

[ebon perch]

I never made that claim? I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I was seeing what Arklar meant by treating people "differently" but not better or worse than other people.

[wintry zodiac]

However many people are not going to play along with the pronouns identity thing, is that something to sue someone over 😂? Idk what makes you think im the type of person to get angry at how popular harry potter is but alright

[wintry zodiac]

Its interesting how yall aint even respond to my other points but alright, Ive already talked about this multiple times and I said that 5 year olds do not need to know that you can be different genders and be gay, Im pretty sure Ive stated this enough and all of this can be home schooled like religious beliefs and other things.

Parents have a right in what they want their kids to be taught, so either you home school kids about LGBTQ or you make seperate schools that are LGBTQ friendly (private schools maybe?), because the amount of people unhappy with what is being taught matters

[frigid flume]

It seems like your only argument against LGBTQ is that it’s annoying for you

Too much work for you to have to worry about their feelings

And talking about bathrooms

[wintry zodiac]

1. It isnt a game, but it is a cultural change that people do not want to play along with, therefore deliberately calls someone by the gender that they dont identify as. Its not even about being rude for them, most simply are not going to play along with the gender identity thing and they shouldnt be punished if they dont want to

2. Its not about refusing to learn and improve, because people simply believe in biological determinism, their own religious and moral beliefs, they fear in social/cultural change in this part, they dont want to change their habits, and for some the gender identity thing feels like a threat to their own values and beliefs, hence why I believe you shouldnt force this upon millions, maybe tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions, and soon enough billions of people.

3. Your perception of things is different than mine, what you might see as homophobic (you see many things as homophobic or transphobic if it offends you) and I dont. You can celebrate your month however by bringing sexual content I consider it being over the top, also with the amount of people not wanting to see the entire LGBTQ celebration dont you think a month is too much, I mean theres so many people that feel discomfort in the LGBTQ celebrations, again they fear social/cultural change, and people hold their values and norms and shouldnt be punished for not changing their own values.

[wintry zodiac]

Nope not at all

Its not "annoyance" although many LGBTQ supporters do annoy me, its more about me not supporting the idea of LGBTQ and MANY things that they support

[frigid flume]

You missed 2

[wintry zodiac]

missed what

wdym

[wintry zodiac]

this?

[frigid flume]

1,3,4

[wintry zodiac]

oh

[clever quest]

2 wasn't relevant to them, it's all good.

[wintry zodiac]

I didnt know what 2 was talking about

lol

[frigid flume]

Oopsie daisy

[near ember]

I hate it when I forget about the number 2

[frigid flume]

When I sit down sometimes I’m reminded of it

[clever quest]

1. I wouldn't say it's a cultural change. It's not like saying someone is a different gender than they are has ever been acceptable. We've just discovered there are more genders than we thought there were.
   It's like travelling to North America and calling everyone a Yank. It might sound fine to begin with, but then you discover that Canada is a thing. Do you keep calling Canadians Yanks, or do you accept that you were wrong and not all Americans are Yanks?
   Or if we discover a new planet, should we continue to say that there are only 8 planets just because we can't be bothered to adjust to new information?
   Or even better, why don't we all just say it's always January 1st in the year 2000? We all know it's not, but that's an easier number to remember and saves having to work out what the correct date is. Also, you're 10 years old and have one arm. And your salary is $10k. It's just easier to remember those numbers, so we'll simplify everything.
   This is a case where there are clear right and wrong answers. When people choose to use the wrong pronouns for other people, they're trying to ignore reality and live in their own imaginary world. Of course people are going to treat you like an idiot if you persist in doing that.

2. People can believe that they are 200 feet tall and have the ability to fly and turn invisible if they want to. Doesn't mean they're right, or that we have to pretend their beliefs make sense, or set up our society to suit those imaginary invisible flying giants. Unfortunately for those people, society needs to live in the real world, and operate by real world rules. If you want to be a part of the society, you need to accept certain basic facts about reality.

[clever quest]

4. I've spent a lot of time recently arguing the point that something isn't discrimination simply because someone gets offended. And for the record, I'm not a member of the LGBTQ+ community. So I think it's unlikely that I personally am going to label something as being transphobic or homophobic simply because it offends me.

We don't have the right to demand that things are hidden from us simply because they make us uncomfortable. Plenty of people feel uncomfortable watching people climb mountains, or participate in boxing matches, so should we stop people advertising those things? I mean, almost any politically active person feels uncomfortable viewing campaign material for opposing parties, so does that mean we need to hide all political campaigning of any kind? Electric cars make a spooky kind of noise, so they're out too. Also all heavy machinery of any kind. And tattoos and piercings. And any sudden movements or loud noises.

It is the reality of our existence that we are constantly needing to adapt to new things. Nothing stays the same. Yes, it's a difficult challenge for us to adapt sometimes. Our culture and society are changing faster now than at any time in the past, and that's causing a lot of difficulties for everyone. It's not a coincidence that right-wing conservative politics are gaining popularity at the moment. Everyone's feeling that change is happening too quickly for comfort, and want someone to tell them that they can just have things stay the same from now on. But unfortunately the change isn't going to stop, and pretending that we can make it stop is only going to make more and more people frustrated that reality doesn't match their expectations. What we need to do instead, is confront the problem and work out ways of adapting more easily, not avoid adapting altogether.

[wintry zodiac]

1. It is a cultural change theres no doubt about it, it depends what you personally define as a cultural change. Also in my perspective, theres only 2 genders, I dont understand what the other genders are and personally I dont even wanna get into it rn.

I dont understand what ur trying to point out after 1. but choosing not to play with the pronoun situation is not ignoring reality, saying we live in a imaginary world also means that you live in a imaginary world because you keep playing around with the pronoun things and making it your entire personality

3. YEAH THATS WHAT IM SAYING, people can believe that they are ze/zir but that doesnt mean they are right 😂. WE dont have to pretend that your ze/zir beliefs make sense or even play along with them. and we DONT have to suit those imaginary ze/zir pronouns, you are so right 😂.Society however does NOT need to implicate the pronoun rules, and thats why im totally against LGBTQ for forcing their beliefs upon everyone else, hence why many should accept basic facts about reality and that there is 2 genders.

[wintry zodiac]

4. I dont know what makes you label me as discriminatory or transphobic or homophobic, however you may not be LGBTQ but you may still support them and share similar if not the same beliefs, hence why you are a LGBTQ supporter. And also hence why you are getting offended so easily.

[wintry zodiac]

I think your "example" is completely irrelevant, people simply dont like LGBTQ celebrations and dont feel comfortable with many of the things they advertise, its NOT the same thing as watching people climb a mountain, not even close. I think you would feel uncomfortable if we started celebrating Anti-LGBTQ movements and views right? I mean they dont have to be transphobic homophobic or discriminatory, they can simply promote the idea of keeping society as it is and promoting cultural norms, and many LGBTQ supporters or members are 100% going to feel uncomfortable and sue the opposers. I mean many would also feel uncomfortable if we celebrated satanism right?

Obviously nothing stays the same, but this is a cultural shift that MANY dont want to happen and dont want to be apart of, and we DO NOT have to adapt to your LGBTQ culture. You are FORCING this movement upon us and its pretty obvious why we are against your movement.

brb

[clever quest]

1. That's your choice to live in ignorance then. You're flat out wrong in your belief that there are only two genders. If you want to continue to believe obviously incorrect information that's up to you, but nobody is going to go out of their way to accommodate you. Again, it's just a question of true and false. LGBTQ+ activists are correct in their understanding of gender, and you are wrong. Nothing is going to change those facts.

2. See above. It's not a matter of opinion. It's an established fact that there are more than 2 genders.

3. I don't believe I have been offended by anything you've said. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?

Would I feel uncomfortable if you started celebrating anti-LGBTQ+ views? Yes, of course. It's always uncomfortable to watch people acting stupidly and disrespectfully, whatever form that takes.
What you may not have realised, is that LGBTQ+ has always been a part of our society. The existence of the full spectrum of gender and sexuality is not a new thing, it's always been there. The only new thing is that more people have finally noticed it. Nobody has a choice about whether or not it exists. It does exist. We can't un-notice it. Nature is the only thing forcing you to adjust to it.

[deft vapor]

i'm like 90% sure skitles is rage baiting at this point

[wintry zodiac]

Wdym

[wintry zodiac]

1. Saying there is more than 2 genders is a fact is crazy, and flat out calling me wrong is also pretty crazy. Im sorry I dont support people who live in their own world thinking theres 79 genders but alright.

2. It is a matter of opinion, and its an established fact that there are only 2 genders, I dont know what other genders there can even be but unless you have different organs and shit then you are probably a male or female, a man or woman, or in other words 1 of those 2 genders

3. I think I did confuse you for someone else my bad lol

Celebrating anti-LGBTQ views is not people acting stupidly and disrespectfully, and thats the problem with any LGBTQ supporter, activist or member. I never said that the anti-LGBTQ would be celebrating transphobic, homophobic or discriminatory content however supporting the idea of 2 genders is not acting stupid or disrespectful, now I can see that you are being offended and getting mad.

LGBTQ has never really been a part of our society, not up untill the last century really. Obviously there have been gay people before but it was never really engraved into society and was mainly because of lack of knowledge. I never said LGBTQ never existed but I am saying that the beliefs that they hold are either wrong or something I do not support, and you cannot force your beliefs upon us. Nature isnt people making rules where you have to play along with the gender pronoun thing that people have in their own worlds

[clever quest]

Yeah, I really don't understand why you keep accusing me of getting offended and now of getting mad. Is that just how you justify people disagreeing with you? You're always right and everyone that disagrees with you is upset and not thinking clearly? Reacting like that is going to make it dificult for you to learn anything going forward, I think.

I dont know what other genders there can even be but unless you have different organs and shit then you are probably a male or female, a man or woman, or in other words 1 of those 2 genders
Yes, some people have different organs. There are more than two different biological setups. So I assume with that knowledge you will now accept that there are more than 2 genders?
How do you define your "two" genders?
If you define them by many characteristics, then there will be a bunch of people who do not fit into either category. If you define them by only a small number of characteristics, then you're going to end up putting a whole bunch of people in one category when they are much more similar overall to people in the other category.
A range of different people exist. Humans do not divide into two discrete categories.

[wintry zodiac]

Obviously there are special cases (like intersex conditions where some people may have XXY or some, but its rare), but there isnt an actual 3rd reproductive organ. Im talking about the 99.99% of the people that are either a man or a woman.

You might be thinking there is more than 2 genders based on what people identify as, but most of it is obviously just their imagination. I define gender as someone that is a biological man or woman.

If there are any intersex people then most likely they are still able to reproduce by either having the characteristics of a man or a woman, obviously there are cases where the genitilia does not resemble either of those. Which are rare cases but if they do have a different genitilia then they can most likely choose either he/him or she/her based on which side they more lean to.

But there certainly isnt a gender called "Beardface" or "Hirsute Winklepicker" or "Agender"

[radiant trout]

I define gender as someone that is a biological man or woman.
No one cares about your definition. Gender includes the social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of being a man, woman, or other gender identity. Gender and sex are BY DEFINITION not the same.

This is for you misinformed statement number 8 in this chat. How can you be so adamant about a subject that you are so ignorant about. You have no clue about gender and sex. You have no clue about LGBT. You openly speak about how you don't want LGBT people having the same rights as non-lgbt people. You openly speak out about how you believe they are mentally unwell.

Stop the act. Inform yourself on the topic. Stop saying all these things that make you look you eat lead for breakfast. If you have an opinion, you can argue and defend your opinion. But stating something false and acting like they are a fact is not the same as stating an opinion.

You obviously have no clue how a debate works. You obviously have no clue how to properly argue. You obviously have no clue what an argument is. You obviously have no clue how to determine the reliabilty of a source.

[rigid pumice]

Parents do not have a right to decide what their kids learn in public schools. Every child deserves the same information. I'm fine with my kid learning about it. You aren't. So we let the educational boards decide. If you dint like it, homeschool.

Imagine the chaos if every parent had the right to veto any subject they didn't like.

[wintry zodiac]

There are 2 definitions, the "official" one that anyone who supports LGBTQ follows, and the opposers of LGBTQ which is someone that is either male or female. Obviously google to not offend anyone added in the identity part but there are 2 definitions EVERYONE follows despite the LGBTQ supporters having it on google. its not just my definition, its also a good 6+ billion other people who follow the same definition if not more

[wintry zodiac]

You guys have started adding in and changing the gender and sex part, I have a lot of knowledge on how these 2 work and typically, they were the exact same throughout history and throughout the world they are considered to be the same. I dont say that LGBT people shouldnt have the same rights as non-lgbt people, but I am openly saying that anyone who doesnt follow or support LGBTQ, should have their rights and should have the ability to not follow through with your pronoun identity situation.
^ Pulling out the random number 8 statement that I am misinformed on is crazy, more like something you disagree on 😂

Im not acting like anything, infact I think you might be always saying im misinformed when I am pulling up legitimate statements and points that you may disagree on but doesnt mean they are false and misinformed

[wintry zodiac]

I can argue and know how a debate works, and typically in a debate you dont have people getting offended every 2 seconds for absolutely no reason, so maybe you should train yourself to have debates in the future

[wintry zodiac]

Parents do have a right to decide what they should learn in public schools, and every child does deserve the same education. Im not fine with my kid learning about it and therefore if you want to teach LGBTQ, homeschool.

Why bring every as a scenario when a HUGE number of parents want this and you cant ignore them

[rigid pumice]

A huge number of parents also don't want sex education in general even though it is the number 1 deterrent to underage sex, unwanted pregnancy, and STDs. It also prevents sexual abuse in younger children because they can understand what is happening, that it is wrong, and that they should report it.

So i don't really care if parents want to keep their kids in the dark about reality, it is important and beneficial information that they need to have.

The fear of information is hilarious. I see it a lot from Christians and Muslims because they control their children by limiting the information they give to them and pretending the only correct way is the one they are providing.

[wintry zodiac]

Sex education is typically signed by parents, typically because they want to teach this topic themselves and may know the right way to teach it for their child

lgbtq isnt "reality" the way you percieve it to be, I dont consider people thinking they are a cat as 'reality" in my books

[rigid pumice]

In 30 states it is compulsory to some degree now, thankfully. If you look at the states with the highest rate of teen pregnancy and the states that dont have comprehensive sex education they overlap nicely.

Gay and trans people exist, that is reality. The cat thing is so tired. Someone made up a story about a litter box and 5 years later people bring it up as if it's real or common. It is neither.

[clever quest]

I define gender as someone that is a biological man or woman.
Yeah, ok, so you're simply ignoring the reality that not everyone fits into either one of those categories. That's fine, you do that. But society isn't going to pretend that your imaginary world is valid.

Which are rare cases but if they do have a different genitilia then they can most likely choose either he/him or she/her based on which side they more lean to.
Why stop there? Why not remove all but one gender and say everyone has to be female? It's close enough, right? I mean, if we're going to force people to fit into specific categories we might as well simplify it properly.

You got it into your head that there were only two genders. That's ok, we understand that. Unfortunately you were misinformed. There are more than two genders. I'm sorry, I know it's difficult to realise you were wrong and get used to a different way of thinking. But you're going to have to do that, because your society acknowledges the truth now and isn't going to revert back to a state of ignorance just to suit you. You don't have the right to enforce your ignorance on others. LGBTQ+ events are fine, they're definitely not going to stop, and so you're just going to have to get used to them. That's the bottom line.

[wintry zodiac]

Gay people and trans people exist, never said they dont. But thats not the point I was making, your perception of reality is different, I personally dont percieve having infinite amounts of genders as "reality", like "Butch" 😂

[wintry zodiac]

1. How am I ignoring the reality that not everyone fits one of those 2 categories, I said that its extremely rare for someone to have mixed genetilia, those are called genetic issues. I said typically those of who have genitilia that doesnt match either, then they could identify as either he or she. However there isnt "Androgyne", this is just made up, hundreds of these genders are simply people wanting to feel unique and living in their own world its not about reality at this point.

2. Because theres 2 genders, 99.9% of the people on earth are either man or woman, anyone who has genetic issues and has unidentifiable genetilia can choose wether to be a man or woman depending on how they feel, however in reality there isnt more than 2 genders and those who physically dont fit these descriptions are simply the only exceptions and have a choice on what they feel like.

Whats next? Are we gonna learn about all the 50 genders instead of the 50 states?

[rigid pumice]

Gender is a spectrum. These are not concrete ideas. We place arbitrary labels on things and try to categorize people based on that, it's what humans do.

Sex is biological, gender is cultural. The way a man/woman expresses themselves in society is largely dependent on the culture. Outside of super strict situations where people are forced to obey gender norms perfectly (some middle eastern countries or Amish communities as example) then yes how you express yourself can vary.

When I was growing up I was into martial arts, motorcycles, musicals, my favorite color was pink, chess, track, basketball, baseball.

Of course in the redneck area I lived people gave me shit about wearing pink and liking musicals. Call me a girl because their tiny brains couldn't comprehend that despite their perceptions there is nothing actually feminine or masculine about any of those things unless we agree there is.

People will often say you need to "be a man" in certain situations. What they mean is to stand up and do what is right generally, but there is nothing biologically masculine about that. So stop pretending that gender is simply the same as sex.

[radiant trout]

I say you are misinformed because 1) you spread obvious misinformation 2) if you make a factual statement you never back it up with any actual data.

The above post is the same. ''I have a lot of knowledge on how these 2 work and typically they were the exact smae throughout history''. If that is your claim, than prove it, instead of just shooting with blanks.

[clever quest]

1. You're literally acknowledging that some people don't fit naturally into those two categories, and then saying that we should just force them to identify with one of your two categories anyway. That is very much an example of trying to ignore reality.

2. What if they don't feel like they are either a man or a woman? What does it even mean to feel like a man or a woman? How do you define that feeling?

[wintry zodiac]

1. Immediately somehow you are wrong, how do I spread "obvious" misinformation, 2) I never claimed those statements to be factual, but rather logical statements.

[wintry zodiac]

Gender being a spectrum is your definition

[radiant trout]

But yeah, if you claim that your definition of gender is true, at least give some sources to back it up. I cannot find ANY biological textbooks, papers or theses that do not make a distinction between sex and gender. But all textbook definitions I can find have two key components:

1. Sex and gender are separate constructions
2. One is biological, the other is a social contstruct

But if you still don't understand, you may want to read this first, and if its still confusing, I have some more literature https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222296/.

[rigid pumice]

Well if we can't agree on definitions then there is no discussion or even argument to be had because we aren't even talking about the same subject.

If you don't even acknowledge that there is nothing male or female about clothing, hobbies, expressions, and that these fall under gender expression, there's nothing to even talk about.

[wintry zodiac]

"be a man" is standing up and doing what is right generally yes, thats what the statement is used for. However historically speaking men were the ones who always fought for what they tought was right, and biologically speaking they were stronger than women so therefore they are considered to be the ones expected to fight, being the one to stand up typically means you are masculine because you resemble those who came before you and typically expect you because you are biologically a man and more meant for the job of fighting someone

[radiant trout]

1. Saying that 5 year olds get to learn about changing their gender in school or any of the other bs you have been saying here

2. If you make a statement that claims something to be either true or false that means it is a factual statement. If you make a factual statement in an argument, either you back it up by some evidence or it has no argumentative value.

So for example, stating something like: "Typically they were the exact same throughout history", then that statement is either true or false, which means you need some evidence in order to back up the statement itself. If you fail to do this because according to you ''its just logic'', than you obviously do not understand how a discussion is held.

If you claim it to be ''just logical'' then it would still require any form of motivation to show WHY it is logical. For example you could show your thought process from the axioms/assumptions you make until the point where you draw a conclusion. This gives room for other people to judge the logic and possible have a fruitful discussion.

What you are doing here however, is claiming your statement is true, without giving any evidence, without giving any motivation, and then getting annoyed when someone calls you out ''because its just logic''

[deft vapor]

Gender is a societal construct and that’s the end of the discussion

Frankly I don’t know how this is still a discussion at this point

Gender is literally cultural that’s the definition

You’re disgustingly underedudated

[rigid pumice]

We also used to roam around in search of food. We found different ways of doing things that benefited people. For the majority of human history we were in survival mode so yes we took on certain roles. Women often died in child birth so they were protected from fighting and dangerous roles because we needed more people.

Things have changed and that is not the case anymore. Because something was a way for a long time doesn't mean that way is better than something new. You need other support besides "that's how we always did it"

[wintry zodiac]

Because there is nothing else to identify as, what else is there apart from a man or a woman to identify as?

Everyone is a man or a woman, you typically would have to choose one because there is nothing else to feel as

[radiant trout]

The audacity and the confidence too, it really grinds my gears

[clever quest]

....All the other genders?

No, not everyone is a man or a woman. You've admitted as much yourself.

[wintry zodiac]

1. yeah they get to learn that changing genders is fine and being gay and all that. (you know that this is what im saying and its true)

2.I have clearly stated that my statement is purely logical and not factual, i dont know why you keep saying that I claim it to be factual and not show proof

[wintry zodiac]

Give me all the other genders

"Aliagender"?

😂

[clever quest]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gender_identities

[wintry zodiac]

All of these genders are made up and isnt actual reality you do realize that

[clever quest]

Do you have any evidence to support that?

[wintry zodiac]

"Vakasalewalewa"

[wintry zodiac]

Do you have any evidence to support that "Aliagender" exists?

Do you have any evidence that any of these genders exist

[clever quest]

Yes. There are a bunch of people who say they are that, and there's nothing to say they're wrong.

[clever quest]

Yes. There are a bunch of people who are them.

[radiant trout]

1. Yeah but that claim is false. No where does it happen. I have asked you multiple times already to then SHOW where this happens and you fail to provide evidence. This is all only true in your head, but does not actually happen in real life

2. You obviously didnt read what I said or are too dumb to understand. A factual statement is a statement that is either true or false.

If you make a logical argument, you still need to SHOW how you got from your assumptions to the conclusion

All you are doing is making a statement and acting like its true

[deft vapor]

90% sure he’s a troll

[deft vapor]

Every gender is made up you dumb fuck

That’s the point

[wintry zodiac]

But is there any actual proof, ignore the part where everyone thinks its real and believes that they are what they call themselves, is there any actual proof that these genders exist

[radiant trout]

Question, up till which point in time do you think there only existed 2 genders? Do you think its only a recent development that people want to assume a gender that is neither male nor female?

[radiant trout]

Either that or mean - 2sigma intelligence

[radiant trout]

Like, he's literally unable to read a word for word sentence and understand it

[wintry zodiac]

I think only 2 genders exist and every existed

[radiant trout]

So what if I tell you that ancient Greeks already wrote about multiple genders existing

[wintry zodiac]

Simply because I disagree with you 😂

[radiant trout]

Why do you keep saying that anything we hold against you is because we disagree

[clever quest]

You ignored the question when I asked you how you defined what it meant to feel like a man or a woman. Yes, there is proof, in people's body chemistry, in how they feel, in how their genes are constituted, in how they feel, and yes, sometimes also in how they visually look from the outside. By any definition of gender, including your own, there are a ton of people who do not fit into only those two categories.

[radiant trout]

It has nothing to do with agreeing with you or not and everything to do with the method and manner of the way you try to convey your opinion.

[wintry zodiac]

Well what are they? Ancient greeks wrote abote greek mythology and I mean do you think any of those gods exist? Is there any actual proof that there is more than 2 genders?

[radiant trout]

If I can find 1 person on earth who does not represent themselves as either male or female, than that disproves the statements that there are only 2 genders.

I can point towards thousands of people that fall in that category

so yes, there is proof there are more than 2 genders

[radiant trout]

The point I was trying to make was that even in ancient societies, it was normalised for multiple genders to exist. Only with the advent of christianity and islam has it faded from culture because people were literally killed if they said they didn't subscribe to being a man or a woman but felt like something else.

[clever quest]

I mean, are you really going to ignore the expert opinion of doctors, as well as the people themselves? What basis do you have for challenging either of those things?

[radiant trout]

''its just logic''

thats literally the only answer i get when I ask for elaboration

''its just logic''

Man this guy is stupid af ngl

Doubt whether he even went to school in the first place

[clever quest]

I mean, we can't accept that as an answer, because just making statements with no basis whatsoever is not actually logic.

Logic needs evidence

[radiant trout]

Brotherman, i tried to explain this 2 times already

[radiant trout]

see this message

his response was: ''its not a factual statement its logic''

[clever quest]

Oh, I've seen, don't worry.

[radiant trout]

I honestly start to feel for this guy

[deft vapor]

Let’s see a proof @wintry zodiac

[radiant trout]

I think he may have some mental problems

And now I feel bad about being annoyed by him

Because he probably cannot help it either

But tat makes you wonder why he feels the need to go onto a public forum and dsicuss this

[deft vapor]

90% sure he’s a troll

[radiant trout]

Yeah idk man

I feel like a troll wouldve given up by now

maybe not idk

probably true and its just ragebait

well it worked

[wintry zodiac]

If I missed any questions its because there is 9 people I have to keep up with

and Im in a game

like rn

[clever quest]

No problem. Take your time and provide your definition and evidence whenever you can.

[wintry zodiac]

The only answer you get for the 2 statements I made about it most likely increasing the SA's with the addition of transgender people

[rigid pumice]

Unfortunately when you bring up a topic this stupid you are going to get a lot of pushback.

If you want validation on your views there are plenty of echo chambers you can find it in, but the fact is that most people support gay and trans rights.

The recent push against trans people pretending it is for children is the same shit they did when trying to fight against gay rights and women's rights and black rights. There is nothing new or valuable in any argument proposed.

[radiant trout]

Yeah but you don't back anything up. its just speculation. If I am asking for elaboration, I am asking for proof, or a train of thought, not just an empty statement.

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah but that doesnt actually prove that there is more than 2 genders, all of that is in their mind and in the way they identify, If I identify as a dinosaur does that mean that there are actual dinosaurs left?

[radiant trout]

Dinosaur as a gender, maybe. Dinasour as in a biological taxon of animals, no ofcourse not.

But the short answer is; if you do not feel male nor female, than that by extension means that there must be more than 2 genders

[clever quest]

You're saying that people should choose a gender identity based on how they feel. How is that different from how all the genders are defined?

[radiant trout]

If a color is neither yellow nor blue, that means there is at least more than 2 colors

same holds for gender

I don't understand where the confusion comes from

You're not here claiming there is only 2 colors, which are yellow and blue. So why you come in here claiming there is only 2 genders, male and female.

It really does not make any sense

There is literally no logic applied

[wintry zodiac]

if in your opinion, someone identifies as anything then that gender exists. I cannot disprove your opinion because its a different view and I cannot change your perception of how things work, I believe that just because if someone thinks they are a cat then there is cats, the word gender itself was never even meant to describe anything apart from man and woman hence why most people still use it to describe man and woman ONLY

[wintry zodiac]

So whats in peoples minds proves to you that there is more than 2 genders

[wintry zodiac]

The difference being that there is 2 to choose from, 2 that exist and arent just in peoples minds

[wintry zodiac]

Not really, because most of these genders come from people who have a either a penis or a vagina and feel like they arent that

[clever quest]

Aren't all feeling in people's minds? Why are some feelings about gender identify acceptable to you, but others not?

[radiant trout]

Well yes. Since sex and gender are two differnt things, naturally you are most likely born with either a penis of a vagina, but that says absolutely nothing about your gender.

[wintry zodiac]

Elaborate what you mean by this question

[wintry zodiac]

Gender was initially meant to describe someone that is either male or female, a man or woman.Only up untill recently that people started making up their own genders in their minds and classified them as real genders

[deft vapor]

What you need to realize is that gender is a societal construct that has no real meaning, so it doesn’t fucking matter of someone wants to identify as something other than man/woman, the least you could do is respect that

[clever quest]

You said that people who don't naturally fit into either the male or female gender category, should choose either male or female based on how they feel.
So you're saying that they can choose based on feelings, but not if their feelings say they are neither male nor female. So I'm asking how you differentiate between the feelings that you find acceptable, and those that you think are wrong.

[radiant trout]

Well, where the problem here lies is that you cannot identify as something that is impossible to be. You cannot identify as another animal, as you are not another animal. There are still boundaries between which, as a human being, you can feel yourself. For example, you cannot identify as a cat, as it is biologically impossible for you to know how it is to feel like a cat. You can however feel non-binary, which means you don't really feel either a man or a woman. There is a big difference in those, and i don't think it's neccesary for you to mock this by acting like you can identify as a cat

[radiant trout]

This is untrue. Sex is what is used to describe someone that is either male or female. Gender started by making a distinction between the societal roles people can fulfil regardless of sex. E.g. we for example assume military personell is a ''manly job''; meaning we assign a gender role to that job. That however does not mean that ONLY men can join the army. Now if a woman enters the army, there is something non-conforming between her sex and gender, as she takes on a job that is historically not associated with her sex.

And that is where the difference is between sex and gender

But you seem to be blind to the fact that sex is not the same as gender.

If all of this discussion was about sex, i would agree with you on most of the points

But since we are talking gender, its a completely different story

And with the military example, the thing of most importance is that gender roles can change throughout time, whereas sex can not

Something that is ''manly'' now does not have to be in the future

[wintry zodiac]

A person cannot feel like they are something that is none existent, gender identity is based on sex and was based on sex. if you are a rare case that being you have different chromosomes like XXY or you are genetically not male or woman, or genetilia wise arent one of those 2, then you choose 1 based on which one you feel most. You cannot feel like you are a "cat" gender

[clever quest]

OK, well then by that logic all the genders clearly exist, because people do feel like they are them.

Or do you think all these people who say they feel a certain way are lying?

[wintry zodiac]

Yeah, and you are a human being, either a man or woman, therefore you cannot identify as something that you arent even though you feel like it.

You proved my point there

[radiant trout]

man and women are about your sex, not gender

You just don't understand the difference do you

Wait let me make it easier

Do you agree that some things are seen as manly and some things are seen as girly

E.g. using make-up and nail polish, would you agree that is seen as a girly activity?

[wintry zodiac]

Some things are seen as masculine and feminine

[radiant trout]

So you acknowledge the existence of gender roles.

Now imagine a situation, where the things you like, or the things you want to do or the way you feel as a person does not fit in the gender-role assigned to you at birth. E.g. you are born with a penis so you are expected to have certain behaviour, but that behaviour is not what you like.

Do you think that happens to people?

[wintry zodiac]

What do you mean

[radiant trout]

For example men that like feminine stuff

or women liking masculine stuff?

[wintry zodiac]

nope thats not gender roles

not really atleast

[radiant trout]

thats not an ansewr to my questin

Do you believe that men can like feminine stuff, women that like masculine stuff, or people that simply like both or neither?

[wintry zodiac]

because we havent set our definition and perspective on what we view as gender roles or whats masculine and feminine

[radiant trout]

Its a simple yes or no questin

Do you believe that men can like feminine stuff, women that like masculine stuff, or people that simply like both or neither?

its not that hard of a questoin

[wintry zodiac]

thats not the question im trying to answer yet

[radiant trout]

But it is the question i want ot have answered

Do you believe that men can like feminine stuff, women that like masculine stuff, or people that simply like both or neither?

[wintry zodiac]

Im saying gender roles are not the same as what can be masculine or feminine

[radiant trout]

Do you believe that men can like feminine stuff, women that like masculine stuff, or people that simply like both or neither?

[wintry zodiac]

😂

[radiant trout]

Do you believe that men can like feminine stuff, women that like masculine stuff, or people that simply like both or neither?

[wintry zodiac]

Yes

[radiant trout]

you believe that men can like feminine stuff, women can like masculine stuff, or people that simply like both or neither

Great

So you believe in more than 2 genders existing