💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

physical sports can have larger teams because theres no cooldowns to track and players are interchangable

[muted condor]

WT is the best version of the finals and no one can change my mind

[compact tundra]

Like I'm ok with 5v5 but then if a teammate goes cloak and dagger you've lost 1/5 of your team. Meanwhile in 8v8 it's ok to go down to a 7v8 and hope your dagger gets picks

[chilly granite]

yeah, and I thik 8v8 is a great casual mode for that reason, but even in comp tf2, you can't do spy because the enemy team will have 6 useful players

[sudden pewter]

Real but PB can be super frustrating since there’s an OBJ beyond “get kills don’t die”

[muted condor]

Thank god you’re here

[chilly granite]

like, if you're asuming comp, youu're assumign playing vs 8 effective enmies, not 7

[compact tundra]

But that's for different reasons, that's cause of the double tanks dominance in meta because tanks were heavily favored in that game. The finals could easily make it work

[sudden pewter]

There’s dumbasses that just siphon coins because they can’t wait for a revive

[chilly granite]

bro u think finals doesn't have tank mmeta

[muted condor]

Read up the chat please. These people are clinically insane

[sudden pewter]

I’m always here in spirit, my child

[unkempt moss]

I've been replaced by bow user. That's about all that's happened.

[compact tundra]

That's fair but I love how you can genuinely pick any weapon besides my beloved forgotten step child of riot shield and it works or has a use case

[chilly granite]

there's perfectly intelligent people who syphon coins because embark ui devs decided to make it say infinite coins when you don't have infinite coins

don't make excuses for embark's shit decisions

[sudden pewter]

My friend I just got into the game decided to play melee light (he is forever tainted) and even though he’s shit the pure chaos of the mode allows him to get picks

It’s a blessing and a curse

[muted condor]

They want to rework 1/3 of the game for no reason

[sudden pewter]

Explain

[unkempt moss]

More like 4/5

[sudden pewter]

Is it bow fella? He’s a lost cause

[unkempt moss]

He saw me talking about the gateway on heavy and doesnt understand that its part of a large number of changes

[sudden pewter]

Not sure what you expected

[chilly granite]

oh wait I thought you were replying to my tf2 comment

I think tf2 comp also killed itself on 6v6

the average limit of working memory is roughly 6, so asking spectators to keep track of two teams of 6 is crazy when you're trying to appeal to a general spectator audiance

[unkempt moss]

Because I said I was reworking several gadgets and guns and he thinks its solely to work gateway in to the heavy class

[chilly granite]

gateway is fundmanetally broken and even the best players are barely exploting it

[muted condor]

No gooking

[indigo nexus]

Excluding the aforementioned core game mechanics (which I think would justify my stance alone), a gameplay loop where several teams of three traverse around a much larger map to compete over those small, time-based objectives.

[sudden pewter]

Oh no

[muted condor]

Bro wants to rework every heavy gadget and spec and give it gateway

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/miserable-crying-sad-tears-black-guy-gif-12326280655494835815

[muted condor]

We need to euthanize him

[unkempt moss]

Still not understanding that it's part of a larger patch. One that removes defib, gives Vanish to Medium, and reworks turret.

There's dozens of changes in the patch and he locked on to a statement about the newest change.

[muted condor]

You named one good thing. Some how the broken clock was only right once today

[unkempt moss]

Sorry, its finals 2.0. I know you guys love this stale meta shit but I'm going all out instead of "what if we reduce BFR fire rate by 2 because then it has a slower ttk than this gun i do like"

[muted condor]

Look at the flowers

[chilly granite]

but yeah, 6v6 is bad for spectators because it's too mcuh moving parts for plebs to keep track of

[unkempt moss]

I'll keep it to myself. Its just a passion project anyway.

[chilly granite]

same with 3v3v3v3

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/look-at-the-flowers-twd-carl-sad-gif-13413320

He spent to much time in #👂┇game-feedback

[chilly granite]

I fail to see what here majorly affects weapon balance beyond obligating corridor shooting and obligating cqb

by contrast if anything, tdm shows weapons are their best because you can force favourable engaugments more easily than in cashout

[muted condor]

Weapons play differently in cash out and TTK doesn’t matter as much

[chilly granite]

and more skilled playres will alos be more skilled in creating favourable fights for their wepaons in cashout, so balancing for the weapons' peak performance in tdm is more important

so that weapons aren't overpowered in the hands of best players in cashout

[chilly granite]

while this is somewhat true, I think the arn is a good example of this. The xp is non-viable in tdm, but while it's usable in cashout, the arn/m11 (the very reason it's useless in tdm) are still better than it

honestly both DB and m11 should have falloff start at 7.5 meters to create more space for waepons like (old) v9s and xp54

[unkempt moss]

Just remember Catter, when the servers are being shut down, your people chose this guy as your champion.

[chilly granite]

with db/m11 at 7.5m falloff start the v9s and xp54 both would be more viable in all modes and the power level of the m11/db isn't unplayably bad

play light for a season and then tell me your hotttest takes

[sudden pewter]

10m timeout for this btw

[unkempt moss]

Wtf why?

[chilly granite]

racial slur gooking abbrevated

[sudden pewter]

Your name abbreviated is a slur supposedly.

[unkempt moss]

Oh I didnt even notice it

[chilly granite]

it very much is a slur, althgouh pretty dated

I don't think anyone born after 1975 has used it ever

[muted condor]

A great example is actually bow. Landing one head shot on the enemy heavy does more to win you the round on cashout than killing a heavy 3 times in TDM. You take away a heavies ability to steal your cashout instantly even if you don’t get the kill

[chilly granite]

tell that to the enemy heavy who steals under me 😢

[muted condor]

Kills don’t matter getting the cash is all that matters

[chilly granite]

this guy didn't get the memo he was supposed to stop pressing button

[muted condor]

If you land the head shot before they try to steal it stops them from even attempting it

Not what I’m talking about

[chilly granite]

I mean, the h+ can outheal the bow's dps on headshots

[muted condor]

If they are half health they have to heal but before going for it and that wastes time

[chilly granite]

so I don't think your point is real anyway

[muted condor]

H+ is fucking stupid and shouldn’t have been added

[chilly granite]

I agree

but it does exist in its current form

[muted condor]

Also that means their light is not putting out did and easy to kill

[unkempt moss]

Do you want to hear the reasoning behind it or is it just a hard no?

[muted condor]

If they have a pocket light you can ignore the heavy and get a free light kill

[serene glade]

🔌

[unkempt moss]

Nama, pull it. Please.

[chilly granite]

ok, so basically, burst damage is good in high ranked because you hit them and they're intelligent enouhg to not just naked steal with no hp

whereas in my ranks they just naked steal with no hp and their team heal them so it doesn't count for shit

[muted condor]

That’s also why you have more ways than just killing the stealer to stop it

[sudden pewter]

I’m very much against The Finals 2.0 because I like The Finals and with a few adjustments it could be perfect. On one hand I want to respect the work you put into your manifesto but on the other I want to spank you as you’ve been a very naughty boy.

[unkempt moss]

Alright.

[muted condor]

Actually yeah pretty much

[sudden pewter]

I’m willing to give it a read, I’m sure there’s some nuggets of gold in there

But if there’s a “give the sniper irons” I will pull poop out of my ass and start finger painting

[slender fiber]

too many modern style guns add more early 20th century guns

[muted condor]

In higher ranks teams will usually have three ways to stop a steal and work together to do it

[indigo nexus]

those by themselves are quite a lot... but tight-knit teamplay with three players makes a major difference too

[unkempt moss]

There's something worse, so I'll just keep it in the back pocket.

[serene glade]

we should add more hitscan weapons i think

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1196056960223674411/1400998710065893518/attachment.gif

[muted condor]

Heavy can brute force a steal against uncoordinated teams but if even two people work together it stops that

[chilly granite]

I still don't think that improving matter's spread would actually make it op

[unkempt moss]

Yeah, something called the Chimera. Its not worth getting in to.

[indigo nexus]

Well, I agree

[chilly granite]

and it would make it significantly better in actauly TDMey situations

[unkempt moss]

Light doesnt gave a weapon named after Greek mythology so I named it that.

[sudden pewter]

Do other archetypes have one?

[chilly granite]

I don't think any of my weapon balance takes would actually ruin cashout, even if they are slightly better

are high ranked lobbies full of bows right now?

[muted condor]

Also light is better for finishing kills in cash out and shouldn’t focus on winning 1v1s as much

[chilly granite]

cerberus and ??

[sudden pewter]

Is there a Greek Lewis?

[unkempt moss]

Titan and cerberus.

[sudden pewter]

I totally forgot it’s called the BFR titan and not just the BFR ngl

[serene glade]

Beef titan

[unkempt moss]

Beefer

[sudden pewter]

Big Fucking Revolver - Titan

[unkempt moss]

Thats what they called me in elementary school.

[muted condor]

BFR stands for Bitch Fuck Rancid

[muted condor]

He was a teacher

[chilly granite]

I do think it would affect the cashout meta, but I don't think that balancing weapons for tdm would really ruin cashout meta

the main changes are that arn neeeds a cqb nerf, m11 should probably have worse max falloff and worse falloff start

flamethrower reach should probably be slightly worse with significantly better dps to compensate

the flamethrower is "balanced" right now, but in tdm with smaller maps, it's signficantly harder to counterplay

[serene glade]

This game will be forever stale and horrible balancing around multiple modes

[chilly granite]

and that's somewhat bourne out in close quaters in cashout maps

on the larger cashout maps its awful

[muted condor]

Balancing around a side casual game mode is a horrible idea

[unkempt moss]

We have been defeated this day. The battle goes to Bow User and his underling Norcomma. For now we retreat and mend our wounds.

[chilly granite]

you realise that cs1.6 was balanced around casual gameplay and deathmatch servers?

they didn't even change the balance much at all for pro play in any of the games

[muted condor]

At least now user has bad takes because they play a different game

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cute-adorable-punch-gif-17822730

[serene glade]

Cs is for homosexuals and Russians so I did not know that

[muted condor]

CS players also spend thousands of dollars on dog shit copy and pasted png skins

[unkempt moss]

They continue to pummel me and you refuse to drag my unconscious body out of here.

[chilly granite]

I mean, balancing for casuals should always take priority because casuals are the lifeblood/cashcows and spectators of esports

[muted condor]

Balancing around side game mode that is not the actual game is not balancing for casual play

[chilly granite]

not assuredly deathmatch casuals, it should be themost populus casual mode

[serene glade]

You gotta get the patch notes ready bud. Or else we are cursed to flamethrower and grenade launchers being stuck because they are a minor inconvenience occasionally in point break and tdm

[chilly granite]

you preempt my calirfication bitch

[muted condor]

TDM is purely for shits and giggles or warm up

[chilly granite]

😄 lol

anyway, in csgo, economy effects weapon balance in non-tdm modes but finals doesn't have that

so balancing around flat weapon balance in tdm would be fine

maps should probably bemore representittive of real gameplay though

[unkempt moss]

I said the day is lost! We do not have the resources to fight a two front war. We must focus on our foes in Slimestantinople

[chilly granite]

the biggest change to make stall less effective and to make cashout weapon balance more similar to tdm weapon balance is just longer cooldowns on all util and no reset on death

but that's a change that should happen anyway becuase right now there's not much tactical depth to using gadgets

[serene glade]

Slime, lp, slime, lp, slime, lp, slime, lp, donkey kick, ca

[chilly granite]

why even have cooldowns if thery're gonnna be up for every damn fight

cough cough evasive dash cough cough

[unkempt moss]

The lands of the People's Republic of Finals are barren. Xi Ping has seen to that.

[muted condor]

We need to purge some of these people

[serene glade]

Thursday the shackles release for good

[chilly granite]

48s cd on rpg and teamwipe is a 25s cd so if the fight is more than 20s, then they' have rpg by the time you resawpn

very restricted very tactical

[serene glade]

That would be a fair argument if the rpg was something you click and the fight just instantly wins

[unkempt moss]

We must hold hope that things can bloom in these barren lands. The people dont know they are at fault, they only know consume and watch state sanctioned esports.

[chilly granite]

liteearlly doesn't matter, there should be a decision ot use it in a fight, not just a use it every fight in the best way possible and hope that you wi

saveing resources should be optimal in some circumstances

if you die without having used RPG you have done somethign wrong

alternatively gateway

[serene glade]

3rd parties

[chilly granite]

40s cd, so again, you have it for every fight that lasts longer than 15s

[muted condor]

Gadgets come back fast because that’s fun

[chilly granite]

and how reliable are third parties in final round??????????

[serene glade]

Like an effective 3rd party push will catch you without CDs

[serene glade]

Well the final round is lame so

[indigo nexus]

it would be a different meta, a generally worse one.

[chilly granite]

gadgets coming back fast becasue it's fun is a 10s cd not 40s

[muted condor]

3rd parties is already almost a guaranteed win so longer cool downs would be worse

[chilly granite]

third parties/3v3v3v3 doesnt belong in a ranked mode anyway

and 3rd parties owuld be signfiicantly nerfed if cooldowns persisted over death, which is the other half of my arugment

[unkempt moss]

Googs-san! Please! You are outnumbered!

[serene glade]

If ranked was 1v1 I might send mail to embark. Pipey

[chilly granite]

are there any specific balance changes you think would cause issues in cashout and why?

if you wnat to play cahsout play world tour

[muted condor]

If cooldowns were longer half the gadgets would suck ass

[chilly granite]

3v3v3v3 is ass for an "esport" mode

some gadgets can be differentiated by having avilability for every fight, such as frag and flash

[placid slate]

2 minute long smoke grenades cooldown

[chilly granite]

smoke is already 50s cd/9s duration, 100s cd if you use both

[muted condor]

Why wouldn’t you have gadgets for every fight?

[chilly granite]

that's why nobody uses smoe when you can use goo

[serene glade]

@unkempt moss retreat!

[muted condor]

That’s literally the point of the game if I didn’t want gadgets every fight I’d go play cod or battlefield

[chilly granite]

I would be fine with gadgets being a cooldown of like 5-20s, and being balanced around potential multi use in one fight, and being expected in literally every fight, but right now the game is in a weird middleground where a team that wipes fast will punishyour cd's because they get reset on death, third parties can push cds, but cds aren't long enough for tactical decision making on when to use an important gadget is a major factor

[muted condor]

Yes they are

You just have to push at the right time

[chilly granite]

when to skip using a gadget for an entire figth** is an important factor

there should be tactical advantage to holding stuff in reserve but there isn'

beyond being slightly better equipped to deal with third parties

keep in mind I'm coming from a dota background here

my background is mostly dota, csgo, and quake-likes

[muted condor]

You’re supposed to use all your gear in a fight that’s how the game was made

[chilly granite]

quakeclones jsut have resource managment via what resources you can pull from the map itself

csgo has a per round economy, so saving money/doing a light investment in a fight is an important resource

dota has some short cooldowns, some long cooldowns. Some spells are meant to be used in every fight, but some are meant to be used only when it's perfect

the finals with death cd reset, long death timer and long walk to fight has no economy at all

[muted condor]

That’s the point

[chilly granite]

in every fight there will have been an optimal time to use the gadget and if you didn't, then you made a mistake

[muted condor]

It’s a game show, you should be using everything available to you and making a show of it

[chilly granite]

then cooldowns should be shorter so you can use multiple in a fight for spectical

death timers should be shorter too to compensate

and less spawning 200m away and walking for a min to get there

thats very gameshow watching a team walk to the ojbective

[slender fiber]

dota also has mana which i never understood

[indigo nexus]

Not really, since I don't play TDM and don't have that much knowledge on it. I am just confident this would be a bad overall philosophy.

[chilly granite]

any of the ideas that I've suggested that come to mind? because those are basically the only signfiicant ones right now, tdm weapon balance is genereally quite good

[muted condor]

Gadgets are in the best possible cool down right now because you are able to use the on average 1/2 times a fight so you can’t just spam them and need to be optimal but it’s short enough that you actually use them every time and have them for 3rd parties

[chilly granite]

theres two opposing ideas of the finals and they simply dont agree on balancing

gameshow or esport

[muted condor]

Then there’s the third one
TDM players that don’t want to play The Finals

[chilly granite]

if that were true i would play one of the alterantives (tf2, r6s, csgo)

[muted condor]

R6 is not an alternative to the finals and never say that again

I will find you and your dog

[chilly granite]

it's the most similar in terms of having gadgets for every fight

and in that being shitty design

tf2 has mana for economy on medic for the uberchage effectively

and thats basically what comp tf2 is balanced around

[sudden pewter]

I enjoy TDM but it isn’t a replacement for vanilla finals. Game shouldn’t be balanced around it

Holy fuck I’m late

[chilly granite]

ther's no weapon economy so i don't see how cashout significantly affects interplay of weapons

cb op in cashout, cb op in tdm

is the bow signfiicantly op in cashout right now?

[muted condor]

The fact that you don’t understand why is why hate on the takes so much lol

[chilly granite]

I undrstand it has some impact, but not significant

like, weapon tier lists from cashout content creators are almost identical to tdm, and most of the differences can be attirbuted to the specific maps and layouts of tdm mpas

and tdm class meta being light favoured because light is more fun

p90 is stronger tdm than cashout because its' easier to keep people in cqb, cb is even better because light spam

flamethrower strong same reason, i stand by my opinon that flamethrower has too mcuh reach and should lose reach gain dps though

[muted condor]

Flamethrower is already mid

[chilly granite]

lots chip damage in tdm make flame better, combined with good reach on tight maps make it significantly better than cashout

i think ft dps is too bad for cashout but reachis too good, not sure on numbers but feels big reach

biggest outliers in tdm stats are for sure flamethrower and dagger

ft benefits the most of any wepaon from chip damage and cqb

dagger loses the most to not having objectives enemy need to focus

flamethrower also best against light

(like, if light is obligated tobe in room with flamethrower)

in cashout harder to force situation where light must face flamethrower in same room

but good player can abuse so i think fair to balance ft around it

ft has 7.5m reach

basically the entire room for the practice range house

7.5m rounded 8

[muted condor]

I mean yeah it’s not a melee weapon

[chilly granite]

8.3ish? m

[muted condor]

Bro wants the already mid weapon to be even more mid

[chilly granite]

you can cover an entire room by walking 50cm

[sudden pewter]

The light cannot possibly comprehend that the 150HP does not perform well in prolonged engagements against the 350HP enemy in its weapons effective range

Many such cases

[chilly granite]

the practice range house room is fairly lrage

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-worm-cat-worm-catworm-ai-generated-gif-11758626355945811640

[chilly granite]

many rooms are significantly smaller

I don't think the ft would be either useless or melee, with 5.5m range

[muted condor]

Congratulations it’s now completely useless

[chilly granite]

sledge is 2m

spear 4m

[muted condor]

It’s already outclassed by every melee and shotgun so doing that would take it from mid to just bad

[chilly granite]

i did say also give it a bunch more dps

flame thrower, if it touches you, should fucking hurt

but it should be possible to kite in builidngs, even if difficult

right now even in big room, heavy can FT and spin circle and cover entire oroom

room in discussion

i think 7.5 shoudl be where falloff start for m11/db

maybe 7.5 too mean for m11, maybe 8.5 for m11

[calm ivy]

Skin-idea : for the gateway : two ospuze-cans as throwables and the fizz effevt as port particles

would at least add one skin to it

[chilly granite]

i also want buffs for the fire afterburn, so that would also help the flamethrower secure kills on enemies who break range

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/jonah-hill-i-guess-bro-bro-i-guess-ok-man-gif-6278747235421617446

[chilly granite]

do u not think that flamethrower should better reaward players who position effectively with it?

right now its too easy so u can't make it rewarding to hit people with it

so its just kinda mid

[compact tundra]

Wait wait wait, are we talking flamethrower, 1 sec let me read up

[muted condor]

It fine as is because it’s a good weapon for less skilled players but doesn’t invalidate good players

Making it deal more damage with less range will only fuck over melee even more while making it worse at fighting every other weapon

[chilly granite]

The benefit should be for people who can't aim but can position, a weapon that makes both easy is just dumb

Being able to cook a whole ass room without moving isn't cool

[compact tundra]

Flamethrower isn't as positioning focused as melees. Flamethrowers main bonus is how it's more forgiving than most guns and melees but suffers with a sub par ttk to compensate. Flamethrower is more for people who really wanna milk value out of there specs and gadgets more than get value out of their positioning. If positioning was your main skill then spear, sledge, or SA would do you better

[muted condor]

Your suggestion makes it instantly invalidate melee while not actually changing anything that make it mid anyways

[chilly granite]

Flamethrower is already somewhat a melee counter

[muted condor]

And it would be even more so

[chilly granite]

That's fine? That's it's niche?

[compact tundra]

The ttk's are it's balancing against that. It falls into the cl-40 problem where it's great against lights and suffers against everyone else

[muted condor]

While being worse at literally everything else

[chilly granite]

Which is why I propose buffing ttks for cutting reach

[sudden pewter]

God forbid a weapon is niche and not applicable in every situation imaginable

[compact tundra]

Then it's just a melee weapon

[chilly granite]

No? 6 metres is not meele

[sudden pewter]

This is why we need irons on the sniper, so I can turn it into a shotgun 😤

[compact tundra]

Flame isn't melee or a gun, it's this cool in-between with a heavy focus on utilizing your items effectively

[compact tundra]

If we added a pike it would be like 8m

[muted condor]

A weapon that’s entire being used killing a single weapon type without them being able to fight back and losing to the other 90% of fights isn’t niche it’s bad game design

[chilly granite]

I also proposed making the M11 and dB falloff at 7.5m

Making flamethrower 6m fits nicely between that and melee options while making it less dominant in cqb

[muted condor]

That would be like adding a weapon that auto tracks and one shots enemies that are more than 50m away. Sure it kills the sniper every time but is literally useless if the enemy is at 49m

[serene glade]

i love how quickscope and barrel stuffing sniper is just the best way to play it

[chilly granite]

Most people are already using the flamethrower within 6m, people aren't deliberately max ranging it

[compact tundra]

No it would handicap the flamethrower into a weird spot where not its effective range is far shorter and far easier to escape. We don't need a niche melee counter, all guns already do that when played well, it would be a redundancy that only nerfs the weapon unless we make it melt people in which case it'd be hated and nerfed to be the worse version

[chilly granite]

For most users it would practically just be a DPS increase

[muted condor]

And that’s a dog shit idea lmao

[chilly granite]

And small rooms would still be easily covered? We're talking about a 1.5m radius decrease

[compact tundra]

Uh no, the range on flamethrower is a huge upside to it, it makes the flamethrower hard to escape and good at chasing, something most melees lack

[muted condor]

I normally to to be nicer but this idea of just horrible plain and simple there is nothing good about it

[carmine relic]

w

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/discord-memes-ksi-thick-of-it-mods-discord-mod-gif-2830572923502966674

[muted condor]

You’re suggesting making it harder to fight ranged enemies that it already can’t win against and a instant win against the weapon type that already sucks

[surreal snow]

hello

[chilly granite]

u guys do know how far current reach is right? it's 8m displayed in game

[indigo nexus]

I view melee as a flamethrower counter (kinda)

[chilly granite]

it is (for some weapons ) rn becuase dps is ass on flamethrower, but conceptually it shoulnd't be

some are correctly countered by flamethrower

[muted condor]

Yeah, that 8m is the only reason you can even kill lights at all

If it’s shorter you would never kill another light

You can already just walk backwards and kill the heavy as a light against flamethrower

[chilly granite]

the heavy should sprint becuase shooting walk speed on light is slower than heavy sprint speed

[muted condor]

Flamethrower is a low skill flow weapon made for players that have a harder time aiming and lets them help the team without hurting the good players

[chilly granite]

right now that's a trade but if the dps was better then heavy could sprint catchup and win the tfight

[muted condor]

It’s perfect at what it does already

Changing it just makes it worse and just shit or a skill less instant win

[chilly granite]

7.5 in game

5.5m

100fov

I'm saying maybe 6 or 6.5m

most lowskill flamethrowers play angles that put them well within 6m anyway

[muted condor]

If you’re looking for a saturation weapon that doesn’t require perfect aim and rewards positioning you’re looking for the mini gun

[sudden pewter]

Take that back

[chilly granite]

yeah that's not an accurate desciption of the minigun in the finals at all

[muted condor]

I’m not insulting mini gun I’m just stating that’s what it is. It rewards positioning not aim

[chilly granite]

that is litearlly not true

[sudden pewter]

It could reward aim more Ishallah

[muted condor]

Silence

[chilly granite]

the per bullet damage is too high/dps too low to make aim not matter within it's spread

[sudden pewter]

I tried to destroy a Zipline from around 10M and it took 200 bullets of my available 250

[muted condor]

It’s in a perfect spot. I love my minister gun

[chilly granite]

I think the minigun should have lower per bullet damage with more rate of fire and spread to make it more of a reliable saturation weapon

[muted condor]

Just point it at the high chest area and home fire. No perfect aim needed

[sudden pewter]

I think you should take a break from discord

[muted condor]

Don’t fucking suggest anything about the mini gun

[slender fiber]

give heavy sandvich equipment item

[chilly granite]

spread at 7.5m is literally the size of a light's torso, that's not a saturation weapon, and you actually need to hit most shots for good ttk

objectively not a saturaiton weapon

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/stone-casting-throw-stones-gif-17442163

[muted condor]

You dont even know how to play mini gun so hush

[chilly granite]

m11 spread same distance

[muted condor]

You saturate the enemy light’s entire body with bullets simple as

It’s perfectly balanced and is in right next Shak as a example to all other weapons of what they should be

[sudden pewter]

Oscar please smite this fool 🙏

Cannot believe it, he wants the minigun to be:

• Less Accurate
• Fire Faster
• Deal Less Damage
  When it already takes insane positioning to make use of it due to the windup and LoS requirement. Blud wants to make it weaker when enemies run away

[chilly granite]

no

net more dps

behave more as a delete button to an area

[analog pewter]

They should buff mini by making it hold into its spin for a little longer

[sudden pewter]

I’d be down for that, but it’s definitely on the cusp of being OP and once the hivemind detects it, game over

[chilly granite]

it would require significant tuning to not be op

oh u mean holding spin

i mean I stand by that take good take

[sudden pewter]

It’ll just take one Finals grifter to release the SLEEPER OP PICK??? video and it’ll all come crashing down

[compact tundra]

All I beg for is for the rev to be moved back to the alt fire. I need this to come back please embark

[muted condor]

I ALREADY IS

This guy

[analog pewter]

Slower spin decay would be perfect. Just a teensy bit

[muted condor]

I’m going to find and steal his dog

[chilly granite]

@indigo nexus can u plz explain how a greater spread and lower per bullet damage/higher rate of fire would improve theminigun as a saturation weapon im feeling too sick to type

[muted condor]

I’d be down for that. Doesn’t keep full spin but loses is slower

[muted condor]

That’s just the SA12 but with extra steps

[sudden pewter]

RMB already revs the gun boo

[chilly granite]

thats not remotelytrue

[muted condor]

Days like this make me glad Embark doesn’t listen to the community

[chilly granite]

wait for light to have 180hp next patch and eat your worsds

[placid slate]

I wish embark listened to the spear community

[muted condor]

Big spread extremely high dps at pointblank rang
Literally SA12

[sudden pewter]

“Wait for Embark to make a stupid decision and vindicate me”
Sure 👍

Minigun isn’t a shotgun

[muted condor]

Yes they should listen to all 4 of us

[stoic garden]

5*

[unkempt moss]

Neither is the KS23 lmayo

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/poopman-poop-stain-homunculus-gif-5894943418330622711

[placid slate]

Exactly, we are way more cohesive as a result

[compact tundra]

Na aiming revs the gun. I have my aim button and alt fire bound separately for sword optimization. When minigun first came out I could rev without the ADS's zoom and it was amazing, I want it back

[sudden pewter]

Sure, it’s QoL.

[stoic garden]

did this creature shit on the sofa

[sudden pewter]

Streakmarks never hurt nobody

It’s called aura, obviously you wouldn’t understand

[stoic garden]

black mold has more aura

[chilly granite]

that's an accurate descriptoin of the sa12 and a saturaiton weapon but a saturatino weapon keeps better performance at dsitanfe

[indigo nexus]

well, it makes it a lot more consistent, and inconsistency is usually a bad thing because the upper side of the spectrum (doing better than you expected) is less likely to carry the outcome of the fight given that you're choosing to do this to begin with, whereas the lower end will absolutely lose you the fight.

Becomes negligible once you get to minigun level though

[chilly granite]

not sure if i agree about ngligable at mingun level even testing on bots in practice range I get inconsistentcy

[muted condor]

This guy wants to rework one of the most balanced and fun weapon in the game because…. Oh that’s why HE DOESNT KNOW HOW TO PLAY IT

[chilly granite]

light bots, its porbaly fine against m/h bots, i didnt test

[unkempt moss]

Honestly Bow User kinda cooking with these minigun changes.

[indigo nexus]

It's very unlikely indeed to alter the outcome of a fight, that pretty much only happens when fighting a hurt light at long range

[sudden pewter]

Cold take but I don’t want the minigun to be more consistent in CQC given the largest priority any given foe has when they see a minigun is to get out of CQC and by the weapons design you don’t have the mobility to chase them

[muted condor]

We should rework the bow to shoot shotgun like arrows with a longer draw time and low range fr

[chilly granite]

the arrows are already the size of matters' inner spread at 7meters

[muted condor]

No head shots ether because it’s a shotgun now

[unkempt moss]

Yeah, you didnt know that?

[indigo nexus]

you know, I don't think I've ever played a game with such a weapon. Neat idea

[chilly granite]

so that's already the case and I'm complained to embark about it mulitple times

and the arrow has crazy high drag in my testing, so realistic range is about 25m

[serene glade]

apex had scattercaps attachment for bow where not adsing made it spread shot

[muted condor]

Apex actually had arrows that shattered when you shot it

[chilly granite]

youre literally describing the bow as its balanced right now, and probaly one of it's biggest advantages (and one of it's biggest weaknesses)

[unkempt moss]

Great you summoned the APEx gamers

[serene glade]

im aping

[chilly granite]

I also told embark that they should either give the bow worse bodyshot daamge and a 1.75/2x hs multi or no headshot muilti

[unkempt moss]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Bow User do more research on the bow in one evening than either of you have about minigun in your life. Probably best to let him handle these balance changes

[chilly granite]

your understanding of the bow is so surface level your jokes about its balance are self defeating

[muted condor]

I’m saying make the draw time slower, remove the head shots and make it spread like the SA

[unkempt moss]

He's kinda the research and development guy.

[muted condor]

WOW! I wonder why I fucking was making that comparison!

[chilly granite]

spread like the SA would improve it's consistentcy at both close and long range lmao

[serene glade]

i think bow is lame and boring right now

[chilly granite]

the minigun is both conceptually and technically significantly simpler than the bow and I've used weapons that are equivalent in other games, as well as similar wepons in this game

[unkempt moss]

When?

[muted condor]

It’s almost like I was making a joke about making balancing suggestions on a weapon I don’t know anything about or something

[chilly granite]

(m11)

[serene glade]

[chilly granite]

I don't think being 50% faster fire rate than m11 counts as a saturation weapon tbh

[muted condor]

Bro went and proved my punch line

[unkempt moss]

No youre supposed to say something so I can respond Did I ask?

[chilly granite]

you act like ther's anything to know on the minigun

[placid slate]

Shattercaps?

[unkempt moss]

So true, king.

Change your name to BowKing now

[serene glade]

i know your deceptions

[unkempt moss]

You've earned it by dunking on these fella

[muted condor]

Yeah

[chilly granite]

the minigun has like, 8 balancing metrics, all except spinup and ads spread are shared with all other automatic hitscan guns in the game

[unkempt moss]

How?

[muted condor]

More than on bow

[chilly granite]

do I need to show you the ttk spreadsheets?

how about the velocity spreadsheet?

What about the hitbox measurements?

[unkempt moss]

Yes

[muted condor]

I’m convinced this guy doesn’t like the game

[solid heart]

I reported embark to the BBB so they’ll be forced to respond to me or there will be legal action taken against them🤷‍♂️ if they refuse to listen to player feedback and would like to continue to drive their games into the ground then that’s on them. But I won’t let the finals die because they refuse to actually fix the game.

[unkempt moss]

Pop off, king. I supported your message the other day.

[serene glade]

boycott boycott boycott

[unkempt moss]

You'll have to explain these to the simple minded minigun user.

[muted condor]

I no like number

To much think

[unkempt moss]

Bow-kun dropping absolute nukes on these fools

[sudden pewter]

You already posted this in #👂┇game-feedback
Avoid spamming

[chilly granite]

so this one is my most accurate testing on the velocity

took 5 samples 3.5/4.5/33.5m, 10 samples at 11.5/22.5m

the flight time is the time from the bow release animation to the arrow hitting hte wall animation, the speed is the frame time /distance, and the plus/minus is the possible error from recording

[solid heart]

I wanted to make sure they knew it was coming not that they actually care what any of the players have to say obviously

[sudden pewter]

Wild

[unkempt moss]

They will learn to Fear The Ancient for sure.

[sudden pewter]

Can’t wait for nothing to come of this

[muted condor]

Bro knows all this and still goes 2/8 😔

[unkempt moss]

He's a top 40 tdm player. Doubt he does that bad.

[muted condor]

All optimization no skill is the downfall of those who want greatness

[unkempt moss]

Don't listen to him. Hard work is more important than talent and skill.

[sudden pewter]

Data is important to consider when balancing anything but it isn’t the ultimatum as Embark has proven

[chilly granite]

i go 2/8 somtimes buecae i have sick and feel sick

i no play rn becuase too sick even type hurt lot

usually way better but i do incosinistnet

[sudden pewter]

We all have bad days tbf

[unkempt moss]

I'm consistently bad at the game, so that's good.

[chilly granite]

the reason i do so much tesitng is becasue i too sick to play so i bored and testing is fun and intersting

[indigo nexus]

ranked placement matches this far into the season are a fun ego boost, these high silvers are no match for the spear meta

[sudden pewter]

One day soon I will swallow my fear and wade into the waters of ranked

[unkempt moss]

Homie is built to be a fighting game lab rat. Born in the wrong genre.

[chilly granite]

idk why hurt so bad rn i took medicine 😭

[sudden pewter]

I know the moment I do the damned Lights will grab me by the ankles and suck me into the mire ong

[stoic garden]

you should try it ngl, i find it more fun than all other modes atm

[serene glade]

honestly yeah lmao

[sudden pewter]

I need to ensure my mental is tip top first

[unkempt moss]

bruv would be the next desk

[sudden pewter]

I chimped on a PB game yesterday and that proves I’m not ready

[chilly granite]

i like teamwipe gold loss but i dont liked no reserves

[indigo nexus]

found some weirdly organised silvers though, they were running repeater-repeater-KS-23, and synchronised their shots to basically instakill people before they understood they were under attack. However the spear meta was just too violent and brutal for them to keep up when they had to get in close.

Dealt 840 damage to them at one point because my teammates were both dead and all three of them rushed into my hiding place to finish me off at the same time, half a spin more and they'd be wiped :p

[muted condor]

If knowledge gave power good men would rule the world

[serene glade]

@unkempt moss its the only genre ive seen genuine number crunching, and then bruv would have actual answers to things that need solutions

[chilly granite]

^^^ delete peater
ks23 projectile 0meter

[serene glade]

if you aint chimping you aint winnin

[muted condor]

I’m always chimping (I don’t win tho)

[stoic garden]

as i always say, KILL EVERYONE

[chilly granite]

180hp light breakpoints repeater and model

[stoic garden]

embark aint ever doing that g

[unkempt moss]

Yeah get this guy on a fighting game. His talents are wasted here.

[chilly granite]

ttks repeater and model with model nerf reverted

[stoic garden]

hop on 2xko

[sudden pewter]

I’m never toxic on Mic but I shit and koom in the discord and it isn’t fun to listen too. I need to focus more on my own individual performance than despairing 7/8 players are going negative on my team

[chilly granite]

current numbers

[unkempt moss]

Yeeeeeuccchhk

[chilly granite]

currently model is literally just worse repeater, with 180hp and 117 damge on model, teh world is fixed

[muted condor]

If numbers were god then dagger would be Jesus

[chilly granite]

do i need make spreadsheet to prove you wrong

[unkempt moss]

Yes

[stoic garden]

just kidding

[sudden pewter]

Stop responding bro just let the wick burn out

[serene glade]

i have never joined a VC even in ranked because it make my teammates mad

[serene glade]

this deserves a 10 minute timeout no cap

[unkempt moss]

Disgrusting

[sudden pewter]

I would probably SoloQ as I don’t have enough experienced players as acquaintances to play with. Which incurs its own downsides but if my mental is good then it shouldn’t matter

[muted condor]

This wick is built on wax made of stone and fire from the soul

[chilly granite]

I sent the link to my finals hp/ttk calculator to embark so they can use it hahahahaha

[sudden pewter]

You aren’t going to change his mind

[serene glade]

out of all the platform fighters this might be the worst

[muted condor]

I know

[stoic garden]

i know

[unkempt moss]

That would be Smash Ultimate.

[stoic garden]

but it's always been fun for me

[muted condor]

I can watch the pointless numbers with amusement at the very least

[serene glade]

actually yeah

[compact tundra]

You take that back scoundrel

[serene glade]

take me back to smash 4 balance

[compact tundra]

Bro just wants the most broken character to be caked up again smh

[stoic garden]

lmao

[serene glade]

id rather deal with cloud and bayo than play smash ultimate which is just no lag on moves/no risk simulator

[compact tundra]

I guess that's fair. I main little Mac and Ike so I inherently have lots of risk in my games

[muted condor]

I played a fighting game one time and said “Cool not doin’ all that” and uninstalled

[unkempt moss]

Based Mac main

[compact tundra]

FUN

/\

VIABILITY

this is how one must live to achieve unity with Allah

[unkempt moss]

Did you ever ascend to a traditional or anime fighter?

Or 3d is there i suppose.

[compact tundra]

No but I've been putting off getting sparking 0 for like a year now, I'ma play it eventually. Probably once my current Stardew valley phase is over

[serene glade]

i feel like most smash players if they move on from platform either go guilty gear or tekken after. there is no in between

[unkempt moss]

Speaking of, Bow-kun is such a Tekken player

[compact tundra]

Hell I've barely play smash. I've only ever really played ultimate and I can only play that because my friend's sister keeps letting me borrow her switch so I can fight the bots in 1v1 mode. I don't own any Nintendo consoles

[unkempt moss]

Let me memorize the frame data from 85 moves against 59 other characters 85 moves

[serene glade]

forever cursed to finalstdm. honestly a tragedy

[unkempt moss]

What a waste. His punish game would be insane. He'd never have to press a button first.

[serene glade]

he seems like the one whod be a hard character specialist and then write up a 40 page google doc "guide"

[unkempt moss]

Trying to think of his tekken character. Yosh is the easy answer but it would probably be a mashima

[chilly granite]

heheh

[kindred gorge]

hi what does this numbers mean (I know what ttk s I have no idea what qm and such stands for)

[sudden pewter]

Time to Kill (TTK) Quick Melee (QM)

[chilly granite]

hs 1.5x is the time to kill, if the weapon has 1.5x multiplier
2x is with a 2x multi

for the cb, 1.5x is accurate, for the model, there is no hs multiplier

[kindred gorge]

Dang I never noticed the model didn’t have headshots, I could’ve sworn it did

That’s good to know though, means I should aim lower

I’m assuming that’s the case for everything expect the slug shotgun as well right?

[muted condor]

The KS23 doesn’t have head shots ether

[sudden pewter]

No shotgun has access to headshots. Period

[serene glade]

Getting shot in the face by the anti tank slug shotgun is the same as getting shot in the chest. A light breeze

[sudden pewter]

100 is pretty substantial all things considered

Unfortunately it’s RoF and the Rechamber leave the weapon very mediocre. But if anybody dealt 50 damage to your target that’s -1 shot you need to land

[serene glade]

I just use it with charge and slam and pyro mines for that reason

[sudden pewter]

Well I skibidi toilet and juju on that beat

[serene glade]

But for what kind of weapon it is I always feel like it falls short of being bad ass. Not even sure how you fix that. The change to actually breaking terrain in 2 shots was a great change I'll give them that

[sudden pewter]

It used to be able to skip the rechamber animation like the SA. But in late S5 that was changed and it’s struggled ever since

It’s also the only shotgun in the game to have a hipfire penalty

[serene glade]

Yeah I've felt that, it's quite anger inducing

[compact tundra]

It's that time of month again

Make it do 110
No bloom
No hip fire penalty
Lots of fun

[sudden pewter]

I need to break the habit of just hipfiring because it’s only reliable when you ADS

fucks with my head

[wintry trout]

m11 over everything

[sudden pewter]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/912749514169921637/1043905042106818640/big_thumb.gif

[chilly granite]

Needs to be always projectile (fuck the hitscan whiners) and then give it some chonky buffs

I think it's fine with 105 damage so you can quickmelee mediums

Bfr needs to be always projectile too and have significantly nerfed damage with 2 hs multi for 135 damage headshot

[compact tundra]

In all seriousness I had a discussion with bow user the other day and I kinda like the KS-23 change we came up with together.

KS-23

• Remove bloom
• Remove hipfire penalty
• Min Falloff at 15m
• Max Falloff at 25m
• Falloff multiplier (0.68) (75dmg) at max
• Hitscan until 8m
• Destruction damage suffers no falloff
  -- the hitscan until 8m is mostly for QoL for hitting those close range shots for QM combos, outside of that it's back to a projectile cause honestly the projectile kinda made it feel unique and it shouldn't be long range anyways, that's the Titans and D-eagles job

[chilly granite]

I still think 74 damage at max falloff is fine, but 75 is probably fine too

It's gonna be a hard to snipe with projectile against light, which is the main risk with 75 falloff

[compact tundra]

Btw @chilly granite
I changed the hitscan number to be in-between the 10m I wanted and the 5m you wanted, we both didn't care much either way but 8m seems fine to me

[chilly granite]

Yeh I think 8m probably a good compromise

[compact tundra]

The projectile is why I went with 75

[chilly granite]

There's a lot of tuning with projectiles, so it's very possible that embark will give it a very speedy fat projectile that makes it not too hard to snipe lights with

But assuming that they give it a reasonable projectile, somewhat faster than current bow, I think that's fine

[alpine sphinx]

Ranked is low key such a trash game mode the higher in rank you go

the meta is absolute garbage right now

[serene glade]

That's just the game bud

[sudden pewter]

Just the game sorry

[compact tundra]

Point break dude. There is no meta in point break, every weapon besides dual blades have a good use case or viability

[serene glade]

🔌

[sudden pewter]

Heavy still randomly switches to a female voice, and Ursa still hasn’t been fixed

[alpine sphinx]

ye ik, and its trash because playing well is rewarded with boring ass gameplay

[sudden pewter]

Doors right there contestant, we leave it unlocked

[serene glade]

Just wait until Thursday bro, things are definitely gonna get better for sure

[sudden pewter]

Season 15 bro it’ll fix everything

[slender fiber]

they should buff frag grenade

[serene glade]

Remember when you could have 2

[slender fiber]

get back two charges yeah

[serene glade]

Old frag with 2 charges and no indicator would have gone crazy with mgl tbh. Wish I was using it back then. I was lost

[slender fiber]

now that it has an indicator i surely see no reason it cant have two charges

[sudden pewter]

Take a goo grenade charge

[slender fiber]

if you get hit its your own fault now

[alpine sphinx]

they will nerf heavy and find some new light weapon to make ridiculously op only to nerf in slightly again in 2 weeks

its been like this almost every fucking patch these days

[sudden pewter]

Lights being simultaneously the weakest and strongest archetype due to the blatant stupidity of the playerbase is a curse only Lord Xenu, covenant lord of Scientology can remedy

I was on the phone with god (all of them) and they said they couldn’t do shit about it

[kindred gorge]

Good loadout suggestions for SA? Rn I got Charge Slam, Pyro Mine, Goo Grenade and lock bolt

I’ve considered using goo gun but I’m not sure how to use it effectively with SA

[slender fiber]

dome shield should be in every heavy loadout

esp with a close range weapon

[compact tundra]

For SA winch or mesh is best.

Winch lets you pull them into meat shots

Mesh lets you cancel the barrel spin and guard yourself during a lot of situations, tho it's especially nasty in duels

As for gadgets the standard is gonna be

• Dome
• RPG
• C4/Lockbolt depending on if you want stall or kill confirms

[magic sapphire]

winch, barricade, rpg, dome

or you can even go with mesh

[muted condor]

Winch, SA12, barricade, pyro mine, c4 if you want to do the funny

[kindred gorge]

I love doing the funny

[past parcel]

thats S tier blancing wym

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/idfk-gif-3761179052566277881

[red apex]

What’s the best heavy loadout

[sudden pewter]

Naw it’s just more poop on the pile

[faint steppe]

Light being a strong fragger will always be unhealthy for casual modes and the casual playerbase

[sudden pewter]

For specializations Mesh & Winch are the top contenders.
As far as the weaponry goes, Shak, SA12, and Lewis Gun are all solid, viable choices.
When it comes to gadgets the standard sets remain evergreen.

• RPG
• C4
• Dome
• Lockbolt
  (Basically anything unique to Heavy)

[sudden pewter]

Not disagreeing, it’s just disparaging that the greater part of the community don’t understand how to effectively counter Light because they only enjoy the game at a surface level

[unkempt moss]

Buncha Negative Nancy'sin here. Us dreamers post our ideas, put our pride on the line, and all we get in return is gifs and a no. Then the Nancy's don't even post ideas in here. WepsNgadg has fallen

[sudden pewter]

I’m sorry babygirl, post peak and I’ll rejoice. So far I’ve seen very few suggestions that:

• Fit the game
• Don’t introduce more problems than they fix

[unkempt moss]

I remember a day when the dreamers were plentiful in here. Taking every suggestion seriously and collaborating along with calling things stupid. Now we're a relic of an era long since gone.

[chilly granite]

Why do u say that?

[sudden pewter]

Dreamers that liked the game and wanted more of it. Now half the shit suggested here is “make this more like other game” and that’s ass

Let’s add a stamina system! And directional melee swings! And ults! And PvE!

[unkempt moss]

Fit the game is hard for me to accept as a prerequisite. We're in a gameshow where kaiju and aliens attack, meteors and video game invaders blow up the stadium, gravity is just a suggestion. People teleport and get hit the face with a sledge hammer while being turned into coins. Dressed like mascots and call of duty rejects. There is no limit there

[sudden pewter]

Cosmetics don’t realistically affect gameplay, nor does the aforementioned Kaiju and Aliens. It’s set dressing for “meteor shower”

It’s there to show off the destruction tech

[unkempt moss]

Okay there's gadgets that aren't your standard shooter modern warfare shooter as well.

There's energy shields and singularity bombs. A shoulder mounted tether rocket. Invisibility bombs and healing guns.

[sudden pewter]

I’d certainly love to see more gameshow aspects, but I don’t want to see R6 Esque Camera drones

[unkempt moss]

I want to see the game be more bombastic. I know its not serious or competitive, but I really do agree with the sandbox sentiment. They keep removing more and more creativity.

[sudden pewter]

I agree

[unkempt moss]

The formula for the game sets it up to be outrageous and we drift further and further from that. Like heavies not needing movement. Why the fuck not? If I want set up a gateway to land a top rope charge and slam then who cares.

[sudden pewter]

Unfortunately that isn’t good for ESPORTS so it won’t happen

Sorry babe that ain’t it, if Heavy had native movement everything would crumble

It’s the cobweb in the corner of the chapel that’s been there so long it’s now structurally integral

[unkempt moss]

I really don't know if I believe that. And you know what, if that's true, why not break it? If even for half a season.

Let ranked be the sanctuary for the boring then. Use world tour for the wild stuff.

[sudden pewter]

I’m all for fun but it’s gotta be balanced. LTM’s exist to break the formula and offer a reprieve

[unkempt moss]

They can have the precious no movement heavy and epic balancing in ranked. Let me gateway slam for two weeks in world tour

[sudden pewter]

I think the differences in what is and isn’t acceptable stem from what we want. I’m a fan of the original recipe and you seem to want something entirely different

[unkempt moss]

I think theres room for both.

Adjusted loadouts can be more than an LTM thing.

I want to see how it interacts in cashout

[faint steppe]

Their low health, high damage archetype forces them into a playstyle that is simply unfun to play against for most people. And their fast speed and regen is basically tailor-made for modes like TDM or just casually fragging out.

They also have very good pub stomping weapons like DB, sword and sniper (mostly for Powershift) and mechanics that can vastly change depending on what system and settings you run (invis being much less visible on certain settings is stupid).

What I can't really prove is that hitreg often tends to be awful when shooting at Lights mid-dash and the visual effect doesn't really make tracking them easier. And while playing Light at a high level is the most skill intensive aspect of this game it's imo the inverse in casual lobbies.

But don't get me wrong I'm not arguing that other classes don't have mechanics that are annoying to deal with e.g. Winch or weapons that are unfun to play against e.g. Repeater. But ultimately I've had a lot of friends quit due to things like that and Light is imo the "worst offender".

[unkempt moss]

I think having rapidly shifting world tour balance and loadouts serves a couple functions. They can test balance and new ideas and it'll ease the feel of staleness in the ranked mode.

Like the alfa acta mode I genuinely think should move to ranked. Its such an interesting way to balance things, giving weaker weapons more cash for kills.

But its a world tour thing that we would have never been able to try if we didnt have a casual mode that mirrors the comp mode and also pushes wildly different play style.

You can do things like Volpe Slam Fest where heavy gets jump pad for charge and slam, light gets sledge hammer and medium gets fucked idk

The casual experience is more important to me, even though i play ranked exclusively. If they did things like that I probably would never play ranked again

[sudden pewter]

But as a baseline we want two very different things. So you can see why your suggestions are shut down for being too much while you may view mine as not enough

[unkempt moss]

I can understand why it shut down outside of this channel for sure. But I think there's kind of some sort of need to operate within hypothetical when discussing certain things. Obviously if some feedbacker comes in here and says "duhhh nerf flamethrower and dagger, give AK a drum mag and penetration" it can be dismissed and gif'd.

[sudden pewter]

I can agree with that to a point. Obviously Embark needs to experiment to see what does and doesn’t work. A factor in why we have such glacial balance changes is likely the fact they don’t seem to playtest internally (or at all given how PB turned out)

[unkempt moss]

Like if bow user didnt just monologue for 12 hours I would probably have more interest in talking to him aboht his ideas.

[sudden pewter]

For me it’s the exact opposite. (I skimmed it admittedly)
Claiming one weapon shouldn’t exist because of another (in terms of weapon balance) is incredibly stupid and from what I gather he genuinely believes the entire game should be balanced around the bow.

[unkempt moss]

This is why I'm saying treating WT as an almost experimental branch could do wonders for the mode. If even one good change stuck, e.g. the change to spear m2 in the ltm, its worth it to have 50 ltms and world tour events with different things.

[unkempt moss]

I probably have more time to engage with it admittedly. My most active times are when im reclining and pinned under a newborn trying to make sure she doesnt wake up from her nap.

But I definitely see why it would get tiresome engaging with it. He also has the problem of just burying you in "data" and refusing to change his pov

My eyes glaze over after the fifth graph about a bows draw time hits the Pentagon

There's certain good faith "dreamers" though that have earned the right to kind of throw some heinous shit out and have it be taken under consideration

Unjust and RS(who i haven't seen in a while) being examples.

[chilly granite]

axoltyl head disagreees

[unkempt moss]

Exceptions dont make the rule, even with cloak being affected by cosmetics. I understood what he was saying with that.

[sudden pewter]

Cloak shouldnt be affected by cosmetics though

It’s wild that they do, changing that would go a long way in helping it

[unkempt moss]

Its a bug as far as I'm concerned, so it'll get the chop eventually. Whenever embark decides to pull their thumb out of their ass.

[sudden pewter]

Cloak isn’t used by pros in ESports so it’ll be another 3-4 seasons at the soonest

[unkempt moss]

The Embark Classic™

[sudden pewter]

With the swathe of QoL to the game introduced in S9 I’m really sad they’re so slow

[unkempt moss]

Them being shrouded in secrecy seems to be hitting the general public as well. See it more and more in feedback

[sudden pewter]

Good, needs more attention.

It isn’t a Herculean task to communicate with the community

[unkempt moss]

Daily average on steam is getting lower slowly. You're also seeing a lot of it in the fact that matchmaking seems to be far more of a problem this season. I dont know if I've ever seen this much chatter about it. Since we cant see numbers for other platforms I think its the best way to gauge player count on those.

It was always a problem for people but it seems to have eclipsed most other issues in feedback.

[chilly granite]

regen

specifical said to embark how this is issue, mcuh easier to punish heavy than light on regen timer even ifthey're equal beacuse heavy is more static target

all classes should have equal regen timers, or even light having slower regen timer, so that light mistakes are more punishable

mechanics that can vastly change depending on what system and settings you run (invis being much less visible on certain settings is stupid).

ye they need to make invis just invis and give invis an attack delay

it's also debuff to people with vision issues, where this game is otherwwise extremely friendly to them

What I can't really prove is that hitreg often tends to be awful when shooting at Lights mid-dash and the visual effect doesn't really make tracking them easier. And while playing Light at a high level is the most skill intensive aspect of this game it's imo the inverse in casual lobbies.

watching back slow motion replays of a friend who's an insane aimer, hitreg worked properly mid-dash when he aimed correctly. some rough testing of dash indicates the "warning time" is 100ms, and then the dash is completed in 250ms after the warning, which gives 350ms total time for dash, which is crazy fast

But ultimately I've had a lot of friends quit due to things like that and Light is imo the "worst offender".

I think dash and cloak are probably the offenders, rather than light itself

dash and cloak are just badly designed for casual audience, becuase a system latency of 100ms means even if you have pro reaction times, it's almost impossible to react/aim at a dash light, and a bad screen can make invis lights super painful to play against

grapple has way more counterplay

[chilly granite]

embark kinda killed the finals by making a better game kekw

[analog pewter]

system latency of 100ms? explain

[sudden pewter]

Steam isn’t the only platform, but it’s definitely a measure of health. AFAIK Steam + all other platforms combined is around 200,000. A relatively healthy playerbase all things considered. But Embark should definitely look into upgrading servers and addressing long standing issues

The fact they’re so slow, and refuse to communicate, combined definitely make it a larger issue

They’d likely retain more players if every month or so we got a “Here’s what we’re working on” post. Even if it’s just lip service

[serene glade]

to me that makes it even weirder that they are so on board with making esports "vital" and actually going through with shit for it

[unkempt moss]

I just dont think you have this many complaints of rubies invading gold lobbies with 200k players. Especially with China having their own game and OCE seeming to be a ghost town.

Hedging, but you could be correct since they're seeing previous season rubies and not their actual RS. Because I see precious season diamonds all the way down in to low silver.

[chilly granite]

vsync on and a 60hz monitor with some lag will quite easily give your system, mouse > computer > scrreen, latency of like 60+ms

shitty tvs can have latency of over 60ms with no vsync

so ignoring everything else, the backstab dagger doesn't even beat an m11 on bodyshot dps

if you somehow manage to backstab someone withouht exposing yourself such that you take damage during reload, so we consider "exposde dps" being only the warmup and stab, you are rewarded with only 1.41x the dps of the m11

all of this ignoring that backstabs are not totally reliable and are dodgable much more like headshots than bodyshots, and if you consider bodyshot dps, then it gets even worse

@muted condor

[sudden pewter]

That might be a symptom of a low ranked player pool opposed to low player pool in-general. That or dogshit matchmaking which would line up with the complaints in #👂┇game-feedback

[chilly granite]

an elemeet might be that rubies/diamsonds play lots of ranked, and little casual, and when they play casual they paly off meta/unusal and unfamiliar kits, leading to their casual mmr being dogshit compared to their skill level

oh someone come test the dash with me plasese

assuming the partical effecst start when the fov change starts on dash, then you get 100ms warning before movment @analog pewter

but the game needs to know that the light is dashing before it can tell the gpu to render the pfx
then the gpu needs to make an image for the monitor to display
then the monitor needs to ingest that image and display it

and then you can aim at the dash light

in my OBS recording, obs recognizeses a mouse click 4 frames before the game recognizes the mouse click. The game needs 2 frames minimum, so there's some lag coming from elsewhere. (technically maybe 1.5 frame minimum? not sure)

4 frames being 20ms, my frame rate corresponding to roughly 5ms per frame on cpu and 2ms on gpu

then a (my monitor) high end gaming monitor at native refresh with variable refresh rate, has around 4ms of latency

but - a tv used in not game mode - over 110ms regardless of anything else

tcl qm6k, so a very modern tv

so with 20ms of render/game lag, and 110ms of screen lag, you can imagine how hard it would be to hit a dash light when the "warning" of a dash is only 100ms before movement

the total duration of dash is only 350ms, but a good player can retain accuracy in the dash, while it's (probably) physically impossible for a human to maintain full accuracy on a dashing player due to the very fast warmup time and acceleration

a good player knows when they press the button, adn they will understand their speed and movement direction, so maintaining accuracy is much simpler than for someone who must react

the limits of human reaction times are around 100ms, and even the best records on computer-tested systems (so with monitor and computer latency) are around 120ms according to this slightly suspicous article I found, but a lot of this is reinforcing stuff I already knew

[unkempt moss]

Is the ranked experience really that bad? I play it as my main mode so I suppose i wouldn't know what its like in others.

[chilly granite]

so, even with literally perfect reaction times and minimal system latency, you're basically always goign to miss at lesat 1 bullet on a dash light

turn on vsync, turn off game mode on your tv, and you won't hit a shot

that's part of why the cb is so dominant imho, because 350ms is a huge amount of time to hit a second shot, but a tiny amount of time to track a light with a rapid fire weapon

tracking is already harder than flick aim, because it demands recoil control and sustained accuracy

if the dash light has reaction times of 120ms, and AKM surprise them, then they hit two shots (0.0, 0.1) and then dash light presses dash (0.12) and akm hits third shot in dash warmup (0.2) and then dash kicks in (0.22)and the akm's brain sees the dash (0.24) and they need to aim at the light who is mid dash in just 60ms, to not miss their next shot

and for context, the kovaaks world record for a scenario where you can see where the next two enemies are, and just need to aim as fast as possible, is 120ms time to aim between targets

that's wtih 0 reaction time, just mechanical mouse moving world record

this isn't perfect scenario as it has no warning/animation/travel time, dash is just instant in it, and there's no momentum lean on the character. Even so, the rank 3 player, top finals light has an accuracy of just 56%, so yu can imagine how bad it is for people using vsync and slow monitor

i'd love to see uni's score wiht 100ms aritifical lag (kovaks has feature)

[sudden pewter]

I wouldn’t know. I’ve yet to dip my feet into ranked so take any information I put forth with a grain of salt.

[unkempt moss]

Now that I think back. We do seem to be getting repeat teammates a lot more this season. played 3 games in a row with the same person

[chilly granite]

^^

i think all the casual ranked players are in pont break

[unkempt moss]

I also thought about what you said about us wanting completely different things. And I don't know if that's right. I think I expect more out of them, not necessarily different from you. Sure I want to shake things up, but I think the problem is they've taken so much from the game and not given anything to replace it. I'm fine if the keep the game 1.0, but I think as they've removed tech they have also removed depth.

The game is very predictable now. I think thats why it feels stale, and why point break is so popular. When I thought about it, even though crazy changes would be fun, I don't know if its necessarily what I want for the main game. The predictability of the game is making me think I want giant sweeping changes but its just an over reaction.

Removing things like the cashout kickflip, GooFo and Goovement, andgrappling to canisters removed the feeling of the sandbox. Each one didn't feel like a major deal at the time if it didn't effect you, but it has slowly removed more and more soul over time like a creeping death.

So my answer, mainly because I like to homebrew, is to mix things up and find new surprising things. When that may not be necessarily what I want, since I just want some of the novelty back in the game again.

[sudden pewter]

I can agree I want new toys, new maps, new modes, specializations. But I like The Finals. I like playing as the three archetypes in an arena sandbox. A sandbox with some structure to it, but a sandbox nonetheless.

There is a balance in that chaos that attracts me to the game.

[chilly granite]

they have done a poor job of helping skill floor

not sure if they have reduced skill ceiling, but for sure the skill floor is way toodamn high

[chilly granite]

I think generally trying to find a way to balance weird bugs into the game, rather than deleting them , isa good take

but some things are inherently unbalanceable

[sudden pewter]

Broken clock. Incorporating “tech” into the game is the ideal path. Rather than removing cool interactions, balance them. Roll them into the intended design.

[unkempt moss]

I do think they are slowly trying to clean the sandbox out of the game for esports but thats a different topic.

[sudden pewter]

I still cannot fathom what led them to believe ESPORTS would be the future if the game

[unkempt moss]

Chinese influence. Its that simple.

[chilly granite]

finals players skew sweaty

[sudden sorrel]

fr

[chilly granite]

but I think that's a niche game thing, rather than a finals thing

when you have a niche game, the few players you have are going to be more passioniate and therefore sweaty

that can seem like a budding esports scene to a manager with a lobotomy

[sudden pewter]

Nexon wants that Ming Dynasty Twitch Viewership

[unkempt moss]

I actually dont think the finals skews sweaty. I think you can sweat, and its certainly an option. I think it really shines as a casual sandbox game with sharp gunplay.

[chilly granite]

I don't think esports is a bad direction for the finals, but esports as cashout is a bad direction

I think embark was working owards esports via terminal attack but then realized it was crap

[chilly granite]

the players in my games are for sure sweatier than players in any other fps i play

or the aim assist is broken op not sure

[sudden pewter]

Sweating is an option in any game. I just don’t understand why in a game that proudly wears the chaos of its combat as a badge would believe a format that by design limits chaos to streamline combat for enjoyable viewership is what will save the game

[chilly granite]

good take

[fossil verge]

Help

[sudden pewter]

Do not redeem

[chilly granite]

I mean, I for sure think termal attack was an attempt to make finals esports ready

I never actually played it, Iplayed like 1 time and then didn't play again that season LMAO

[fossil verge]

I've been a 1 trick light for so long

I'm switching to medium now, and I love the repeater. What sight is meta for it?

[chilly granite]

personal preference and brace yourself for the nerfs tomororow

[fossil verge]

Nerfs tomorrow?

[chilly granite]

they tried and failed to nerf the repeater 2 weeks ago

[fossil verge]

What're the nerfs tomorrow?

[unkempt moss]

If they wanted to go for viewership and stream culture they should have gone the community route and made some sort of viewer experience where they could affect the game for streamers like a gameshow.

[chilly granite]

ask an embark dev idk, I'm just reading the oujia board

man terminal attack was litearlly knockoff r6s

"let's copy the worst esport on the market"

[sudden pewter]

Add an actual gameshow experience

[jade laurel]

Blunderbuss when

[chilly granite]

man embark really donesn't eseem to undersatnd that watching people run for 40s isn't a fun time

[fossil verge]

Are there gonna be dagger changes?

[unkempt moss]

Take your top streamers, have them represent an ingame sponsor as a team. Run a cashout tournament or something and let the viewers alter the experience.

[chilly granite]

other changes are impossible to predict, it's a midseason update so we can expect signficant changes, but it's hard to say what deservese or will recieve significant changes

however I really really doubt the dagger is getting either bufed or nerfed

[chilly granite]

that sounds legit amzing

[unkempt moss]

Repeater is considered busted af by a large majority of the community, so the assumption is that during the largest patch of the season they are doing something.

[fossil verge]

So what do we know for SURE

[chilly granite]

100k can buy a lot of high end streamers for a couple hours too

[fossil verge]

For any weapons

[unkempt moss]

Nothing.

We can only speculate.

If you want to go by community sentiment, BFR, Repeater, and Goo Grenade are on the chopping block.

[chilly granite]

nothing for sure. But I think matter will get buff. peater nerf. bfr nerf. glitch nade, gravity vortex, smoke buff. gateway nerf. dash nerf. dome, rpg, goo grenade, winch nerf

this is somewhat a wishlist

the most likely ones are bfr, peater, goo, and winch

buff to coin in ranked

[sudden pewter]

Nothing. We have no teasers or concrete evidence for anything

[chilly granite]

oh we do know we get finger guns skin for deag

deags are getting a buff I specutlate with high probabilitly

[fossil verge]

So dagger buffs

[chilly granite]

model might get a buff, but that's risky

meleee weapons never get buffed only nerfed

[unkempt moss]

Embark doesnt communicate with its most passionate players here on the discord or in general. So we are just talking out of our ass.

[chilly granite]

I'm looking foward to seeing how right I am

overconfidence is a virtue

buff to pyro/fire afterburn in general

buff to light's hp pool (this is a fantasy and won't happen)

ohh H+ is 99% gonna get nerfed

there's no fkn way they're leaving it as op as it is#

[unkempt moss]

I dont see a light nerf incoming, but maybe.

[chilly granite]

I think I made a very convicing argumnent on the health of the game for nerfing dash, and I did say that they should buff light's health to compensate

there's a lot of ways to compensate for nerfing dash, but dash should've been nerfed properly seasons ago (same for invis)

I don't consider invis to be very good,but even moreso I do not consider it to be fair or fun for new players

it raises the skill floor massively becasue counterplay is non obvious and depends on your monitor/graphics settings

[unkempt moss]

I just dont think they know what to do with dash but its the current nail looking to get hammered on light.

[chilly granite]

the most important thing is that the cooldown needs tobe at least 15 seconds

triple dash sohould cripple the light

[sudden pewter]

Yes

Oscar himself confirmed the dagger will be receiving several buffs

[chilly granite]

Don't troll people who will believe you

[unkempt moss]

With HHM being the ruby gospel right now I just dont think they touch light

Well maybe buffs

[chilly granite]

180hp + dash nerf

I have a dream

[torn fiber]

John light

[cunning slate]

Jane ☝️🧐

Looks female-esque

[torn fiber]

I know a fem John
whats the gender neutral John/jane

[chilly granite]

season 8 was an ass sseasons for the grand major too, boring ass meta

[cunning slate]

Joe?

[torn fiber]

Joe finals

[cunning slate]

This is actual genius.

[analog pewter]

the only place ive seen goonade hate is in this channel ngl

[chilly granite]

i thinmk its pretty uncontroversally op but people dont dislike playing with or against it

[analog pewter]

im a goonade defender personally i think goo is the single most interesting mechanic aside from destruction. it's literally counterpart to it. the presence of goo makes almost every engagement more interesting

i think it's fine for goo to be very strong bc the game is made more interesting for it

[chilly granite]

kinda?

i think goo nade having two charges is crazy when barrels are so common

I feel like barrels sohuld be more essential gameplay

im tryna watch TGM and this shit is so boring man

4min 30 for two actual fights

they need to add camera smoothing for spectator cam these guys camera movement is giving me a ehadahce

one of them literally did like 5 360s before they revived

correction, it was a camera bug I think? that's a rpoblem anyway lol

[unkempt moss]

I agree with this, but I feel like I've seen talks of it getting one charge for a couple seasons now.

[chilly granite]

fights are so short man

I've re-evaluated

gadget cooldowns need to be way shorter

[sudden pewter]

Light won’t be touched, I doubt any of the archetypes ever will. They’re sacred, it’s anathema to change them. The tools and weapons available though? That’s on the table

[chilly granite]

(for most gadgets)

the power of gadgets, combined with extremely punishable cooldowns, means that fights end up as an all in

poke poke poke -> all in

3v3 contributes to this too I think, since 1 player is 33% of your teams power - and losing their gadgets is often more than 33% of your teams relative power

[sudden pewter]

That’s just me and a few others. Goo is strong, nobody wants goo to be nerfed. All me, myself, and I ask is that Goo Grenade only have one charge, because if the GooGrenade user beefs the throw, or gets outplayed and their first goo wall gets nullified (either through movement or gadget use) they’ve got another one immediately available. Feels bad to play against given the imbalance of effort

[chilly granite]

^

[sudden pewter]

Double Barrel Light/P90 Medium/Sledge Heavy (trying not to make it seem like just a light issue) fucked up their dive and are on the back foot? They’ve got two get out of jail free cards

[unkempt moss]

My only exposure about GooGrenade is googs going ape shit and saying lights shouldnt have goo. I feel like ive seen a couple videos talking about bringing it to one charge as well.

[sudden pewter]

I dunno about Lights losing goo altogether, but definitely losing a charge

[chilly granite]

bro is racist against lights

do any lights actually run goo?

[unkempt moss]

Its just when hes angy

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/hulk-always-angry-i-am-cap-gif-20198895

[unkempt moss]

I see it a lot.

[sudden pewter]

Gamer Rage makes me polymorph into a wolf with two more wolves inside of it (they’re fucking)

[chilly granite]

I mean, goo is good, but if you're not running grapple I feel like there's way better choices on light

goo gains value if you're not running dash, and if you're running grapple too, so i get grapple/invis lights using goo

[sudden pewter]

I don’t want to just write off Goo Light as a crutch because there’s valid usecases but the majority of the times I see Goo on Light it’s to safely disengage after a beefed dive. Sword Light wasted all his dashes to close the distance and is getting lit the fuck up?

Goo Grenade to completely block the hallway. No way to chase down without expending a utility, and if you do they’ve got another at the ready

[chilly granite]

yeah but grapple needs that

[sudden pewter]

I’ve seen Light make goo walkways between map elements to maintain vertical superiority or make obscene sniper perches off of the sky hooks

[chilly granite]

8s cd on grapple lol

[chilly granite]

last time I did that a cl40 player managed to jumppad higher than me (scaffolding on fengwei) and blew me the fuck up lol

[sudden pewter]

Good

[chilly granite]

I shit on him when he didn't shoot me first 🙂 it was -rs but I elimi'd his team

30s resets are too long thoguh

and I really, really stand by my opinion that first coin should be immeidate and free

[analog pewter]

im still advocating for light wall jump + dash nerf. it would do everything the archetype needs

[chilly granite]

I think grapple needs double jump, I dont think dash or invis need any buffs at all

grapple double jump + dash nerf is a w take thoguh

[analog pewter]

wall jump, not double jump

[chilly granite]

grapple needs double jump for skillfloor

[analog pewter]

light should have to stay near a surface when doing any type of jumping maneuver to maintain their vulnerability to splash weapons like the cl-40. it's an important weakness in their design

they shouldn't have mid-air movement mixup, it should require a surface

[chilly granite]

I understand what you say, but I've seen so many new players yeet themselves off the map with grapple

[analog pewter]

that's just the learning experience. let them learn

[chilly granite]

and grapple doesn't give any damage resistance like invis or dash

[analog pewter]

also they shouldnt have 360 degree counter-movement, like if they did do double jump it should be like quake champions' doomguy, rather than scout from tf2. maintain momentum, add vertical, but otherwise no counter-velocity

[chilly granite]

dash is mid air movement mixup already and lights still die to cl40

[sudden pewter]

I’m still leaning against no

[analog pewter]

i also advocate it because these are the people who made mirror's edge and it would be a great callback

[chilly granite]

I can respect that opinon, I'm not sure I agree but I think that would help new players buy time to grapple to safety, while not being as powerful or forgiving as double jump

I think scout double jump is fine as a grapple exclusive

grapple is a very long cooldown, 8s where a missed winch is 10, and a grapple light has extremely little counterplay for a lot of situations/weapons

wall jump for invis is intersting to help invis' vertical movement

I don't think dash needs a wall jump at all

I think if you give dash walljump, dash should lose all vertical movement

[unkempt moss]

My friend plays sniper and I set him sniper nests like that with googun. Its pretty based

[chilly granite]

3 fights in 5 mins, and the first two had 0 impact on the outcome/third fight

the game does lack permanence/reprecussions for lost fights

and considering it was a steal under 3 enemies, that just makes it feel even cheaper

if you lose a fight, then the enemies' chosen event shoudl trigger

if you don't want to have long cooldowns that can affect the next fight

so teams can choose events from casual cashout, that will trigger if the enemy team gets teamwiped

10mn final round game, and litearlly 0 fights had any impact on the outcome

the meaningful engaugments took all of 1min? maybe not even that much

i feel like my time has been wasted watching this because nothign i watched mattered at all

final round needs a way shorter map timer

alright the cat wants to be fed breakfast so I shoudl've gone sleep a whiel ago

[balmy carbon]

uh

[sudden pewter]

uh

[unkempt moss]

Bow-chan just monologues like that nbd

[chilly granite]

It's 5am so all my friends are sleeping so you guys are my replacement friends who must suffer my rambling

@unkempt moss did u watch the grand major btw? What did u think if so?

[unkempt moss]

I did not.

I think I watched the ass end of one match and it was as horrific as I imagined.

Is there a Goo Gremlin or something on one of the teams

[chilly granite]

I don't remember seeing one but it's a terrible viewing experience

Like, the UI is so bad that I was ignoring it so I don't remember what specs they were running

I saw way too many Winches though

God if this is what high ranked games of cashout are like I'm grateful for being silver

This shit is so boring hahahah

[unkempt moss]

They have to run the best stuff

[chilly granite]

Not in that way, it's just the meta is super boring

It's like afk for 5 mins and then someone is out of position, everything is used and everyone dies

First coin needs a way shorter cool down (and improved spawns) so that it's viable to cut them lose and regroup with coin rather than yolo fighting with everything and wiping being the optimal strategy

The optimal strategy should not be for both teams to basically suicide fight to death in most situations

The alternative is to go for a ninja steal, which again, should not be the optimal strategy

It's really boring

Like the cool plays I do where I grab a statue and grapple to safety and rez, would just be griefing in a high level game because it's more efficient for me to have suicided with my teammate on yolo maybe we win the fight

I watched like an hour and saw one coin lol

All these takes about the bow/matter being good make more sense in a world where the optimal strategy is to do maximum damage and suicide

Burst damage is a lot more valuable if the meta is to always fight to the death the second anything happens

Bow/matter are significantly worse in lower ranks where people do not follow that strategy/do not like team wiping

Even ignoring teamwork, even when teams in low level lobbies have great teamwork, matter/bow lose a lot of value if people are backing off to revive, backing off the heal, backing off to wait cool downs

Final round should be cash out rules but first to 50k for sure, boxes worth 21k?

Not having team wipe gold makes for a terrible viewer experience

Cool downs should persist death too, so that there's an incentive to kill a team and pressure their respawn, rather than anti-gameplay being the optimal outcome (locking down an enemy to delay respawn, manipulating spawns so they can't respawn close)

Individual player deaths should probably have a respawn timer of 10s, with team wipe being 45s

Too long team wipe timer might actually make it even worse so maybe 10/25s

Longer steal timer, and a shorter hand-rez would help too

Map design is a significant problem here though

[unkempt moss]

how so

[chilly granite]

Too many highly exposed bottlenecks

[unkempt moss]

which map

[chilly granite]

One I'm watching RN is either soul or fortune stadium

I think fortune stadium

To clarify, it makes roof sitting on the bottlenecks very powerful slowing the game massively/encouraging poke meta

And one teammate dying out of position makes it basically impossible to def cash out if you don't have stall available

It's very interesting whatching the grand major, so many weird opinions make much more sense now

But they're basically symptoms of the meta being garbage rather than actually fundmamnetal to the game

[unkempt moss]

Are the servers torched right now?

[analog pewter]

i think i just got into a match where one of the teams/players literally like, did something to the servers
because every single team in the match at the start got lagged the fuck out and then 2/3 of each team got DCed
except orange team
it was SO suspect
hilariously i still managed to wipe them once and steal their cashout

[chilly granite]

They said they fixed it but Im not online rn to check

[analog pewter]

it was a straight up 1v1v1v3
so either that team got extremely lucky or they were responsible for the dcs

[chilly granite]

I reported this exploit to embark 3 days ago, for us it was 0v0v0v3 until 2min left in round

[analog pewter]

if it was 0v0v0v3 then that means your team did it....

[chilly granite]

Then everyone reconnected at same time

I was one of the first to reconnect, I was a victim, pink was the 3 plauers

[analog pewter]

do you recognize any of the usernames on orange team?

[chilly granite]

I'm eu but they were also console players

[analog pewter]

ahh

[chilly granite]

I'm pretty sure it's an exploit on console networking

Idk how tf it works but yeah

They did it in the loading time of the second round, so nobody even got in at all except them, they had an empty lobby first first 6 mins or whatever

I sent a lot of messages to embark support, I put emphasis on this issue, but you should probably message them too, just to make sure mine didn't fall in a bin with my opinions on balance hahahah

But yeah, moderate levels of commitment need to be buffed imho, and consequences need to be buffed too

There aren't really good ways to punish enemies camping roof in 3v3

Or at least none of the pro teams at the grand major know any hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Best of the best playing the best of the best. All about consequence and commitment management.

[chilly granite]

And that's not true of csgo?

Fundamentally it's not dynamism to poke back and forth for 4 mins until you can commit because you finally eeked out an advantage

Consequences exist only for the team that had a bad spawn location lol

Commitment management is also the biggest lie, in almost all of the matches I've watched it's been binary between non committal and all in

[unkempt moss]

Hey, youd love the dynamism of gouf patch bud

[chilly granite]

I probably would, I don't think we see eye to eye on many specific changes but I think we share a similar vision for the game (ie, people actually playing it)

I don't mean playerbase, I mean the players in a match not afking on a roof

[unkempt moss]

You'd be surprised. Youve said a handful of changes in the patch without hearing it from me.

[chilly granite]

I know yheres some ideas I've said that I'd be shocked if you didn't want them too

[analog pewter]

yeah thats what happened to me, the loading was super long then we lagged and both my teammates dced
i didnt even get a notification that they dced

i reported everyone on the unaffected team for server manipulation assuming it was one of their doing

[chilly granite]

For my game, every team but them got black screen waiting for contestants until 2min left

Then we all got reconnected

And I got -1100 for leavers penalty despite being 4th place with 7th seed

It was a +300 if I didn't get leaver penalty

I didn't leave btw, the bug/exploit made me count as a leaver

[unkempt moss]

A lot of people got hit. I'd have to assume they will roll back the points.

[chilly granite]

This was a few days ago for me, and embark support didn't say that I'd get points back and I haven't got a message in game either

I'm not hopeful and I don't really care either, it's just shitty

But yeah, map structure is the biggest problem in the finals probably, fengwei is by far the best on that front

The "design" visually etc is great, but there's a lot of awkward areas for fights where there just aren't good options

And I think that's mainly a symptom of the size of the maps, which are objectively massive

You can't effectively playtest a map thats so large, and you can't go into nearly as much refinement and detail as on a smaller map in regard to map structure

And even small changes in map structure can make an area a lot less campable

Power shift kinda exemplifies this because there's little to break up sightlines once you're on top of a building

Similarly, Seoul under construction is one of the best maps in 3v3v3b3 because there's only 1 and a half toxic areas to fight, and the most powerful location is incredibly vulnerable to flanks (the central construction area)

Light isn't strong enough to effectively perform a solo flank, so breaking a stalemate doesn't really work in final round because you have 3v3

[unkempt moss]

I think Skyway is the best map in the game

[chilly granite]

That's a hot take, but it's far from the worst. Similarly to SeoulUC, there's a fairly weak central location that's easy to attack in 3333, but compared to Seoul UC, it's also got the business center and mansion which are extremely punishing to approach

Both locations need better approaches

[unkempt moss]

Its effectively 5 TDM maps glued together. So the curated spaces feel unique but complete. It takes some of the better parts of each of the old maps without over using them.

[chilly granite]

Mansion is one of the worst tdm maps in the game and the rooftops/hotel are too

[unkempt moss]

Probably for actual TDM, but i think theyre fun for cashoht.

[chilly granite]

Hotel is much more fun in 3333 but sucks in 33 because there's no risk of flank

Hotel is great is 3333

Mansion is ass in all three

The business center/idk what it's called, above the mansion and hospital, is one of the best tdm maps but is truly awful on cashout because it's impossible to attack Vs compitent team

[unkempt moss]

Mansion is probably the weakest part of the map, but its really only annoying in cashout when its stuck in one of the sheds.

[chilly granite]

The sheds are the worst, but even without sheds, it's still just not dynamism to attack a team emplaced at mansion

You're gonna be taking a month sniping to try to get something to happen

[unkempt moss]

I play heavy, bud. Completely different game

[chilly granite]

I don't feel like you can run naked up the hill to mansion

[unkempt moss]

Goo Gun means im never naked.

[chilly granite]

Attacking mansion from business center isn't bad, but still doesn't feel very skillful, dynamic or fun

Goo gun probably makes mansion way more playable lol

What's your take on the business center/offices?

The inside is objectively amazing, I mean trying to attack from mansion or hospital

[unkempt moss]

I think office and construction are the two best parts of the map. Hospital can get a bit annoying with the roof over cafeteria

But I think theres enough entry points that its not a problem.

[chilly granite]

Hmm maybe I'm not experienced enough attack it

I feel like the entries are quite spread, so it's hard to have a choice on approach, and then you get beamed

[unkempt moss]

GooGun, its always the answer. But I dont usually to jump from mansion, I prefer to enter from the lower jump coming from hotel. Entry is kinda rough though on that side in general. Entry from hospital is way easier.

[chilly granite]

Hospital has a lot of weaknesses, it has fun areas but two very tight bottlenecks that suck to be on the wrong side of

It's worse on tdm because the spawns are ground floor, so you have to go far out of your way to play anywhere but the bottle necks

[unkempt moss]

I think hospital is decent. Its not as bad as mansion, not as good as Monaco Jr.

I actually like the long hallway in hospital because its different.

[chilly granite]

Hospital is solid for sure, just worse as a tdm map, not even for its failings, just for its spawns

[unkempt moss]

It might be my overwatch days coming out, but I kind of like fighting through certain choke points

[chilly granite]

The long hallway could be fun if you weren't spawned on opposite ends of it

Like, spawning on the roof instead on tdm would be great

Same locations just on the roof

[unkempt moss]

To me the slowness of fighting in a choke kind of makes that moment when your siege breaks through feel better.

[chilly granite]

Sure, but that's not what happens in tdm lol

[unkempt moss]

Yeah I know. It's a lot more methodical in cashout

[chilly granite]

Instead it's bodies in a meat grinder on a single hallway of the entire stage

[unkempt moss]

You have a lot of time to plan and set up for stuff in cashoit.

[chilly granite]

Spawning on the roof would make it much more interesting while retaining the interesting elements of the map

Without even planning, roof spawns give more opportunities for destruction and creativity in tdm

[unkempt moss]

Im in the minority with my map choices as well. Because I hate Monaco and it seems to be a good map according to a lot of people.

[chilly granite]

People are stupid, Monaco is firmly mid to bad

[unkempt moss]

I dont like fortune stadium very much. Its just bad skyway

Im okay with Kyoto I just adjust my loadout.

[chilly granite]

The church makes it playable because it stops you getting sniped and camped in, but it's missing on duck and cover

And Monaco has like 10 awful cashout locations that are way too powerful or way too week

[chilly granite]

Bad skyway and bad Seoul, it's ass

Fortune is probably the worst map for cashout

One of the best tdm maps though

[unkempt moss]

I brought this up when someone asked me why I hate Monaco. One of the events is just removing the best location on the map for a shooting gallery.

[chilly granite]

Im good at Monaco, I'm good at abusing the map, but that doesn't make it fun

I almost always win duck n cover because I steal and double and then everyone fights over the box and feeds

[unkempt moss]

Construction and Cathedral are the only decent parts of Monaco.

[chilly granite]

But I don't enjoy it lol, I'm just taking advantage of the shit map design

I don't enjoy playing cathedral either, there's a lot of bad movementy bits

Like I can't jump in the first floor windows even as a light

There aren't many fun fights in or on cathedral; I mean from a gunfight perspective/tdm wise, the angles, cover etc are boring

Construction I can't really say for sure, I just haven't played enough cashout on it , I normally just go for the really shitty/overexposed cashouts and double to get everyone to Def for me

But construction is fucking awful in point break

The angles are fun for tdm, but trying to push that shit is miserable

[unkempt moss]

I'd like for them to revisit maps similar to how they did with Vegas. Even for minor updates.

[chilly granite]

There's small changes that should happen for sure

Fortune stadium needs a lot of small changes

As a bare minimum, murder the sightlines and give better connectors

[unkempt moss]

Googs hates Nozomi and Feng Wai

[chilly granite]

Worst take ever

Both are significantly better maps than earlier maps, with consistently shorter sightlines and more flanking routes

[unkempt moss]

In his defense, he plays MGL this season and Fang Wai is the worst MGL map according to him.

[chilly granite]

Mgl is like the ultimate form of a repeater

So hating good maps make sense

[unkempt moss]

Explain that to me

[chilly granite]

Even more high ground dependant, even weaker to flanks

The areas a repeater wants to abuse, are the areas an mgl wants to abuse even more so , and areas where repeater can be punished, an mgl will eat shit

[unkempt moss]

Thats a wild direction to take that, but I can understand what you mean.

On a surface level thats an insane take, but when you gave me your perspective it makes sense why you think that.

[chilly granite]

Fortune stadium Vs fengwei is a perfect example

A peater and an mgl both want to sit on the middle of the map and camp in their enemies while the enemies have no way to flank or attack

Meanwhile on fengwei it's far easier to get a flank, break high ground, force cqb

There's like, two good locations on fengwei for either peater or mgl

Meanwhile fortune stadium is entirely good locations

[unkempt moss]

No Im picking up what youre putting down. It just takes a little work to get there.

[chilly granite]

I'm also writing it out for myself somewhat, to sorta clarify my own thoughts

I type as I think incase you haven't noticed hahaha

I mean the repeater is actually good so it's still good on fengwei, but the mgl is ass, so playing it fengwei must suck tbh

Nozomi has problematic areas that need reworks but the map as a whole is excellent

The like, giant white building with the bus stop thing

That whole area is trash except the inside

And the interior is like, 4/10 at best

Nozomi would be better if that area was deleted

[unkempt moss]

I'm not a fan of Nozomi either, it's very average. I don't hate it though

[chilly granite]

Nozomi isn't far from greatness, but it needs work

[unkempt moss]

Does every map have a tdm variant?

[chilly granite]

Yes

I think it's the other way around, tdm is the only mode with every map because of peace center

Peace center proves my point about map design though

It's honestly impressively bad for a pure tdm map designed purely for tdm

Spawn to spawn sightlines in a map designed for tdm

Bruh

[unkempt moss]

I didnt realize they kept peace center.

[chilly granite]

It's tdm exclusive

I enjoy it, but it's objectively bad

[unkempt moss]

Oh it was complete dogshit when they had that one mode. I just assumed it was because I don't like TDM.

[unkempt moss]

This map is why Alfa Acta is a bottom tier sponsor.

[chilly granite]

There's like 0 complexity or interest here

Doorways are poorly placed, so there's little effective cover

Sightlines are way too open, so you get loads of CBs and sniper

[unkempt moss]

Alfa Acta did two good things. Release the only backwards hat and the mini gun skin

[chilly granite]

Fortune stadium is a far, far better tdm map than minighn testing

[unkempt moss]

Of the TDM maps I have played, Sys is probably the one I like most.

[chilly granite]

That makes sense

It's the most interesting from a gadget using perspective

I enjoy peace because it's the most pure aim map

[unkempt moss]

I can't aim, so maybe thats why I dont like certain maps.

[chilly granite]

This is aim_awp_india from counterstrike 1.6 (this is copy from CSS so it's not that ugly lol)

Like, it's the same as peace center lol, just spawns and a few boxes

[unkempt moss]

Peace would have been a good terminal attack map then.

[chilly granite]

Peace center isn't a tdm map, it's an aim map, and I enjoy aim maps and I used to play 1v1 aim a bunch

But because peace is an aim map, there's little function or benefit to non-damage gadgets

[unkempt moss]

I will say, even though my aim is abysmal, my Titan is nasty.

[chilly granite]

Aim isn't a monolith, probably your flicks are good and your tracking is ass

Syshorizon's tdm selections have the most interesting layout from a gadget use perspective

There's several choke points, but also a lot flank routes

[unkempt moss]

This makes sense. My foundational shooter was shotgun dueling on gears of war.

[chilly granite]

Skyway/mansion tdm is the worst in the game, the spawns make the mansion an even worse aim map than peace center

Even more aim mappy aim map

Like, the structure is near identical to AWP India

Skyways office building is good, there should be better ways to gain elevation though, and both spawns are just kinda shitty?

I think probably the fix for the shitty spawns is to make the platform bigger, which might actually help improve attacking it from. Mansions side in cashout

Mansion side is the worst spawn tio

Mansion side of the office building being the worse spawn on office building is a reflection of cashout in tdm

Like yeah, tdm doesn't have an objective, but a disadvantage in a fight is a disadvantage in a. Fight over an objective too

Basically, you spawn there and you're immediately faced with 4 awful bottlenecks

And a zipline, which in cashout , is probably gone

That sucks lol

They should extend the platform towards mansion so that when you take jumppad, you air less time, and when you land, more space to move

[unkempt moss]

Does TDM have variants like hanging structures?

[chilly granite]

Yeah some

I think no duck and cover Monaco

[unkempt moss]

That would be so funny if they just had a map in an open field like duck and cover.

[chilly granite]

Lol

Skyway has standard and udlr in tdm

Udlr skyway doesn't really affect office, but it makes mansion even worse lol

What do u think of bernal?

Wait

Why is las Vegas not shadowrealemed when Vegas stadium exists and is better?

[unkempt moss]

Vegas Stadium?