💣┇weapons-gadgets

[indigo nexus]

* to spite

[chilly granite]

the bow can't even out dps the matter even with 100% headshots

the sr84 can, for context

[muted condor]

I’m going to cave your skin in with a hammer

[chilly granite]

100% drawn headshots, the peak dps on the bow, is 150 compared to 170 for matter bodyshots and 176 for sr84 headshots

[serene glade]

the mgl can do 1 damage, if we are doing whos weapon has the smallest penis i can assure you mine will win

[chilly granite]

and it's harder to hit bow headshots than sr84 headshots

[muted condor]

Normally I don’t mind if someone wants to share their thoughts on a weapon (unless their opinion isn’t mine) but there is no way to talk about the bow this much

Straight psychoses

[indigo nexus]

don't tempt fate

[chilly granite]

hahaha

[compact tundra]

But the bow has a much farther effective range, it also has this advantage on the M11 and should have it on the V9s but they buffed the damn Thing into the stratosphere

[muted condor]

The spear can do no damage:D

[chilly granite]

it doesn't have higher effective range if the enemy plays against the bow properly with lots of adad spam

[icy egret]

Another play session of the Finals, another complain session of the Akimbos' hipfire. Woopdeedoo.

[chilly granite]

the projectile is slower than character accel at around 15 meters lmao

[compact tundra]

I don't know what adad spam is but the bow can absolutely still outrange these weapons, it literally doesn't have falloff imc

[chilly granite]

left right spam

[serene glade]

thats usually called strafing

[chilly granite]

probaly just outed myself as an unc with adad spam

[muted condor]

I call that M&K jerking

[chilly granite]

but yeah, strafe spam is a pretty effective counter to the bow at even close range, at 25m human reaction time is faster than the arrow so you can just crouch when you see the arrow lol

and that applies to heavy too, heavy crouch high is enough to make the arrow miss if you're going for headshot, and the bow only has 100 bodyshot dps

so you should be aiming headshots, not bodyshots. 150 headshot dps is still bad but at least playble

[indigo nexus]

human reaction time + frame time + latency may be quite a lot slower than the arrow

[muted condor]

That applies to every weapon in the game

[chilly granite]

200ms to travel 25m, pro players are probably around 160ms, frame latnecy is probably 15ms, good server connection realistically 15ms

[indigo nexus]

also assuming you can notice the frame that the arrow is loosed

I expect you'll get much worse reaction time results than the usual tests just on the subtlety of the visual stimuli

[chilly granite]

it's a corner peek weapon so just crouch when you seee the bow user

I mean, situational obviously

[indigo nexus]

15ms is also reliant on both players living close to the server

[chilly granite]

that's why I say that you can't kill an aware player at 25meters

if they're unaware, then kills can happen at any range

and again, that's the distance where it's very reliable to intentioally dodge, ignoring that adad spam outpaces the arrow

the bow is a pretty nice ocunter to sr84 because a lot of sr84 end up hard scoped and oblivious to their surroundings lol

[compact tundra]

It's really not that bad, you're taking 150dmg bites outta people, and you keep acting like dps Is The deciding factor on how good the weapon is, the bow has really good ttk's on everyone but heavy and it's low dps is ok because it kills in so few shots

[chilly granite]

and you can abuse repeeks because the arrow has a faster fire rate, and firerate+travel time means that the sr84 player will usually end up walking into the arrow

[chilly granite]

the breakpoints are really bad actually

except on meidum**

[compact tundra]

1 shot light on head

2 shot medium on head

2 head shot and 1 body shot on heavy

These are good break points

[chilly granite]

firstly those are wrong

heavy is wrong**

two headshots on heavy unless you undercook

so the biggest issue with the bow is how tight the breakpoints are, there's very little room to breath, so it's extremely easy to undercook all three

[muted condor]

Then don’t undercook it

[compact tundra]

So it's even better than what I stated

[compact tundra]

That's just kinda a skill thing, the better you get at bow the better you'll be at cooking your shots

[chilly granite]

so the timing on cooking shots is 7ms, which is crazy tight

I think they should decrease the max bodyshot damage and buff the headshot multi so that cooking shots is more consistent

googling tells me that the max precision of skilled drummers in timing stuff is 6ms, so 7ms window is extremely high skill lol

that's one frame at 120fps

most other weapons start timing breakpoints from instant damage application, but the bow doesn't have instant damage apllication unless you've preddrawn, which comes with significant downsides

[muted condor]

Ngl this all sound like a skill issue

[chilly granite]

even with that consideration, a 1.25s ttk on heavy, with a predrawn bow, is not that fast with double headshots

the sr84 can do 1.3s with headshot+bodyshot

the only ttk that the bow beats the sr84 on is medium, with a full draw headshot and a partial draw bodyshot or undrawn headshot

50ms advantage for the bow vs sr84 is probably mitigiated by the slower walk speed of a drawn bow while peeking, but I haven't actually tested that

[compact tundra]

It's really not, 7ms is super generous, thats a crazy quick charge time

[chilly granite]

the only advantage of the bow vs sr84 in realistic scenarios is when farming light heads (1.06s vs 1.3s)

while actively dashing, but it's not hard to wait to land before pulling the trigger on teh sr84

and not having to ads which is super annoying

[compact tundra]

And being able to hip fire it, and no reloading

[chilly granite]

no relaoding is only realistically an advantage if you're missing shots, which is a problem for either weapon

not having to ads is the biggest actual advantage, buit that's mostly just annoying rather than being a serious advantag

[compact tundra]

I'm going to be honest most of your problems with bow can be solved with play time. It has a 7 millisecond charge time and can 2 shot a heavy while hip firing, that's damn fucking good

[chilly granite]

I mean, saying it's hipfiring when you're moving at ads speed is misleading

[compact tundra]

No that is a serious advantage, you maintain full movement while adsing, that's really good. I get charging slows you down but you can still maintain full fov while slide hopping and dashing which is super good

[muted condor]

Also TTK isn’t really important in the bow like it is on autos like the fcar or ANR

[compact tundra]

There is movement tech that ignores that tho

[chilly granite]

like jsut quickscope on the sr84?

i don't get the arugment that quickscoping on the sr84 is so bad

it's literally faster than the min draw time on the bow to kill a light with headshot

[compact tundra]

But that severely limits your fov and overall ability to aim unless your absolutely cracked

[chilly granite]

I mean I used to be sr84 main

before my friends made me try the bow lol

so firstly, 7ms draw being so fast makes it really hard to be consisntent; and consistentcy is more important than actual speed, when talking about breakpoints - I dont want to accidentaly overshoot or undershoot by 1 damage

like, elite drummers are meant to be only 6ms of timing resolution, which is a tiny, tiny gap between that and the bow

the best breakpoints the bow has are on medium because of the heavy break points, it's 0.75s ttk if you do drawn headshot > undrawn headshot

[muted condor]

Comparing drums to oranges

[chilly granite]

yeah drums are easier

[compact tundra]

I'm going to be honest as a musician I've never heard someone try to time their reaction time in milliseconds but drummers can go far faster than .6ms, music is muscle memory based, not reaction time based

[chilly granite]

you only need ot keep the timing consistent, where with the bow, you need the right 7ms frame out of 92

[muted condor]

Ima be real, I just don’t think you like the bow man

[chilly granite]

it's not reaciton time, it's the consistency of the timing, it's also 6 miliseconds, not .6s

[compact tundra]

Also drummers use you know actually sticks on drum heads, not just holding and releasing a button

[muted condor]

From what iv seen you want literally every aspect of the weapon adjusted in one way or another

[compact tundra]

So what about rolls or paradiddles

[chilly granite]

I love the bow I just have trauma from underbaking a ehadshot on a heavy stealing the point break box and watching him steal it from under me lol

[muted condor]

That’s every weapon not a bow thing

[chilly granite]

so it was from some study or soomething apprently, the best perfromers were drummers, who had around 6ms of timing resolution, so could consistently hit the right 6ms window, normal poeple had a timing resolution of 10ms

[indigo nexus]

underbaking is not a thing for most guns

[chilly granite]

ah I miss remembered, I couldn't headshot him becuase of the angle of the grav vortext

[compact tundra]

I'm the same way for dead zoning my lunges and dying because of it, but I certainly don't want the lunge charge up buffed

[chilly granite]

so it was press button grav vvortext > he walked up so I started drawing > headshots >bad angle grav vortext> bodyshot > 50hp left > bodyshot

[muted condor]

Miss timing/whiffing a head shot on someone stealing at the lest second

[chilly granite]

which is a full ttk on a lone enemy of 3.71s

[indigo nexus]

you can do that with a bow in addition to underbaking

[muted condor]

Yeah, because the bow isn’t meant to win straight TTK fights

[compact tundra]

I'm gonna be honest bro I'm pretty sure I've seen a trombone play faster than 6 millisecond timing (fly or die solo for bass trombone I'm pretty sure breaks that threshold) so I just don't know what that mean, cause like that would mean maybe 2 notes per second and we can go a lot faster than that

[chilly granite]

like you guys are doing all this math as if the bow is equal difficult to land shots as a sr84 but it's way harder because it isn't hitscan too

[chilly granite]

not saying that they can't go faster, but their precision, the repeatability, is 6ms

[muted condor]

What you’re asking for is a long range burst damage weapon to beat a heavy at a close range straight TTK fight

[chilly granite]

I didn't read the actual paper, but it was probably looking at how precisse their acuracy was after a gap; so hitting 1 beat every second, the varable range was +-3miliseocnds, for example

that would be a timing resoliution of 6ms for a drummer

[chilly granite]

so it isn't a long range burst damage weapon unless they buff the projectile speed becasue you can't hit long range shots on people who are aware of your existance and compotent at the game

[sudden pewter]

IRL drum QTE

[chilly granite]

and if it's a slug shotgun (which is it's effective role right now) it's too low dps

[livid cradle]

Bow is ment to be a pokey play style like the sniper or lever action shotgun

[chilly granite]

sure, but again, the dps is too low for that role with this projectile speed

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/poopman-poop-stain-homunculus-gif-5894943418330622711

[muted condor]

If TTK was all that mattered in a weapon dagger would be the only weapon ever played

[chilly granite]

^^^

[sudden pewter]

Lights in my favorite channel. Hate to see it

[muted condor]

Truly a vile plague

[sudden pewter]

Model + KS23 Duo goes hard AF in Point Break btw

[muted condor]

I have not played point break yet

[sudden pewter]

I’ve also had insane success with Minigun + Dual Blades Duo in PointBreak

It’s actually stupid. Heavy is taller than Medium so you can shoot above the dual blades Medium as they reflect fire intended for you

[muted condor]

Should run a all mini gun PB match

[chilly granite]

if you compare breakpoints to the model, which still has a better effective range than the bow, it tends to do worse btw, except at light

the bow is only really good at murdering a chain of lights

[sudden pewter]

Should play PB with me ❤️

[chilly granite]

if it became a bow meta, people would just run hhm and the light's tema would lose by default lol

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-gif-19383676

[sudden pewter]

https://medal.tv/games/the-finals/clips/lR5jgcqePr848hKYD?invite=cr-MSwzV24sMTU2ODAyMg&v=71

I’d post the clip itself but Discord file size limit so I have to use Medal :((

[muted condor]

Imagine

[chilly granite]

tbh I think a bow op patch would be funny af because 1) people would learn all the weird counters like throwing flowerpots at bows and 2) it'd give embark more data to help them balnce the bow

right now the matter is just a bow with better breakpoints, dps and nicer aiming expierence , I swap to it for ranked games lmao

[compact tundra]

Bro really thinks breaking bow will lead to it being more balanced. No if they broke bow then they'd rework the weapon to kill heavy with 4 headshots and leave it there for half a year

[sudden pewter]

Had almost 0 medals in 3 games and managed to turn them around

[chilly granite]

oh and people always forget that if you use a gadget then you have to start from undrawn again so a lot of times you're not seeing the pre-drawn ttk or breakpoints, it's super bad antisynergy with stuff liek breach charge

[muted condor]

Won’t play for me 😔

Or they could leave now at its current state that is very balanced and in a good spot

[chilly granite]

oh and the only fight where the bow beats the sr84's breakpoints (medium) it actually goes back to even if you don't have a predrawn bow

[sudden pewter]

The Bow Light wants the Bow to be broken, what else is new 😔

Waiting for a “nerf the flamethrower” or “light is the weakest archetype”

[chilly granite]

nah I odn't, which is why I generally argue for nerfs to the aspects that I do think are unreasonable such as teh hitbox size

evasive dash is op, iwthout it light is too weak, but evasive dash exists so light is probably slightly too strong rn

flamethrower is toxic when you fuck up but it's really shit tbh lol, that shit doesn't need nerfs it needs buff lol

[compact tundra]

I'm not gonna lie man, asking for a smaller hurt box on the projectile but wanting all the bow sides off bow to be more forgiving is just asking for a buff. Like I get bow has a hard learning curve but it is a good weapon and it's downsides are there for a reason, that balances it out

[chilly granite]

I litearlly think the draw time should be longer?

[sudden pewter]

And that negates every other suggestion you’ve made?

[compact tundra]

Light is the least viable archetype and arguably the weakest once you're fighting people who can aim

[chilly granite]

like it's not asking for the tradeoffs to be more forgiving, just less stupid

[sudden pewter]

Guards, blood eagle him.

[chilly granite]

7ms timing is too tight and draw is what makes the bow special anyway, so play into it

and the bow having .5x hedshot multi is really dumb, there's no way that's reasonable

[compact tundra]

Doesn't it do 124 on a fully drawn shot?

[chilly granite]

like nerf the damage to keep the total ehadshot damage the same if you want but make headshot more rewarding

the sr84 is 118

which is 1hs + 1 bodyshot on heavy, the bow is 1hs+1bodyshot+1 qucik melee

[sudden pewter]

Try it now boo

[muted condor]

So far Iv seen you ask for changes to the daw times, TTK, projectile size, damage numbers, headshot multiplier, fire rate, break points, and range. And that’s just that Iv seen of the last 32 hours

[sudden pewter]

Bow can OHK lights. 150 on a head

[compact tundra]

I meant on body

[sudden pewter]

Body was 120 iirc

[chilly granite]

and if you underbake your bow draw by 1ms, then it's not just 1 body 1 head and qucikmelee, it's 1 extra hp more

that is the most aggregious one becusae it blooms the ttk by so much if you underbake

[sudden pewter]

124 Max Draw on Body and 186 Max Draw on Head

[muted condor]

Hammer time

[sudden pewter]

First time using sledge in months btw ❤️

Look at how many coins we had

[chilly granite]

and you only have 50ms of advantage in ttk with predrawn bow vs teh sr84 to start with, so if you take the minimum time to be 100% sure that you got enough draw, 6ms, then you're only looking at a ttk advantage vs the sr84 on headshots on a heavy, of 36ms

it's really toxic

[sudden pewter]

What’s your IG boo so I can add you

[chilly granite]

I don't really care what they change but they should change something to try to give the bow a lil uplift, I absolutely don't want all of my suggestions to be implmeneted wholesale with no testing

[compact tundra]

I don't have Instagram, I actually don't have any socials besides discord and YouTube

[sudden pewter]

IG means “In-Game”

[chilly granite]

I think the biggest thing the bow should get is smaller projectile and faster projectile speed to make it actually more consistent at range

[muted condor]

I started using the aim for the first time because I need that drip but I suck ass with it

[sudden pewter]

I’m 27 I don’t use Instagram

[chilly granite]

unc squad unite

[sudden pewter]

Naw Unjust is one of the good ones the rest of you filthy lights can rot

I hereby decree none amongst your ilk will be one of the squad

[chilly granite]

play teh bow so much has sucked my sr84 skills

btw if you can hit more than 32% headshots, then the sr84 is better dps than the bow so you shouldn't use the bow anyway

[compact tundra]

Oh my username is unjustanemone72 but I'd have to wait till I'm off work to get the full embark id I think

[muted condor]

Bro pushing 30 and trying to get a minors insta 😔

[sudden pewter]

I’m #ForeverYoung

[muted condor]

Spotify did tell me age is just a number. Spotify is never wrong

[sudden pewter]

I will be a living undead, my soul tied to TF2

I’ll live forever, my Phylactery being my favorite unusual

[muted condor]

I played one match

[sudden pewter]

I have +7000 hours in TF2 and have been playing it since 2011

[muted condor]

Cool but who fucking asked
Also I want more official art from the finals

[sudden pewter]

Yeah the official art channel is dead

[muted condor]

When you off work?

[sudden pewter]

Today idk, hopefully around 6-7pst because I need to release a Beaver

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/ltg-gif-24337002

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1071067310766436372/1327328945678450779/caption.gif

[chilly granite]

hmm so i need to slowly drip feed sublte suggestions that the bow should get some love

[sudden pewter]

Your kind is commonplace, your tricks have no power here

I’m broadcasting FNAF Lore on 5G radio waves to counter your brainwashing with my own

I’m also Facebook friends with Obama and an armada of drones are inbound to your location

[serene glade]

my dad works at nintendo and he said the next balance patch has anyone who chooses the bow in the finals gets their home address leaked

[sudden pewter]

My name is John Embark (Middle name Developer) and I have it on good authority Lights will be tied to stakes and burnt.

I keep a list of individuals that disagree with me online and I have tallymarks written with gamer gunk and when the rapture comes all listed will be left behind

While the other gamers shatter the glass ceiling you’ll be left to rot and decay into Gollum-esque creatures

[serene glade]

that just might be what the game needs to be spiced up a little bit. lets make light insanely busted, but if they die in game they die in real life

risk reward

[chilly granite]

all lights are suicidial so it wouldn't change anythign

[serene glade]

thats all talk, this will be all action

[sudden pewter]

Lights when they learn they aren’t the main character and don’t win the 1v3:

[chilly granite]

I hate that flashes affect your team when explosions dont

[sudden pewter]

I’d like to see flashes appear in the damage counter post-death so I know who to yell at

[chilly granite]

don't they?

[sudden pewter]

I’ve seen so many dumbasses flash an empty room we’re moving into and then we get jumped by vampires

[chilly granite]

oh no it's sonar that does

[ornate sluice]

hey just asking is the virtual velocity not availabe to buy rn or am i just not seeing right?

[sudden pewter]

S3 Starter Pack?

No, it doesn’t seem to be available.

[ornate sluice]

is the skins for this game had like rotation when they release?

[chilly granite]

is the p90 op or just annyonig?

[ornate sluice]

im new to the game im still figuring stuff

[sudden pewter]

No. The starter packs are available for the duration of a season, though there’s some inconsistencies.

There’s:
Permanent Additions

• Skins released every Thursday
  Limited Additions
• Skins tied to limited time events or seasonal releases(irl seasons)
  Battlepasses
• Seasonal skins that will eventually return as a legacy BP is unlocked

There’s also unique weapon skins tied to seasons by completing challenges, and bonus pages in a BP that are only available for the duration of the season

[ornate sluice]

so will this bundle be available to purchase in this season or it just gone forever?

[sudden pewter]

The Season Starter bundle? It could return in the future but there’s no precedent for it.

There’s some things that are off limits, like bonus pages or prior seasons ranked rewards.

But season starter packs are just some skins with some MB thrown in, no reason they couldn’t come back if we begged but I don’t personally believe it’s likely 🙁

[unkempt moss]

Depends on when theys pockets is low. If they low enough they will do anyting

[sudden pewter]

Bare Feet

[ornate sluice]

ah i see

thx for the info Man

[unkempt moss]

Its coming. Were already getting midriff

First midriff. Then fully modeled anus. Then feet.

[serene glade]

The puckered up bundle

[unkempt moss]

My number one pick for head coach of the Arizona Cardinals is Kevin Stefanski.

[serene glade]

browns fire their head coach, becomes an immediate top hire. they are obviously doing something right over there in cleveland

[chilly granite]

btw does anyone think the sr84 doesn't need buffs/is strong enoguh atm?

[wide stratus]

Definitely not op

[compact tundra]

Im so mad that we can't get bonus pages even if we payed for the battle pass when it came out. Like I get wanting them to be exclusive but I bought the season 5 battle pass when it released, I should be able to clamp the bonus pages

[sudden pewter]

At the very least we keep the BP itself should it not be finished.

[compact tundra]

Yeah but I want the black version of the shirtless vest, and I paid for it dammit

[sudden pewter]

I very much hate the idea some people buy a BP for its “exclusivity” rather than a bunch of cosmetics at a heavily discounted price. But I also understand Embarks willingness to bend the knee to this type of thinking

It’s the industry standard, although something being the standard doesn’t mean it’s right. I myself wouldn’t mind finishing the S5 BP for those tattoos from the bonus pages

[compact tundra]

I fell into this trap for the tgm25 pass. I wanted the durag and the earrings but really it was exclusivity

[sudden pewter]

Gross

[compact tundra]

I have a durag and you don't L

[sudden pewter]

I finished it bwo 😔

[compact tundra]

You got it too?

[sudden pewter]

I finished the TGM pass yes, I liked the weapon skins

[compact tundra]

That's fair. I liked the nails, earrings, and durag. Most the rest is just waiting till I have a skin it fits on

[sudden pewter]

I don’t care if they become permanent fixtures of the game. Exclusivity for exclusivities sake is stupid and woe upon all those who think otherwise

I’m glad the old BP’s made a return, players new and old earn the contents the exact same way, earning through play. So the exclusivity argument boils down to “I was playing the game during X time” and that isn’t a strong enough argument to bar them from being available.

Ranked rewards however, bear more weight. As players had to deal with Embarks shitty balance decisions and matchmaking/servers to earn their rewards through skilled play or getting carried by their betters.

[compact tundra]

I hate exclusivity unless it's my precious OB skins, no one else may have them

[compact tundra]

Oh I am too, I have a friend in getting into the game and they have already bought one

[sudden pewter]

OB skins should remain exclusive as it shows loyalty to the game as Embark was finding its feet. But things like bonus pages make no sense.

There’s a difference between playing the game before its official release and playing the game during its standard seasonal cycle

[indigo nexus]

I would think it makes sense that a skin named after a specific chronological event may be exclusive intuitively but I don't see what that has to do with the ethical side of it

you didn't do anything special by playing the game as it was first gaining traction, after all. You were there to have fun like everyone else since

[compact tundra]

Like I get why bonus pages are exclusive, it gives casuals at least something exclusive. But I hate it cause now there's some really good skins that are just forever locked away. The worst one to me is the black bow skin with the red flowers. My friend mains bow and that's by far her favorite bow skin she's seen but she'll never be able to get it cause ExcLuSiviTy

[sudden pewter]

That’s a fair assessment, but surely you can see a cosmetic tied to a chronological event specifically (OB participation) would be exclusive to it? Opposed to the standard seasonal cycle?

[indigo nexus]

The first part, yes, but the last clause? The standard seasonal cycle doesn't seem different in my eyes.

[unkempt moss]

Bad game for a sniper like that, used by bad teammates. The weapon is fine. Look how it performs in situations outside of the main game mode. It was insane in terminal attack and still is in powershift.

[indigo nexus]

OB -> S1 was not especially distinct from the following seasonal transitions, content-wise it was basically what would later be 'the usual'

[sudden pewter]

The maps stay, the weapons stay, but bonus pages cosmetics don’t. That disconnect is what I take issue with. It’s not a dealbreaker for me, myself, an I. But I understand why some would like to see them return

If nothing else, they could be repackaged as paid bundles. So players that played during the relevant season would save $$$ by earning rather than purchasing

Tbh I was mainly decrying exclusivity for its own sake in a mad rant to an audience only I can see

[muted condor]

I just want those OSPUZ stompers

[sudden pewter]

The Ospuze page this season is quite decent actually

Shame the Ospuze sponsor track blows it out of the fucking water with the tiger stripes holy shit 🐯

Embark clearly has a favorite child, and it’s

[muted condor]

Tiger stripes with a crop top is a massive W

[sudden pewter]

Absolutely, I can’t wait to earn them and don the Heavy Hitter tiger mask/tail

[chilly granite]

fair take, I didn't play terminal attack beyond like 1 time thoguh but power shift it's quite powerful

I think even in point break it's a little underwhelming and it's certified underpowered for cashouts imho

[muted condor]

I do want just a plain black one though without the outer jackets to perfect my old drip

[sudden pewter]

Until Embark introduces mode specific weapon balance (not happening) I can’t imagine the sniper being adjusted for anyone’s sake. It’s stupid OP on PS and mediocre everywhere else

[chilly granite]

I feel like the bow ahs pretty similar splits to the sr84 for a weapon that practically speaking, doesn't have teh same effective range

I don't think I've ever been bullied by a bow on powershift

[sonic zephyr]

just remove the scope. on paper its better than the repeater and the bfr but its absolutely cumbersome with the scope

[chilly granite]

that's a good take tbh, would probably make it less op on powershift too

[sudden pewter]

If this is a veiled “IronSights on Sniper” you’ll be executed immediately.

[chilly granite]

I wasn't gonna say that but a 3x is fine

[unkempt moss]

It doesnt fit in a dynamism shooter™. The play style of a gun like that is antithetical to dynamism.

[chilly granite]

same for cb and bfr thouhg, they're so toxic and anti-dynamism

[sudden pewter]

Ah yes, the dedicated “+70m” gun that’s balanced around fighting at such ranges vs the “Heavy pocket sniper” that’s still incredibly effective even at 15m and the Repeater.

[sonic zephyr]

what would be the problem with that? works just fine with repeater and bfr

[unkempt moss]

The CB and BFR function more like DMRs in that they can be used inside more effectively than the sniper. The sniper loses to healing basically unless you headshot a light.

[chilly granite]

same with the bow

[sonic zephyr]

DMR's dont cycle. the closest thing heavy has to a dmr are the deagles

[sudden pewter]

And it should have stayed that way

Why the fuck did embark add the BFR when one of the principles of Heavy was lacking ranged poke potential without downsides

Akimbo’s have to deal with awful bloom scaling with RoF. BFR is point and click

[unkempt moss]

Im speaking from a gameplay and effective range standpoint.

[sonic zephyr]

i mean in most games snipers and dmr's have the same range. they differ by damage and firerate

[unkempt moss]

The BFR and CB both have the ability to defend themselves up close somewhat. While the sniper has to be used like a shotgun to be useful in cashout.

[chilly granite]

very good take, deagles were fine bfr is just bullshit even if it's not op

and i'm pretty sure it's op rn too

[unkempt moss]

The deagles should have never been long range. Please stop pushing this.

[chilly granite]

cb and bfr being bodyshot for peak efficacy is also very, very bullshit, accuracy should be rewarded

[sonic zephyr]

as of rn that would mean either make them 3 shot on light which is awfull, or make them oneshot a light on headshot which is also awfull

[sudden pewter]

Accuracy is rewarded, on CB in particular

Light is leaking out

[chilly granite]

feel like the revolver is just a better designed cb

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif

[chilly granite]

rewards accuracy more and is better balanced

[muted condor]

Revolver is the goat

[sonic zephyr]

2 different weapon classes but in terms of how it feels to play against definetly

[chilly granite]

I feel like it would be fine to give the cb revolver's stats but with very slightly nerfed fire rate and much better range/falloff

[muted condor]

Revolver🤝mini gun
Being dope and consistently balanced weapons that are fun to play

[chilly granite]

^^^

[muted condor]

Both are what all weapons should aspire to be

[sonic zephyr]

oooof idk about the minigun here

[chilly granite]

do you think minigun op? or up?

[sonic zephyr]

up. rn the payoff between losing mobility and gaining superior firepower isnt really there

[chilly granite]

tryhards mitigate with slide and bhop and with the changes to spread when crouch I think it's mostly balanced

[muted condor]

Mini gun is A tier and I’ll die on this hill

[chilly granite]

I think nerf the op weapons and minigun is perfectly balaned

[sudden pewter]

Minigun is the farthest thing from OP. Insane glaring weaknesses that the entire team has to play around. It’s strong, but it gets fucked in the ass by any poke presence or burst options

[chilly granite]

massed cbs are cancer

[muted condor]

Mini gun users will always be a higher class of being than shak users

[sudden pewter]

Shak is viable in all situations, Minigun needs proper positioning and LoS for longer periods of time

Any form of cover whatsoever against any semi-auto option lessens the Miniguns effectiveness as it can’t be used to peak properly

[chilly granite]

shak is very op thoguh

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/skill-issue-urge-resist-cat-gif-25536160

[muted condor]

It’s definitely one of the best weapons but I wouldn’t say it’s over powered

[chilly granite]

I mean, it felt op when I used it

[sudden pewter]

It’s not OP. It’s the golden standard of balance

Small Magazine, Unique Split Bullet Mechanic that limits its effective range, 3s reload

[chilly granite]

if I think something is OP I'll try it and feel it out

[sudden pewter]

Wrong answer, you should be trying everything

[muted condor]

It’s just really good because it’s decent at everything

[chilly granite]

and for me, the shak felt pretty op

the small mag is slightly annoying but I don't think it's enough to compensate for how good it feels and heavy's suriviability

the arn is really op, it's good at litearlly everything and has a mag the size of the mon

moon*

the bow would be way better if the arn didn't exist

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/poopman-poop-stain-homunculus-gif-5894943418330622711

Your antics grow tiresome.

[chilly granite]

wait do you think the arn is weak?

[sudden pewter]

It’s okay

[chilly granite]

ok, what do you think is op?

[sudden pewter]

It’s a ranged automatic option with a cool reload mechanic that requires dumping the first mag, it loses fights in CQC to dedicated close quarter options

V9S. Didn’t need the buffs. And the “nerf” that means heavy needs 1 more shot to kill is a nothing burger

Embark say it wasn’t picked as often as the 93R last season so they buffed it, completely forgetting that the 93R was so busted it had an almost 80% pickrate in their drug induced stupor

[chilly granite]

ehh it needed somethign to differentiate it from the m11, althoguh i think the nerf (which is also basically a revert) was basically irrelevent

[sudden pewter]

It wasn’t prevalent because Lights are a hivemind that brainlessly copy what pros use

[unkempt moss]

God hes spittin

[chilly granite]

true though

other lights flame me for not following pro builds

[sudden pewter]

I get it, the concept of trickle down balance isn’t a new one. But the way pros play and take advantage of a weapons strengths are totally different from 90% of Lights stuck in Silver

Light is simultaneously the weakest and strongest archetype because bad players are bad at playing Light, while good players make the most of Lights mobility

[compact tundra]

You think if I grinded cloak and sniper to ruby and made a ADHD edit style video on how it's the most broken thing ever we could see sniper and cloak hit a 60% pick rate

[chilly granite]

yes lmao

[sudden pewter]

Yes, genuinely. Because the V9S is still stupid broken, but because the hivemind saw “nerf” in front of the V9S in the patch notes the majority of the swarm wrote it off

It’s still stupid prevalent in pro play, and insanely effective

[outer crow]

not op of course - very situational gun

[chilly granite]

I think it needs some little buffs

or thevastly better weapons to get nerrfed

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/orange-cat-bite-orange-cat-orange-cat-attack-gif-10142361798712867466

[unkempt moss]

Only change i would make is that weird clunkiness with sliding and spooling on mini. Would make it feel a lot better

[compact tundra]

Minigun is the 1v1 king outside of duck and cover tactics. I think it's pretty well balanced as is and doesn't really need to be touched

[muted condor]

Eat concrete, hold obj, melt lights
Life good
#minigunsweep

[sudden pewter]

Minigun doesn’t need to be touched whatsoever

[unkempt moss]

It would feel better if the spool didnt stop your slide in some occasions.

[sudden pewter]

I’m still trying to process you want the Shak of all things nerfed

I’m fuming, day ruined

[muted condor]

Leave it be so embark doesn’t accidentally over tune it then drastically nerf it into oblivion and never buff it again

[chilly granite]

true though

[unkempt moss]

I'm going to make a spiteful game feedback post about it for them to ignore

[chilly granite]

I mean, I feel like embark tends to go way too hard or light on nerfs/buffs

[chilly granite]

I think the shak would be fine with a tiny bit more recoil

[sudden pewter]

You are a Bow Light, Shak is fine.

[muted condor]

Adjusted the weapon swap Tim by 0.02 seconds
Increased damage by 75 and increased fire rate by 200%

Average embark patch notes

[chilly granite]

exactlly

[sonic zephyr]

forgot the annual charge and slam nerf

[outer crow]

https://tenor.com/view/byuntear-emoji-emoji-chorando-emoji-cry-cry-gif-25060390

[sudden pewter]

You forgot them referencing stats that aren’t available to us

[muted condor]

Oh I forgot to ad the obligatory: “We are looking to increase the viability of melee weapons and we definitely care about them as a whole.”

[sudden pewter]

“We saw Minigun was having an uptick of 12% fun on Monaco so we’re cutting off your legs at the ankle, we think this will help balance with the upcoming melee rework in S25”

[chilly granite]

stats with bad internal names too, the called it "bow damage ramp up start time" but it's the "bow minimum draw time"

like, the amount of time it takes to loose an arrow

[sudden pewter]

Because we’re a Swedish Studio we only work 30% of the year, see you guys in another 2 months with 0 balance changes in between.

[sonic zephyr]

IVE HAD IT WITH THESE PHANTOMSTRIKES WTF MAN!!!

[sudden pewter]

Also the infamous “We need to let the dust settle before we make any adjustments” - Said in relation to the blatantly obvious thing that’s performing insane regardless of skill level

Never forgive them for the H+ on release holy fuck

[sonic zephyr]

speaking of dust. How much dust do you think the mgl has gathered by now?

[sudden pewter]

We’re never getting the MGL rework, because it’s “low priority”

Along with anything else not related to ESPORTS because apparently it’s a “vital” part of the game according to Embark

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/fight-fighting-kick-air-kick-gif-1724417705250829699

Spear game play

[sudden pewter]

We’re getting that melee rework in S25 man it ain’t happening

At least we can glean they’re working on the Barricade rework

[sonic zephyr]

cant wait for majors 2026 to get this game into a new low

[compact tundra]

I fucking hate so much that they arbitrarily decided that not only does esports have to decide everything now, but that we have to special cater our esports to be as similar to other shooters as possible, so only standard guns are allowed to be viable, completely ignoring all the super unique weapons we have that we should show off

[sudden pewter]

Don’t worry bro they hear you! Never fear, the TGM will be returning in 2026!!!

Get hyped!!!! Buy the premium skin bundles!!!

[compact tundra]

Like the whole reason the majors excite me is cause I wanna see what a top sword would look like, what a top minigun looks like, what a top mgl or dual blades looks like. I love seeing off meta players really bring the best outta their picks even if they don't Usually make championship Sunday. It's cool to watch off meta players, it's why in melee I love amsa and Junebug so much, they're incredibly fun to watch

[sudden pewter]

I play The Finals casually, my only interest in comp players is their thoughts on balance at the highest level. I’m not interested in watching them play, I wanna play. I’m completely disconnected from streamer culture. I’m not the target audience.

It’s frustrating wanting to play the game and seeing it neglected in favor of propping up ESPORTS which don’t affect the game itself beyond sponsored bundles and content. All the while balance issues persist because Embark “doesn’t wanna shake up the meta” because of aforementioned ESPORTS

Shout out to Labubu for having the giant fucking veiny balls to use off meta things and perform well. But beyond that singular instance I don’t care about ESPORTS. Not the bundles, the prospect of fame, glory, or any other buzzwords.

I hope this year the TGM draws in more players because we need more blood, and I personally don’t believe shifting everything into ESPORTS is the silver bullet Embark thinks it is. I would love to be proven wrong

[sonic zephyr]

it wont. or do you for instance care about an e-sports event of a game you dont play?

[sudden pewter]

At least casual players had some bones thrown at them this season, Point Break is quickly becoming my favorite mode in the game.

[compact tundra]

Yes, I have never touched melee in my life, I actively watch the esports scene cause it's genuinely so fun

[sudden pewter]

Balance and balance adjustments needs to be more consistently adjusted moving forward though.

[iron zenith]

whats the most likely spear skin shovel, montante or scythe?

[sonic zephyr]

but you have never touched melee in your life so they didnt gain a player

[compact tundra]

Bro they couldn't anyways, Nintendo won't sell the damn game anywhere and I don't own a PC for slippi

[sudden pewter]

Poor 🫵

The Gabe Cube will uplift you like science uplifts greater apes

You’ll go from smacking sticks together to modding Skyrim in no-time

[compact tundra]

For me I love esports (specifically in the finals) because I can play, I can enter locals if the scene pops off, I can watch the pros and see what they're doing and apply it to my gameplay. I just hate that embark has arbitrarily decided that esports is the correct way the game should be played and everything else is irrelevant. Like just look at smash for evidence on how stupid that is. Smash hates its own comp scene and they still carve out a place for themselves to thrive. Esports shouldn't control the game cause they'll pop up anyways if the game is good enough

[sudden pewter]

At the very least “Comp” Finals is the same format/game that casuals play. My only other frame of reference is TF2 (where I hail from) and the casual/comp scene are essentially two different games

But players that only play casually (which I’d love stats for) gain nothing but novelty from anything ESPORTS related

I’m still waiting for tangible benefits from the addition of Mythics and the Ultimate BP. Servers are still ass, balance is still up in the air, where did all that extra revenue go?

[compact tundra]

The servers are what anger me the most. The fact that we have had a world majors and the servers haven't been fixed in damn near a year fuckin pisses me off. How can we worry about something like a major when the game fundamentally doesn't work

[sonic zephyr]

embarks mistake is prioritizing esports or pushing it in any sort of way.

I bet Money that there are games out there that are (due to balance, skill ceiling etc.) more qualified and more fitting to be e-sport games than the current Powerhouses like League, CSGO, but have little to no relevance in the e-sports scene simply because those games are unpopular.

Embark doesnt understand that to have a proper e-sport scene, you need an audience. To have an audience, you need a popular game. To have a popular game, you need to make it fun.

[sudden pewter]

The draw of the finals is the chaos but pro play encourages minimizing chaos and streamlining play for quick skill-based engagements

[sonic zephyr]

they've built a burgerplace and now are rebuilding it to a pizza-shop

[sudden pewter]

Melee has been floundering since its addition with the sole exception being Sledge

[sudden pewter]

So true breastie 🥛
||(You’ve unlocked reaction privileges but if I see another Iron Sight sniper suggestion you’re being excommunicated)||

[compact tundra]

I think sword was decently balanced prior to S6 but a little oppressive against lower level lobbies, tho it's never been meta like sledge

[sudden pewter]

Sword had stupid tech that definitely pushed it over the edge, but you’re right it’s polarizing based on skill level

[sonic zephyr]

oh you motherfucker IT WAS YOU THAT DEACTIVATED THEM?!

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-gif-8037700062970091444

[compact tundra]

What tech are we calling stupid Mr. C4tter

[sudden pewter]

Bronze Babies can barely hit moving targets so the hypermobility offered by the sword makes it cheesy, but in higher elo sword gets splurted on the approach because better players don’t let the sword into its effective range, and when it does they can punish it.

I cant even write sword off as a “gimmick” weapon like the dagger either

[compact tundra]

Yea I think swords main problem is how hard it is to hit but how rewarding said hits are. So new players can barely even keep up with a sword while experienced ones clown on it

[muted condor]

I’d bet it lost more players than it could possibly gain

[sudden pewter]

I like the clamp, forces sword users to aim the lunge

Needs work though, the fact Embark made such a large change to sword then didn’t make adjustments based on feedback is more fuel for the fire

Went from lunge spam to lunge to close gap and then M1 spam

[compact tundra]

Honestly at this point, even tho I fundamentally disagree with clamp as a mechanic, if they buffed it to like 145° I'd settle

[sudden pewter]

80, take it or leave it

[sonic zephyr]

what's clamp?

[young pewter]

0

[compact tundra]

God no, I want to at least be able to look beside me

Also with this buff we remove multi hit

[sudden pewter]

Aim Clamp refers to locking the view of the player into a specific angle based on action

[sonic zephyr]

so the aim assist for melee?

[young pewter]

0 degree clamp
double the right click's launcg speed
remove lung on the m1
add movement penalty on m1
make m3 do 1948362637 damage

[sudden pewter]

It’s not aim assist, it prevents you from moving your cursor beyond a certain range when a lunge is initiated

[sonic zephyr]

oh this part.

yeah thats far to technical for me i wait this debate out

[unkempt moss]

A thrusting attack means I should be able to spin side to side obviously.

[sudden pewter]

When you lunge, an invisible rectangle is placed in your FoV
You can’t look beyond that rectangle

[young pewter]

no clamp and no lunge
problem solved

[sonic zephyr]

i've understood more like i dont have any opinion on it because i've never really played sword to understand its implications on its viability

[sudden pewter]

At least you’re honest about it. I can appreciate that

[unkempt moss]

Sword has been memed in to some hypermobile ultra skilled weapon. Its the biggest gas light in the finals.

[sudden pewter]

The hypermobility was mainly the lunge paired with dash. As for ultra skill, definitely a cope. It’s a melee weapon

[unkempt moss]

Its not even the most skilled melee in its weight.

[sudden pewter]

Not saying melee weapons don’t take skill btw, ofc to perform well requires skilled play. But melee weapons make use of different skills than firearms do. And they are easier to use

[unkempt moss]

Legitimately, the base movement speed, specs, and model size of light makes sword the lowest skill melee weapon in the game.

[sonic zephyr]

any reason you excluded the low hp?

[unkempt moss]

Yeah, because the damage and mobility negate that on light.

[sudden pewter]

Sword Players are at a crossroads because Sword is in an objectively worse state than it was prior. And ofc in typical embark fashion the job was left half done

[unkempt moss]

Let me preface that with people have to not be morons in general.

[serene glade]

im starting to think the insane health regen lights get negates low HP 🤫

[compact tundra]

They really don't on a melee weapon who's main attack, the one most low skill players use, has the same breakpoints as riot shield, a melee weapon on an archetype with 100 more health and an invulnerable shield

[unkempt moss]

Explain this to me. Why should light be allowed to engage easily on the tank class in melee?

[sudden pewter]

6s for Lights
9s for Medium
12s for Heavy

Lights are out of the fight and back in the fastest but that’s not important because Light is bad and weak and needs buffs immediately and Heavy is OP and too strong and needs nerfs immediately.

[compact tundra]

They can't, the "tank class" can shred light and sword wins because of aim issues

[unkempt moss]

Do you think thats a problem?

[compact tundra]

The aim issue or the fact that heavy can shred sword

[unkempt moss]

When i play dagger and I get shot to death, do you think my first thought is god I just lose because heavy is so strong.

Or was it that I was out of position, made a bad risk reward judgment, or the servers ate the back stab.

[serene glade]

probably server

[compact tundra]

I don't think sword should be better against heavy if that's what you're asking. What I want is the return of reliable combos, something that never affected the heavy matchup

[sudden pewter]

I wish Embark would release media pertaining to Archetype design vs strengths/weaknesses based on gadget/specializations because I hate how commonplace:

• Archetypes are referred to as classes (HML)
• How often players can’t grasp that the archetypes have strengths and weaknesses
• How easy it is to pigeonhole HML into generalized roles like DPS/HEALER/TANK

Honestly #🎓┇eggcademy is dead and there’s so much more it can offer

[serene glade]

with the game balanced around lights HP to make sure nothing kills them too quick so they always have time to safely disengage and get their HP back. please nerf heavy im begging

[sudden pewter]

Lights would rather die than admit they’re bad and are being punished for poor positioning. I died to it therefore it’s OP

[unkempt moss]

Okay. You brought up riot shield. Why are you engaging on the impenetrable shield. Do you know what your shield is on light? Fast, small, common sense.

[serene glade]

that bow guys vocab consisted of constant OP and UP usage so yeah

[unkempt moss]

Ill never understand why we let light class get away with not having to improve

[sudden pewter]

Because it’s the most vulnerable to being punished

[serene glade]

games already losing players, most played class. gotta keep them in somehow

[sudden pewter]

The most populous archetype is Light, with the lowest winrate. The least populous class is Heavy, with the highest winrate.

[compact tundra]

Lights mobility and size doesn't make up for swords inadequacies, the mobility only works on players that don't have monstrous aim, and sadly I mostly queue against head beamers so that doesn't do me too much good. I think lights fine overall and their mobility helps a lot with there small health pool but on melees they just aren't good enough for that to make up for the lack of ranged damage. Lights health pool isn't the issue, it's the weapons themselves and their inability to contend with high damage guns

I don't blame flamethrower or spear when I lose to them with sword. But when a M11 light strafes a bit and can dodge my main attack I'm going to blame clamp

[serene glade]

i feel like the lunge should be committal tho like that

[unkempt moss]

In this scenario do you think maybe you made a bad risk on using m2?

[serene glade]

like i dont right click with sledge against lights ever because the risk is not worth it when chasing them

[unkempt moss]

Maybe he's not a beamer, maybe he shot the thing moving in a straight line at him?

[compact tundra]

I'm ok with it being committal but the problem is the ease of counter, holding A or D shouldn't counter an entire weapons design. I just would like more wiggle room to actually be able to chase someone staffing instead of being deadlocked into a mostly straight line with no recourse for even basic movements

[unkempt moss]

ITS A THRUST ATTACK

When i throw a hadouken i dont say this guy shouldn't be able to jump that and beat the brakes off of me. I shoulf be able to wiggle my fireball around the screen to hit things because I made a bad call cmon mannnn

[sudden pewter]

Yeah but for almost a year sword let them do full 360’s and hit anyone within a certain radius of the lunge, so losing that after it’s existed for so long is upsetting

It’s what they’re used to, can’t blame them for Embarks shitty decisions

[unkempt moss]

So embarks previous bad design is enough foundation for things to never change?

[serene glade]

cmon mannnn is trademarked bud

[unkempt moss]

That's the same thinking that will keep the MGL rework in never ever status

[compact tundra]

Well since dash and M1 is genuinely brain numbing boring uh yes. If your argument is that thrust should be more or less a straight line then congrats the issue of sword dominating lower lobbies and floundering in higher lobbies only intensifies. Cause dash and M1 is great against lower level players but sucks against people who can aim or throw a goo nade

[sudden pewter]

“Low Priority” according to Embark

[unkempt moss]

Thats a problem of the weapon design on m1. What do you want m1 to do? Its a sword you swing it.

[compact tundra]

I get that but this only intensifies swords balance issues. The thrust being able to turn is what closes in on higher level players and is something most lower lobby swords don't even do

[serene glade]

just a 1 damage buff for now im begging

[unkempt moss]

So what is your idea for making the sword viable in low and high elo all the way to pros

Combos and no clamp?

Its crazy that M2 functioned like spear m2 but better for so long.

The sword is effectively a better spear as is. The sword has more thrusting attacks than spear does.

Give the spin attack to sword, and lunge to spear. Easy. Then you can beyblade and spear can be a spear.

The problem is you got away with murder for so long and it got fixed at embark speeds.

[sudden pewter]

Sword was 90% Lunge for so long having to use the primary attack at all is jarring

[unkempt moss]

Good.

[sudden pewter]

Embark is so freakishly inconsistent

[compact tundra]

• Remove multi hit
• Buff clamp to whatever degree lets me mostly turn to my side or implement some kind of sensitivity nerf while lunging that can't be bypassed by M&K

For damage we can go 2 routes depending on how it should interact with medium

Option 1 is old sword
Swing = 74
Lunge = 136-140

This makes mediums die to 2 lunges which encouraged lunge spamming but also makes the swing less damaging and overall makes sword easier to deal with in lower lobbies since it nerfs dash M1

Option 2

Medium dies to 2 Lunges and a QM
Lunge = 124
Swing = 86

This causes mediums to not die to 2 lunges making lunge spamming only work on heavy and overall increases the need for combos and break point counting

But it comes with the downside of keeping the current M1 damage and making sword skill good at dash M1 against lower skill players

[unkempt moss]

What do you want of these two?

[sudden pewter]

Sensitivity nerf isn’t an option because DPI macros/keys exist

[compact tundra]

Tho I have been cooking up a sword rework utilizing the reload button to maybe balance this issue out

[unkempt moss]

Is it the mcree roll?

[compact tundra]

Yea I get that, it's sad cause it's what I'd want. Honestly bow that I'm thinking maybe 80° would work, I'm thinking I might be misunderstanding the clamp degrees

[unkempt moss]

It sounds like instead of a lunge it should he a multi hitting cleave on m2.

[sudden pewter]

Same reason Embark had to cap V9S RoF cap because nerds would bind shooting to the mousewheel

[compact tundra]

No that's for dual blades. I'm thinking about maybe separating lunge into 2 different things to maybe make some combos work differently, so a lower damage lower clamp lunge for fighting lights, and a higher damage lunge for fighting mediums and heavies, but I'm still brainstorming it

[unkempt moss]

So you want two lunges, im assuming they look different.

[sudden pewter]

80% is fairly generous, it’s almost the full standard FoV iirc

[unkempt moss]

You should be able to hit things off screen.

[compact tundra]

Honestly the second one cause I like having to combo mediums rather than just 2 lunging them, but I also hate how dash M1 brings the overall skill perception of sword down

[tough nebula]

CL40 NEEDS TO BECOME A GADGET

[compact tundra]

Huh?

[tough nebula]

REMOVE IT

[unkempt moss]

Tell game feedback.

[compact tundra]

No, it's really not good unless you're a bad light

[unkempt moss]

Sorry that was meant for CL40 fella

[compact tundra]

Your good

[sudden pewter]

Yeah that’s dumb AF. Now Mediums can bring a Repeater to poke Lights and a CL40 to finish them off without needing LoS due to splash. This will certainly fix the imaginary balance issues you think exist and not infuriate you further.

I died to it, therefore it’s OP is an evergreen statement and I’m going to coin it.

[unkempt moss]

The biggest thing to me with Sword is that it looks and plays how it should. Its boring.

[sudden pewter]

But it can’t be changed fundamentally or you’ll alienate its existing fanbase.

[unkempt moss]

Sure it can. It'll find a new fan base.

[sudden pewter]

Reminder there’s unfortunately a subset of our community that onetricks weapons and if it’s changed they’ll quit altogether.

[serene glade]

dont worry lil fella, i have that listed in my balance changes idea already posted in game feedback, theyll take a look at it for sure and free us all frmo this HELL

[unkempt moss]

If I had a button that made rhe sword cool and engaging, fundamentally changing it thus killing the fan base. But, the button also guarantees it'll bring in that equal number of players from outside. Would you hit that button?

Becaude judging from the discord there's like 8 players we would lose that are just very vocal.

The fan base calls their primary fire spam and they don't want to spam m2. Sounds like they want a fundamental change but dont want to learn a new thing.

[sudden pewter]

I don’t feel adding utility to every melee weapon via the reload key is healthy for the game but Embark refuses to do anything with them in general so what’s the harm in theorizing

My only fear is melee being too effective given their ease of use

[unkempt moss]

I think adding a second lunge because different health pools is probably not effective.

This button is for lights, this button is for not light.

[sudden pewter]

Man if only there were limited time gamemodes that could double as a window to test proposed changes to weapons

[unkempt moss]

Thats a good idea. Post it in game feedback.

[serene glade]

i seriously thought that one event was gonna change sledge to have an uppercut

[compact tundra]

Trust I get that, the reason it's taking so long is I really wanna consider not making melee too powerful so they don't break the good

[serene glade]

boy was i wrong for believing embark could make a change

[unkempt moss]

You know what. Im going to be good faith and give sword a real try like I did with dagger.

[sudden pewter]

It’s ultimately on Embarks plate but they’re so ready to put it aside and eat desert first (ESPORTS)

[unkempt moss]

Googs, let's ride.

[serene glade]

im at work champ

[unkempt moss]

Welp, I tried.

[serene glade]

getting paid to browse discord as we speak

[sudden pewter]

Have either of you considered that since Whales are mammals we would realistically milk one? Imagine how much cheese we could make.

[unkempt moss]

Their fat is supposedly very nutritious, so i could see it.

[serene glade]

whale cheese, we could crash the dairy markets

[unkempt moss]

And we'd have to stop killing them. Double win.

[sudden pewter]

Whale Milk is 80% fat

[unkempt moss]

So butter instead?

[sudden pewter]

Me looking at my cat maid support Medium knowing damn well it’s a Mammal

[unkempt moss]

I'm a mammal Greg

[compact tundra]

Don't worry king, after consulting gooking it has been decided that sledges reload button utility is the upper cut so that you get a cool ability with slight knock back and an attack that acts as a lay up for the M2

[unkempt moss]

M2 throw*

[serene glade]

his dad works for nintendo so i believe it

[unkempt moss]

Duck hunt hammer

Spear players dont deserve the throw anymore. They're the sword players of heavy

The first time I m2 a light from 40m will be glorious.

And then my hammer returns and I smash a wall down with it to kill another light

[wraith orchid]

die

[compact tundra]

I was kinda more thinking using the reload button as a harder hitting stab attack with no lunge. So then we could nerf the M1 down to 70ish and keep M2 at 124 and make the reload a stab that comes out quickly but has a higher end lag, no lunge, but good damage to combo with lunge. But I'm still kinda brainstorming it

[sudden pewter]

How would that be any different from the pre nerf lunge + QM?

I mean, if the lunge lag isn’t being touched it’s no different from now with Lunge + M1. I’ll permit it

[compact tundra]

I don't want to touch the light combo, lunge + QM is necessary for sword to not be demolished by other lights

[sudden pewter]

Sorry boo thang, Embark said Light isn’t allowed to be OHK and melee combos involving QM are a no-no.

[compact tundra]

The point of the stab is to allow us to lower the M1 back down to 70-74 without forcing the lunge to be buffed to compensate. So now M1 can be nerfed to ease lower level lobbies frustration, but lunge can stay at 120ish so lunge spamming isn't encouraged

[compact tundra]

Wdym, QM combo's are still on sword. Lights current combo is still lunge + QM

[wraith orchid]

I think it'll still be hated because it's simply a melee, and melee are easier to use

[sudden pewter]

Surely you jest, Embark themselves said that’s something they don’t want. Or is that exclusively logic for the sledge

[wraith orchid]

harder to master at high levels because you need to reach the enemy first, but still easier at lower levels, because people don't just back away

[sudden pewter]

Embark consistency challenge any % (IMPOSSIBLE)

[compact tundra]

I think that's exclusively for like sledge and model, cause sword still L + QMs lights, and medium has (S + Qm + S + Qm) and (L + QM + L)

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-computer-smile-yellow-smile-surprised-gif-26981337

God to be a fly on the wall in Embark HQ.

[compact tundra]

Yo C4tter, do you think if we removed multi hit and lowered the lunges damage to 115 then clamp could go

[sudden pewter]

Spinning to ensure a hit would continue to exist, just not hit multiple targets

[sudden pewter]

But I’d be willing to compromise with this, yes 👍

[compact tundra]

But now medium can't be 2 lunged and heavy can't be 3 lunged

[sudden pewter]

If a Light gets 3 consecutive lunges on a Heavy that mf deserves to die

[compact tundra]

Due to the high mobility tho I can see why it's annoying to just have a light constantly lunging at you so I think removing the 3 lunge for a 3 lunge + qm or tracking dart would work well

[sudden pewter]

High Mobility + Size Diff

It’s why Heavy is such a poor matchup against DB, were thicc and tall so more pellets are prone to connect

[compact tundra]

Here's the damage numbers for the rework I'm looking at rn

M1 Swing = 73
M2 Lunge = 115
Reload Stab = 95

Tracking dart is 5dmg
QM is 40dmg

This not only can fix the spam issue, bring back combos, and allow more tracking dart combos which are just cool but can always be subbed for a QM instead if needed

I'll get the combo list made up sometime today

[tepid cobalt]

What are the best gadgets to use for light

[shell sonnet]

not sure if you want my 2 cents, but imo clamp needs to stay

[compact tundra]

Even with 115dmg lunge and no multi-hit

This lunge can't 2 shot mediums or 3 shot heavies

[shell sonnet]

i dont think any damage amount of damage can feel good with how unresponsive/desynced it felt

[compact tundra]

I don't really get that, that's a server issue not a weapon issue

[shell sonnet]

it still feels like shit to see an enemy physically be 3 meters away and still hit somehow

[unkempt moss]

Trying sword for the first time the lunge feels fine.

[shell sonnet]

and i dont really think helicopter spinning is all that healthy

[shell sonnet]

similar experience for me, tho i do notably play it somewhat rarely

[unkempt moss]

It just feels like dagger with less braincells

[serene glade]

why does the sword have a sex toy skin

[unkempt moss]

Give hammer the m2 lunge like this if lights don't want it.

[analog pewter]

someone asked yesterday what weapons we want added and i had to think about it

aside from akimbo flare guns i dunno....

[shell sonnet]

id be interested ina light gl, tho that could cause trouble

an arc gun that zaps another teammate near the target
but gimmic stuff like that could cause balancing issues

[agile cobalt]

Hey yo guys, I’m looking for an idea that’s good for offense and defense for a middle weight, so you guys got any ideas yeah?

[compact tundra]

I agree but I think without multi hit and making the weapon more combo reliant means those helicopter hits still need precision followups that will make it more tolerable

[shell sonnet]

just had an awesome match of poinbtbreak
wasted 40 coins on the last objective because all cover was gone
on the 3rd push we managed to brute force and held it
dopamine

wish discord supported 1m replays, i know that thing wont fit on here

[compact tundra]

This server is boosted, I send 2-3m replays regularly and I don't have nitro

[shell sonnet]

huh, maybe it would work

[compact tundra]

The replays or the sword?

[shell sonnet]

eh, gut feeling tells me no
and it still leaves the ghost hit issue (not what id usally call it, forgot the word)

[shell sonnet]

replays, not sword, sorry

[compact tundra]

The phantom hit tech or the server issues

[shell sonnet]

phantom hit sounds good
thx

[compact tundra]

I think that was patched out since it was an actual glitch people abused

[shell sonnet]

wait, wasnt that the double hit?

whoops 🙃

[compact tundra]

I think so, it was a "tech" that allowed you to swing your sword before you could act during end lag on a hit

I don't know exactly how it worked but I saw sir yellow jacket talk about it a few times

[shell sonnet]

yeah idk, never used it

i mean the shit where the light is already passed you, then 180°'s and hits you anyways
often while they look so far away it should never have hit

[compact tundra]

Honestly I don't mind making clamp 180° to stop 360's but keep general skilled combos still intact

Even with my new lunge 180° clamp is less of a limiting factor and more of a limit on Spin abuse

[unkempt moss]

Demat/Heal, Famas, Defib. Jump, Goo

[agile cobalt]

Cool, thanks

[shell sonnet]

i mean, better what we had before
but anything beyond 90°kinda rubs me the wrong way

[compact tundra]

I get that but for the rework to function being able to look at opponents during lunge for combo is necessary for the weapon to function

Cause now the weapon needs to hit precision combos with a new stab attack that requires being able to aim at the opponent

[analog pewter]

i want a weapon like the TK for medium, except you throw rocks. no headshots, one rock at a time, like 88 damage per rock.

rock throwers thriving

[shell sonnet]

you sure you didnt get some snow up your nose?

[analog pewter]

the snowball is really funny ngl like if i got that as a weapon I'd be giggling

[shell sonnet]

heard the brain is quite vulnerable to frostbite at this time of your /lh

idk kinda just sounds like a worse repeat that gets to skip reloading

[analog pewter]

yea the damage would probably be too low at 88. lets give it 110

I really like non-headshotting projectile weapons that reward direct hits. this game only has the CL-40 which rewards splash damage too much and the bow which relies on headshots

or the TK which is weird but I do like it

[unkempt moss]

Its crazy we'll get the rock throw weapon before a spartan laser because of how low effort it is.

Embark stays losing

[compact tundra]

@sudden pewter @unkempt moss @shell sonnet

On first read it might seem like a big nerf but in execution I think it could work well. But what do you guys think, this is the first real draft of the idea

Sword Reload Button Rework Idea

A few things to remember, QMs can animation cancel so they aren't effected by the end lag of a hit. Also all combos are listed in order by attack from highest damage to lowest damage. So remember in execution they'd be mixed up to be more effective, especially QM's since they can be thrown out during a hits end lag to lower kill time

The new stab attack uses your reload button and does 95 damage a hit. It has end lag comparable to the lunge attack but comes out quickly and has no charge up time

Remove multi hit

Buff Aim Clamp to 120°, this prevents 360's but basically lets you aim at anyone on your screen so you can hit combos more effectively.
If you were just stabbing the stab would have a fire rate of ~75rpm

L / Lunge 115dmg
S / Swing 73dmg
ST / Stab 95dmg
QM / Quick Melee 40dmg
TD / Tracking Dart 5dmg

Light

Combos
L + QM = 155
ST + S = 168
S + S + QM = 186
S + S + TD = 151

Medium

Combos
L + L + Qm = 270
L + ST + QM = 250
S + S + S + QM = 259
ST + ST + S = 263

Heavy

Combos
L + L + L + QM = 385
L + L + L + TD = 350
L + L + ST + QM = 365
S + S + S + S + S = 365
S + S + S + S + QM + QM = 372
ST + ST + ST + ST = 380

[shell sonnet]

its late and my brain isnt very active rn, so i dont think i can give proper feedback
ill just goob around, sorry

[compact tundra]

Fair enough

[unkempt moss]

Sure put that stab in.

Catter made me realize that its not really worth the effort to improve the weapon meaningfully because it'll just upset the current fan base. And zero change is perfect for embark, so that's the likely outcome. Sword/Spear can be left to the one tricks.

[compact tundra]

What would you want to do to sword, swap it's lunge with spears spin?

[muted condor]

Catter is basically the second coming of Christ if we’re being honest

[unkempt moss]

Id have to give it actual thought. Giving a third type of damage doesnt feel meaningful to me. As soon as someone starts listing a third damage number instead of adding engaging options I kind of just give up

Thats why the throw for spear feels meaningful. It allows you to engage with the game entirely different from before.

Maybe its because I play and love fighting games, but seeing someone try to add wonky button combinations in a shooter feels wrong.

Like the spear I would fundamentally change, but it would drive the other spear people away. So it may as well just stay the same.

[compact tundra]

It's how the weapon was, it's what I love playing and is a big reason why the finals stuck for me. The idea that I can run this button combo high mobility weapon is just so fun to me and I hate seeing the devs actively try to get rid of that. I don't really like adding a 3rd damage number but it at least fixes the issues and keeps what I love about the weapon. But idk at this point I just kinda feel defeated and like the joy I have for this game atp is to just sit back and just acknowledge that the fun is gone and just try to enjoy something else. Cause just to make sword work I have to turn it into an actual fighting game combo weapon cause reverting it isn't an option

[unkempt moss]

Maybe they'll revert it for you some day.

But for me, it's not worth even putting theories in to because the sword players wont be able to see it for anything other than not what it used to be.

[compact tundra]

Because to me it was a very fun and engaging weapon. Maybe not to you but to me sword was the most fun and engaging weapon I've ever used in a shooter. And it might could be that way again honestly with just a clamp buff. But I don't think anything like that is ever coming

[unkempt moss]

I just played it for the first time today. It seemed fine to me. Being able to dash beyblade didnt seem like it would be much more fun. Its just not that engaging of a weapon is how I see it.

[stoic garden]

IT USED TO BE BELIEVE ME!!!!
-living beyblade

[analog pewter]

spear throw just erodes the identity of the weapon and threatens to disbalance its melee role. the counter to melee weapons is typically to disengage and fight outside their range when possible, melee weapons are meant to hunker down and control their space.

when you add throw to spear, suddenly the longest-reaching melee in the game (that is, the one that can control the most space) suddenly has a much larger threat bubble and can punish attempts to counter it by creating distance. Sure it creates a better power fantasy for the spear user but I imagine that would feel pretty awful to play against.

Imagine the inverse, adding a powerful melee attack string to a weapon that has a strong but slow ranged attack already; the BFR for instance. You've fundamentally undermined its main counter (close-up harassment) and turned it into a one-size-fits-all solution

any attempt to balance the spear by turning it into a non-melee weapon is a fundamentally unserious concept

there is a reason that quick melee is quite bad at dealing damage on its own.

[stoic garden]

just wait until they remove quick melee because melee weapons abused it in "unintended" ways

[analog pewter]

itd be funny if they made it so melee weapons dont have access to quick melee but I think that would be stupid lmao

[stoic garden]

real...

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/lotta-words-wow-thats-a-lot-of-words-not-reading-that-not-reading-wow-gif-26878516

Gimme another hour or so to form actual feedback

[unkempt moss]

What exactly is wrong with the game being unserious?

I also dont see having a hybrid melee weapon as unserious. Going with the most extreme answer of giving the BFR a good melee isnt near the same as a chronic underperformer.

If you would have said the MGL or something then it would probably be a serious discussion as the weapon would actually be positively impacted by a good melee.

Even if its not the right answer at least give a decent good faith argument.

[analog pewter]

balancing decisions should be made as much if not more from the perspective of the player fighting against something than the perspective of the player using it. even in an unserious game, you should adhere to this

[analog pewter]

the mgl is a different beast entirely because it's just a dysfunctional weapon. but giving it a strong melee combo to offset all its other weaknesses would turn it into a very messy weapon that would have extremely polarizing performance in a mishmash of situations. it's the same principle we don't have secondary weapons

calling my argument bad faith is incredibly silly and I think you have a bit of a complex

[shell sonnet]

[me, who wants to pick up pots and chairs to hit people with, as buffed quick melee] 🥲

[unkempt moss]

In a strictly competitive game i might agree with this, but the finals is pretty unserious.

I'd say that in a game like this the user experience comes first and then its interactions with other things. A game where buildings randomly explode due to unseen interactions with goo and geometry collision is a hard sell on super serious.

[olive forum]

Has anyone mentioned making thermal vision into a thermal drone?? It could be great for getting info but at the cost of one light player sitting still and not able to engage in combat. The deploy and ending animation could be long to offset ambush capabilities. This imo would be a great addition to the game and make thermal vision balanced

[analog pewter]

even team fortress 2 adheres to this and it is a far less serious game than the finals. the sandman in the past was a nightmare to play against, even though it was never necessarily scout's best melee option. I don't like how they nerfed it and turned it into useless trash, but it is still better for the game the way it is now than it was when it stunned players. They made that decision explicitly because playing against the sandman felt worse than using it felt good

[unkempt moss]

My point with the MGL is that taking two underperformers and working from that foundation rather than jumping immediately to one of the biggest points of contention on balance.

[shell sonnet]

uuuuuuuuuuh
what about charge n slam?

[analog pewter]

my point is that all PvP games should focus on the target's experience as much as if not more than the user's.

[analog pewter]

specializations are designed to cover for weaknesses or emphasize strengths. C&S is the premier spec for covering weaknesses, while winch claw tends to emphasize strengths.

[chilly granite]

I also said I try stuff that feels op against me to check how it feels from the other perspective and try to learn its weaknesses

also light's survival being predicated on effective use of evasive dash makes 1) two specs just a wrong choice ocmpared to evasive dash, and 2) makes the skill floor of the most popular class higher, which then leads to more complaints and less fun gameplay

[shell sonnet]

i dont have enough brain cells to properly participate rn
saw some words and thought i might point this out

[analog pewter]

you have to sacrifice other specs to have close-range panic damage with the MGL. an MGL user might prefer to use the mesh shield or even goo gun, but C&S is desirable for its ability to cover its close range weakness

same reason the sledge likes winch or goo gun, winch can force close range against a single target while goo gun can 1. trap players while the sledge user approaches or 2. create a bunker where players have to enter a close range engagement to take out the sledge user. without these two it has limited options to close space and strike

spear likes C&S or winch because C&S covers its inability to destroy structures like sledge can, letting it breach or escape in a pinch while closing distance faster than sprinting. Winch for the same reason as sledge

thats how i see it anyways, i dont use all of these weapons too much other than sledge. used to use spear but found sledge to just feel more reliable and functional

[serene glade]

brother just stop saying OP

[unkempt moss]

Right now the game focuses almost solely on the target experience. Which is why the game is so stale. Things like break points are an example of this. Which it seems like assumes all guns operate within a vacuum.

[chilly granite]

^^

[unkempt moss]

Taking a weapon and giving it some sort of unique or novel approach isnt going to break the game. And it also seems like you're assuming that taking an approach of novelty is mutually exclusive from balancing around the targets perceived interactions.

[chilly granite]

wait i think your take is bad and I don't agree with it

[serene glade]

The don't read more than 3 words before speaking tech

[unkempt moss]

You can do both and still make both sides happy. We have plenty of balancing around the target experience going on. Im just saying turn the dial up on the user experience by adding some novelty to weapons.

[unkempt moss]

Me neither.

[chilly granite]

but I don't get what you mean by what you wrote

oh yeah no I agree with your take but your opinion is wrong

like heavy weapons are mostly too strong when accounting for the power of rpg too imho

[serene glade]

Lmao

[chilly granite]

becuase their breakpoints are balanced around just using the gun, but a lot of heavies use rpg to initiate fights

you can disagree with me but you understand what I'm trying to say ye?

[unkempt moss]

I dont know. It seems like you agree with me in that balancing in a vacuum is bad.

[chilly granite]

like RPG + bfr is a combo that medium with cb doesn't have access to that can potentially oneshot a light

[eager wasp]

guns balancing around specs or gadgets isnt peak

[chilly granite]

yeah for sure, embark does a lot of "stats based balancing" which I think is why a lot of balancing decisions they make are just weird

[chilly granite]

tbh I'd rather see rpg seriously nerfed player damage and a much bigger explision radius and be more of a util destruction gadget

[unkempt moss]

Right. I would say it far favors the target by balancing that way. It feels like absolute shit to headshot someone and have them get away with 2hp.

[chilly granite]

more like thermal bore

[chilly granite]

which the bow chronicly suffers from

[unkempt moss]

When I see people making combos mixing all kinds of things on sword then I know for certain the user side of that interaction is under represented.

[chilly granite]

I mean, I think that's more caused by light having too little hp relative to medium, so they have to give weapons stupid numbers against meidum/heavy to stop them being opressive to lights

like if you give light 10hp, and then rebalance all weapons to have same ttk against lights, then you just get less disappointing/feelsbad breakpoints against medium and heavy

literally not changing the light experience at all for context

[unkempt moss]

The spear is never getting a throw. But a staunch opposition to it is equally unhealthy if not more imo

[chilly granite]

medium has 66% more hp vs light and then heavy has 40% more than medium, which just makes the numbers annoying to work with, because something that does decent damage to medium will do too much damage to heavy and light

cuz heavys hitbox is way more than 40% bigger than mediums by area

and mediums is less than 66% by area (this is vibes based not tested)

[analog pewter]

solution: make medium like 10% larger

[chilly granite]

I'm down

basically every weapon has a breakpoint that griefs a class

[shell sonnet]

just to make sure i understand correctly

winch would be the opposite, correct?
making sure the user has fun, while largely relegating the victims experience

[chilly granite]

winch is already taht

[analog pewter]

my biggest problem with heavy when i play light is that since they're taller than me and their head is so small any t ime i try and headshot them I feel like I'm clipping their chest or shoulders instead and cant even get at their head >:\

headshots in general feel stupid, I will be at low ground with deagles shooting up at a guy who I swear I can only see his head and somehow I ONLY get bodyshots

[chilly granite]

the inverse also true

they can see me behind low awlls because they so tall

and headshot me ez

[analog pewter]

my skill issue take based purely on vibes is that headshots in this game are in general too hard and it's part of why the winch is so good (sets up a free headshot)

maybe not against light tho i think they should be as hard as-is to headshot. like, they suffer enough as is

[chilly granite]

big agree

[analog pewter]

i would unironically increase the size of the head hitbox for medium and heavy by like 10-15%

[chilly granite]

also why the bow is considered to be good at all, beacuse the giant hitbox of the arrow compensates, if you watch hight skilled/pro bow players, they're always shooting from above which makes the head the first collision

[analog pewter]

i have a hard time aiming with the bow from above, I'd rather be on-level, but that's when it never headshots 😭

[chilly granite]

which gives free ehadshots since the arrow's hitbox is twice as wide as light's head

[shell sonnet]

turn it into tf2, remove all headshots, balance on body shots :troll;

[chilly granite]

also, I think that medium and heavy should be the same height

[analog pewter]

you say this jokingly but I do think that this game has a few too many headshot-dependent weapons for how fast paced and erratic and chaotic it can be

[chilly granite]

yes^^^

[analog pewter]

good to have some though. ive been warming up to the deagles (though i still want better first-shot accuracy)

[shell sonnet]

i do see the reasonable side
sadly its abit late for drastic changes like that

[chilly granite]

head hitbox should be the same size as axoltyl head so that u cant grief headshot aimers with that bullshit skin

[analog pewter]

yeah i just hope future weapons they add are less headshot-dependent or dont get headshots at all. like, I'd love more bodyshot-only weapons

the p90 was a great add bc it rewards consistency way more than precision. the headshot damage is solid but just being able to hit every bodyshot is almost always preferable to hitting like 60% of your shots but half of those are headshots

or idk i didnt do the math maybe that is better LOL

i want a slow (like TK speed) projectile weapon that only does bodyshots and has big damage. I still don't really know what that should be

[chilly granite]

66% for 1.5x hs mutli (same for bow)

[shell sonnet]

1-handed gl on light
(0 splash unless you hit direct, loch n' load style)

[analog pewter]

see im a demo main in tf2, specifically with the GL and tide turner, and no other game respects GLs as precision weapons the way tf2 does. landing direct pipes is my joy and I want a weapon that does that in this game as satisfyingly as in tf2

[shell sonnet]

tf2 is a masterpiece

[chilly granite]

honestly i don't think the cl40 should impact on surfaces only on players, but taht's jsut a tf2 opinion

[unkempt moss]

Right. Winch would be an example of forsaking the targets agency for player agency. Which is what i would assume is the biggest problem with it. Goolocking would be an example of that which is why I really think it'll be removed at some point. They've tried in the past

[shell sonnet]

could be done, but needs proper balancing
i dont want it to end up in the gutter again

[chilly granite]

for sure

rate of fire should be way faster as a minimum

[analog pewter]

it'd also give better feedback to the user, rn its hard to tell at a glance if you actually landed a direct hit or just hit below their feet, which does make a difference for certain breakpoints iirc

give me CL-40 with shitty indirects but one more round in the tube and slightly faster firing

[shell sonnet]

one time i accidentally used coffee shot powder, for what should have been, by amount of powder used, a decently strong normal coffee
i dont think ill ever reach the high of dominating a lobby with post nerf, pre S4 buff again

[analog pewter]

try adhd meds

[shell sonnet]

i might need to actually

[chilly granite]

40 gap @ 100fov is about the lead distance for the cl40

on sprinting meidums

[analog pewter]

they also just need to fucking fix projectile hitreg because I KNOW it's wacked out. I've seen goo globs for example stop for multiple frames on my target, and then just clip through past them and hit the ground behind them

its so insane that we cant see our own ping, it would help a lot to know how much i need to accommodate when leading shots

[chilly granite]

the bow hitreg is good for me

I can tell reliably if it'll hit based on my windage crosshair

[serene glade]

the servers need to be fixed for projectile weapons to have any sort of serious look at

[chilly granite]

tbh the biggets thing they need to change is that if you queue a casual mode, even as a party, teams should be balanced on a hidden mmr

if 5 rubies queue together they should be on opposite teams so the lobby isn't instantly ruined

I don't care, I enjoy the challenge, but a lot of my weaker willed friends just quit for the evening if they get 5 rubies in the enemy team in tdm

hahaha

[analog pewter]

i once got put in a PB match against literally a 5 stack of NTMR players including gremlin

[chilly granite]

that must've been traumatic

[analog pewter]

i killed gremlin once so I get to say I killed the TGM champion

[chilly granite]

hahah, back in csgo I played in an esea event against kioshima and backstabbed him with my stattrak knife, this was when he was at his peak too

[analog pewter]

once you realize you're against the literal best of the best players in the world you stop caring about dying or losing and take little victories
and it becomes a lot more fun even tho you're getting washed

[chilly granite]

I was bad too, idk why I was paying for esea when I was gold nova

[chilly granite]

I've tried to teach my friends this but they just give up against rubies

it's like, sure you didn't kill him this time, but you got him to half; if you and a buddy do that together, that's him dead!

[analog pewter]

i think part of it is like you dont see that they're ruby unless you're in ranked right?
if players are in ruby or have been in ruby in recent seasons I think it should show on the scoreboard regardless. could really take the edge off to know for sure "oh these guys are REAL soldiers"

[chilly granite]

nah u see the badges on their profiles in tdm

they have to choose to put it there, but a lot do

[analog pewter]

wait when do you see enemy players' profiles i actually forgot

[chilly granite]

when u ded to them

[analog pewter]

ohhhh right
yeah it'd still be better to put it on the scoreboard/pregame

[chilly granite]

for sure

[analog pewter]

also becomes a more valuable flex

[chilly granite]

but i don't think the game has a hidden mmr for teambalance, and it's a must

like my tdms are so unbalanced constantly, I'm a tdm main lol

rank 47 tdm player right here

bow feels a lot better in tdm because everyone plays light and bow is best against light hahahahh

[analog pewter]

i almost exclusively play H2H and PB which is awful for my wt point gain

[chilly granite]

I'm already emerald 🙂

my first wt emerald

oh I can post pictures now how lovely

so this is the arrow hitbox as seen at 10meters

as you can see my croshair is firmly missing by about one lights head, this will hit consistently

so the arrow is about two lights heads wide

that is a very fat arrow and leads to stuff like this

foor whoever said that collisions with phyics objects could use a smaller hitbox than the players, that's an appauling idea beacuse you could abuse that to headshot people behind low walls

and stuff like this, when you're shooting from a cover from a high position

lre

that's my aim point to cause this; so even aiming at a crouching light from cover will cause this

[analog pewter]

the change i want to sledge is to allow you to hold an M2 above your head and swing it down on release
i want to exercise my inner serious sam

[blazing hearth]

Oh a fun idea for a gadget just came to me, a choice for heavies that sets your bullets on fire, but will end on a reload/or if enough time passes. It won't set fire to the ground, just setting opponents alight

[chilly granite]

good take

make fire % based damage so heavies get bullied by fire and I"m ok wiht that

[analog pewter]

i think gas should be % based and fire should be anti-heal

[chilly granite]

gas is already stronger than fire and I think fire makes more sense to be % based anyway

make gas anti heal so people can't heal beam steal

[blazing hearth]

Im with bow user, gas is already better

[chilly granite]

I'm really enjoying my new gadget combo, I'm actually winning in ranked now, even with grapple

[blazing hearth]

ohhh yeah Im a medium and I would HATE to go up against that (good thing)

[chilly granite]

I just had, two arrows, that woould've both killed a heavy, get soaked by props

[unkempt moss]

Gas being percentage base would help the stall potential. Especially if you buffed fire ro anti heal, which would up its usage and counter gas.

[chilly granite]

gas already better stall becuase bigg raidus, fire small radius needs more damage to make it worth throwing

fire damage being % based helps all sources of fire, gas sources generally odn't need much help anyway

but fire really needed to be buffed vs goo, not explosives, feel like fire meant to be goo counter not explovies

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/cute-cute-cat-cat-dance-dance-danse-gif-2828881158173136264

[chilly granite]

bruh i had the easiest fight of the world but i choked and missed liek 4 arrows

[blazing hearth]

with ur accuracy on the keyboard that's almost expected 😭

[chilly granite]

I can type well if I care to but I don't bother becasue it's not worth the effort

also I'm trying to type while I"m dead in ranked/afk waiting for enemies

[blazing hearth]

Yeah and ur def WAY better than me I shouldn't be saying nuthin XD

[chilly granite]

idk if that's true i play

bruh we got third place because my medium unlocked the vault for the enemy team

[blazing hearth]

team of 2 at that point

[chilly granite]

he'd already lost us the fight over the doubled first cashout because he held defibs in his hand to try to defib me (the light) for 3 hours instead of fighting 2v2 against low hp enemy

I even told them they were half hp and he still held defibs in his hand

my heavy was goated so probably a duo?

but I was playing too aggro to be sure

I really wissh there were weapon level leaderboards idk if I'm gonna be first bow lvl 13 or not

probaobly not thoguh tbh, i got 12 after this season started

[shell sonnet]

10 minute auto-ban for missing a single letter on the word chunk 🔥

[shell sonnet]

Fire has dot, that wouldnt mesh well with % based imo (since the large chunk of direct damage could quickly be removed by stepping out)

Meanwhile it looks very tempting/fitting to make that dot the anti-heal
Since 1 hit ensures at least some time of reduced healing

[chilly granite]

that's a good take

if that's the case then pyro would need numbers buffs

[shell sonnet]

?

[chilly granite]

pyro just doesn't do enough damage relative to gas rn, and that'd still be true even with anti heal

only become more true if gas was % based

I love using bow on kyoto against arns and cbs that hit me from 5km

[shell sonnet]

Damage wouldnt be the point
It does more

Utility
Anti-heal
Regen delay
Still area denial (just lower damage)

• setting off traps and hitting through walls/floors
  Potential quick finisher as well

[chilly granite]

already does half o those except anti heal and nobody uses it outside tdm, where it's highly effective as a finisher

area denial on pyro too weak, needs more aoe at least

i'm getting inactivity warning for waiting for enemies on casthout hahahaha

[shell sonnet]

Oh, i thought this was in relation to gas, not just on its own need for buffs

[shell sonnet]

Dont get yourself booted mate

Discord yapping can wait

[chilly granite]

I mean, that is in part in relation to gas, if you need something that does most of those, gas does most better

I just wiggle and wait for enemies hahah, we got the cashout nice and easy

[shell sonnet]

No utility
No (if implimented) anti heal
No regen delay (unless you count the slightly higher time to get out)
Leaves traps

Does hit through walls, but hars to set it up to damage through floors from below

Countered by pyro

I dont really see your point with that one

Gas only does damage and area denial

Pyro has way more uses

[chilly granite]

I kinda get you but when you're choosing a slot, it's hard to give it to pyro over gas

[shell sonnet]

Not really
To me at least

[chilly granite]

if they're even in the conversation, which is already hard for light at least

maybe this is my lightness leaking

[shell sonnet]

Could be
But i dont see them thaaat often either

Probably related to medium having 2 must have slots
And heavy having 1 (but pretty much 2)

[chilly granite]

lmao my teammate's mad i cashed the vualt instead of dying with him

and light having 2 (arguably 3)

[blazing hearth]

If my teamate is that guy than yes, I prefer money that his in game life

[shell sonnet]

Idk if its the drowsiness talking, but i actually kind of feel the most flexible on light

Like, i already dont use meta that often

But i feel less obligated to do so on light than medium and heavy

[analog pewter]

maybe i do like cashout. I just queued for cashout with random fills and we fucking DOMMED

[shell sonnet]

Like, im not even sure whats light gadget meta outside of gateway

H+ infuser?

[analog pewter]

started with deagles and ended with minigun bc we were h2h into a 2 heavy comp. minigun was so much better for that

[chilly granite]

light has the most power, and most choices, of op gadgets, which means that light has the hardest time chosing flashes/gas/fire

imho

[serene glade]

[chilly granite]

like, nullifier, glitch, h+, gateway, are all so powerful they can be meta defining for your team's playstyle

I feel like if you're not taking at least one of the four you're 100% throwing

if you have a good heavy player and skip h+ and glitch, you're throwing

[shell sonnet]

Ive seen people call nullifier gutted

Its still really good for steal denials
(+free box cheese)

[chilly granite]

if you're using matter, sr84, or bow, and don't use the nulli, you're griefing for sure

[shell sonnet]

...i just had a stupid fucking idea

Loading up the practise range

[chilly granite]

if I didn't paly solo queue with unbelievbly sus teammates I'd feel like I'm griefing to take flash over h+

and I litearlly can't skip glitch because I need it to land nulli on a heavy stealing lmao

so all three of my slots are spoken for if I had a good team

and if I skipped H+, then the right answer is probably thermal bore, not pyro or flash lol

I take flash because i enjoy it, not because it's the best option

like, sonar, thermal bore, vanish bomb, gateway, are all such good gadgets that med/heavy would kill for

maybe thermal bore is a hot take but I love that shit

[shell sonnet]

couldve sworn there were throwable boxes in the shooting range...

[chilly granite]

there's chairs

[shell sonnet]

no, i need the hanging containers

[chilly granite]

I can join u for a lobby if you want

[shell sonnet]

nah, i think qc tutorial has them

thx for offering

(also, ive heard you need at least like 3-4 people)

[chilly granite]

only two for a lobyy

I do 1v1 vs my friends sometimes and to test stuff

[shell sonnet]

ok, qc tutorial has them

idea has become even stupider

[chilly granite]

but yeah, light's class specific gadgets are pretty mcuh all so good you don't want to skip them, so justifying a generic gadget is really, really hard imho

sonar, thermal bore, vanish, breach, glitch, nulli, gateway, h+, it's hard to choose between them let alone trying to pick which ones to give up for a damn pyro nade

back before I started using the bow and I was a sr84 main, I did use pyro for finishing kills at ditsance and clearing gas from cashouts, but I also was only playing quick cash and tdm

not tdm, bank it

grapple hook kyoto souds good in theory until you get beamed by arns half way across the map for daring to be on their screen

[shell sonnet]

why go through a gateway to defend and risk your life
just send them a nuke

imagine doing this with pyro barrels

(i tried attaching breach charges on the container after this, didnt make it to the other side, maybe i did it wrong/didnt line it up correctly)

knock yourself out

actually, im stupid

just place the gateway on the ground below

[chilly granite]

gateway is just, broken

i think it desrves recon senses treatment

non-push to talk voice in a multiplayer game is a sin

I dont wanna hear the shitty music my heavy is busy vibing to

[shell sonnet]

breach charges are probably overkill
didnt even trigger it, and they all went off

this could probably wipe a team
if they only expect a light to jump through, they might think they can tank it/kill them

low and behold, annihilation

probably does need breach to blow up if its pyro barrels

[chilly granite]

gateway also sucks to use

they should make the first gatway spawn where you stand, and the second spawn on the deontation, that'd be a good nerf

[shell sonnet]

completely ruins this tech
trying to use it on a cashout, etc.

[chilly granite]

that's the objective

gateway is way too good

[iron zenith]

SAY IT LOUDERRRRR

[chilly granite]

man i just lost this ranked game because the other light stepped on mines 3 times

[shell sonnet]

is this gonna change taht tho?
if anything you make rollouts more convenient

they could do it like mediums mobility, and just nerf recharge

[chilly granite]

teammates at 3 am bro

[chilly granite]

I mean, I think a change that makes it more convient to use, while nerfing the cheeseiest aspects of it, is good

[shell sonnet]

ah, right
the 50 meter skip

[chilly granite]

the first gate spawning infront of the thrower means that at a minimum, line of sight is needed to the second gateway

which nerfs a lot of the most awful parts for playing against gateway

[shell sonnet]

at that point, just drastically nerf link distance

same effect, but keeps this strat alive

[chilly granite]

no, because grapple exists

[shell sonnet]

...how does that change it?

[chilly granite]

gateway isn't limited on link distance, its just throw distance, if you grapple further than you can still throw it

I'm pretty sure I'm right but I don't use gateway because I don't enjoy it

oh I'm wrong, sorry

[blazing hearth]

What if the time you have between the throws is limited? I dont use it like ever, and I could be just wrong, and maybe you cant use abilities while holding one of the gates

[chilly granite]

I mean, corners still grief gateway

[shell sonnet]

the grapple itself wont do anything, because its based on where you are to it iirc

[chilly granite]

or rather, current gateway, even with a link distance of 10m, can be a pain to play against because corners exist

[chilly granite]

ye you're right, I was wrong

[blazing hearth]

just remove ALL corners 🤷‍♂️ have everything be a circle XD

[chilly granite]

ah I see why I thoguht I was wrong; the link distance is the maximum distance the player can be when THROWING the second gateway

so you get link distance + max throw distance as usable distance

[shell sonnet]

all good mate

[chilly granite]

I mean, link distance should be removed anyway because that's a total grief to anyone who doesn't spend their life reading wikis

That explains why my gateways kept randomly disappeaing when I tried using it

I stand by my opinino that the gateway should just spawn the first gate where you stand, the current gateway mechancis are obscenely complex with no in game explainantion

and require a bunch of knowledge of random numbers/rules

[blazing hearth]

Yeah thats kinda the only thing that i think makes sense too

[chilly granite]

there's no visual queue for the lifetime of the first gateway you throw

the indicator that shows that it's about to disappear because of distance is just the marker for it's location, which is pretty subtle if you're not looking for it, FADING OUT lmao, becomign harder to see

and if you're grappling it'll break before you have time to notice that at all

ugh gateway is ass

tbh gateway should be a medium gadget not light, and heavy should get zip

like, yeah, let's make grapple hook even more redundant for light players

give them a better grapple hook on a shorter cooldown that their teammates can use, and they can throw bombs through

welp now that i understand how gateway works looks like i'm obligated to use it because holy shit, that is unbelievably op

RIP flashbangs you were loved

ehh I don't care I'd rather lose games than use gateway

I want gateway nerfed just so I don't have to feel like I'm griefing for not using it

[chilly granite]

but light losing gateway would help grapple vs evasive dash feel like an actaul choice instead of one just being correct

[unkempt moss]

If you look at it that way then you can run dash and have the other specs in their kit as well. Kinda crazy.

[chilly granite]

yeah, and that's ignoring that dash is the best spec even without invis bomb and gateway

evasive dash having a shorter cooldown than grapple, and getting 3 charges on top of that, is insane

evasive dash would still be meta over grapple with 1 charge on 8s cd (hot take)

tbh if dash was 1 charge and invis bomb didn't exist, then invis would probably be meta

but dash with 8s cd would still be meta for sure

I'm pretty sure dash with 15s cd would still be meta and light would just be less annoying to play against

make gateway light's 4th spec

and make the invis spec the invis bomb

I don't think gadgets should double dip on specs, espeically not on the same class

[unkempt moss]

I think the current consensus is only dash is viable on light. The other two are so weak they shouldnt even be there.

[chilly granite]

invis you can make an argument for if you're roof sitting

lh1/v9s invis roof sitting is prety viable

[unkempt moss]

Thats just what I've seen other people say.

[analog pewter]

they should let you slide while spinning with the spear

youd get so much sick spear tech with that

[chilly granite]

grapple is a death sentence so at least invis is better than that

like, any compotent player will extremely easily track a grappling player, and it's cooldown is long and you have to aim it with your mouse, so you're runing your chances in a fight to use it

and it's really easy to accidentally grief a grapple by missing it, or by hitting the wrong thing, and I"m not talking skill issue, I'm talking about like, a random falling wall blocking the shot

because if anything screws up a grapple, again, you're basically instantly dead

light's hp/dps is balanced around evasive dash and you extremely feel that when you play grapple

evasive dash is basically a free 200hp in a fihgt against a good player, let alone a bad player (a free +50hp)

even someone crazy skilled will miss a couple akm or fcar bullets on a dashing light

grapple requires you to stop shooting to use it because you have to point your mouse

so it's a free -50hp, and that assumes you're insanely fast at aiming grapple and then re-aiming at the enemy

most of the time it's a free -150hp lol

[unkempt moss]

yeah

for sure

[chilly granite]

I've asked embark to give dash aim assist for mnk evasive dash players lol

pc plebs only get 8 directions to choose from, which makes precise, situational dashes impossible

especially while aiming

they shuold clamp console players to 8 directions too or give mnk dashers aim assist for dash, that's probably my spiciest take

if I dash towards a building I want to go in the damn window not bounce off the wall

[unkempt moss]

true lol

[chilly granite]

there is some % of skill issue here to be sure, but some dash stuff is impossible to do as well as a console player no matter how skilled you are

sword is probably the biggest benefitter

my aim has been ass today , like I'm missing easy shots

i just died to a level 8 twice

and he was not a smurf

i clutched up and we won the pb but I did not play well lmao

[unkempt moss]

nice

[chilly granite]

I had like 1 kill before the last wave

ended with 7 lmao, but those 6 mattered

I'm still mad I died to the ruby player after I put him on 1hp with two nice arrows

he ran out of bullets and i chased for the quickmelee but my dashes weren't accurate enough (mnk diff)

[unkempt moss]

damn

[chilly granite]

but my teammate got him and with him dead, his team fell apart

a meidum jsut threw a mine at me in my tdm and i didn't see it and just got exploded

nah I litearlly don't give a shit how good gateway is I just don't nejoy it

glitch and bow feel so anti-synergetic because you don't have time to draw bow before glitch lands and oyu don't want to miss out on dpssing time

bruh idk how I missed my nullifier on that flamethrower player

there are way too many mediums and heavies in my tdm

aqlso nullifiers gadget xp gain is so slow

50xp for something that can only hit one dude and takes forver to recharge

man losing a fight to a heavy just because I slightly under cooked an arrow so I 4shot him instead of 3 shotting him meanwhile he's mised 38 bullets of a lewis mag on me and still i die

also, three shotting a light wiht partially drawn bow should not be possible, like that sucks, its already hard to land undrawn shots, it shouldn't also have a terrible ttk

(1.65s if you don't draw at all, longer with partial draw that isn't enough to make it a twoshot)

thb I need to get better at qick melee combos but also it's awful lol

I wanna post some clips but i dont want all the heavy mains flaming my util usage

I think i landed like 3 flashes that whole tdm and like 2 glitch grenades hahaha

I keep griefing my nullifier shots because I'm leading it like the bow lmao

I had changed my crosshair and when I changed it I accidentally messed up the lead distance for the bow

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif