💣┇weapons-gadgets

[royal pier]

CL-40 stands for Crutched Loser (who will live to be a) 40 (year old virgin)

Light meta is basically w/e you want cause they have no bad weapons.

Yes, you can make sword work. Use tracking dart to open.

[strong brook]

Best light weapon that isn't DB or automatics?

[spark igloo]

93r

[spark igloo]

there's at least 2 but go off ig

[spark igloo]

matter

[strong brook]

93r unironically slaps

[royal pier]

Dagger is good when the server cooperates and they don't break melee as a whole.

[arctic scarab]

Really good as well after s7's mag buff

Light class has the most amount of consistently good weapons compared to any other class

[spark igloo]

anyone who knows how to fight the weapon will just never die to it

[royal pier]

You can set your ass against a curved, indestructible wall, and you can still get backstabbed. Harder, but possible

[arctic scarab]

Yeah just spin around to not let them hit you from the back lol

[spark igloo]

just look at them and slide in a random direction every time they get near you or be even remotely close to a wall/corner

[royal pier]

Also, come on, a good dagger waits until you, you know, aren't looking.

The "will never die to" line is silly when it comes to any weapon.

[spark igloo]

a good player has enough game sense to recognize that a dagger is missing from a team fight

or can hear the noise a dagger makes every time it charges LOL

[royal pier]

Yeah and they never, ever, have to face and fight another enemy.

[spark igloo]

every fight until the dagger shows up is a 2v3

and this isnt factoring the entire light class being a dagger hard counter by just existing

[royal pier]

And is instantly a 3v2 of they get the pick.

[spark igloo]

I think I've established that it's pretty easy to not let this happen if you know a dagger is in play

I think the only time I die to dagger is when I ego one or dont know one is in the lobby

[royal pier]

This is just nonsense.

No player is perfect.

Sound is bad.

[spark igloo]

dagger takes almost a second long to charge, makes a noise when you charge it, moves you slower than a heavy when charged, and dashing makes a sound

the only time a dagger is truly sneaking up on you is if they drop from somewhere

[royal pier]

You can perfectly trace the dagger but desync give them the kill.

[spark igloo]

so slide back in a random direction and you dont need to track them at all

unless they can perfectly predict the direction you will slide in you'll be fine

[royal pier]

I play with Ruri, and I'm not gonna drag them into this, but they would concur that sometime the dagger is just kinda unstoppable.

Just as many times where the server fucks you, but that's all melee.

[spark igloo]

I play with Kael and she has to swap to v9s anytime a team knows how to fight the weapon if she wants to provide any value

I also spent like 4 seasons playing the weapon

Ruri is healingbeamftw right?

[royal pier]

Cool and I have clips of me doing what you said to do and still dying.

But I'm in bed now.

[spark igloo]

then you're just doing it wrong ig, whether it be not pre turning well or sliding at the wrong time

[royal pier]

I've been backstabbed in Spear spin while whipping the camera around at random.

[spark igloo]

or it's one of the outlier cases were the servers are just completely awful

[royal pier]

Which is literally like 80% of the time.

[spark igloo]

but if youre doing it right this is very rare, I've only gotten "face stabbed" a handful of times and even still I can usually pin it on not sliding or turning at the wrong itme

[royal pier]

It's not face stabs, it's the game favoring what they see over what you see.

[spark igloo]

Im just calling it face stabs because thats what people call it

[royal pier]

They see back, game gives back, even if you're looking. Then other times, it does the opposite.

[spark igloo]

thats not even how the weapon works LOL

dagger is client sided 100% of the time for the user

[royal pier]

I didn't clip it but I got backstabbed by someone I fuckin winched.

[spark igloo]

thats just a shitty outlier case

[royal pier]

Connects, hitmarker, I'm dead.

[spark igloo]

to me thats no different than standing on breaking goo and getting flung into a room and dying

[royal pier]

But it goes against your "they'll never die" line.

Because you can be perfect and still get netcode'd

[spark igloo]

it sounds like you winched them while they were dashing no?

[royal pier]

Saw them coming, winched right before they reached me, but on their end they had already hit.

[spark igloo]

shoulda just preturned and slid backwards man idk

[royal pier]

Just admit your statement is wrong

[spark igloo]

I said there were outlier cases did I not

but those are very rare if youre doing it right

[royal pier]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-sith-gif-7488176

[spark igloo]

so true king

[royal pier]

Your statement was absolute.

[royal pier]

Way later.

[spark igloo]

it was a lot earlier than whatever this was

I was correcting myself because there are definitely cases like that

[royal pier]

I had to drag it out kicking and screaming.

[spark igloo]

smth like that

anyways Im going to keep sliding backwards and preturning and never get backstabbed like I've been doing since s1

[royal pier]

Not like anyone daggers atm because melee is broken.

But the sound thing ignored that weapons like minigun, MGL32, and Flamethrower are loud enough to cover up the dash sound.

[spark igloo]

I dont even go off the sound I usually just know when one will be coming up behind me

if they arent in a teamfight you know they will have to show up soon or they are providing negative value

[stoic garden]

bird senses

[royal pier]

Also, steal denial. Still good at that if the server isn't fucked.

[spark igloo]

dagger is blocked by dome now

[royal pier]

All melee is

[spark igloo]

and because multihit got removed you can just stack your team on the person stealing and block backstabs

[spark igloo]

well ofc but its pretty relevant for steal denial

[royal pier]

I can't even tell if Embark did this shit on purpose

[spark igloo]

probably it was a stupid change tho

[royal pier]

Goo also blocks melee for the most part, but not quick melee.

[spark igloo]

pretty sure it's multihit based

[royal pier]

https://tenor.com/view/genius-excited-beard-bear-gif-4242197970653209363

[spark igloo]

qm has multihit still

I'd like a serversided dagger like spy if embark could allow for server sided hitreg without making it hell for the dagger player

[royal pier]

How do they fuck up on a Ubisoft level so often?

[spark igloo]

running theory is lack of communication between devs and departments

[royal pier]

Thought Siege was bad.

[spark igloo]

you could unironically giga buff a server sided dagger and it would be significantly stronger and healthier than what we have now

[royal pier]

Istg the balance team has two separate offices that hate each other.

[spark igloo]

I personally think you could giga buff current dagger but ik some people still struggle fighting it in it's current state so that seems unlikely and is probably unhealthy

[royal pier]

How do you make the XP-54 just blatantly better at mid range in the same patch you add a mid range AR?

[spark igloo]

my favourite one is adding gimmicks like fire to cerberus and fast reload to arn while making their base stats better than other equivalent weapons not including said gimmicks

[royal pier]

Or buff the Cerberus to be better than peak 1887 in the patch you nerf the 1887.

Do they not, like, look at all the changes collectively?

[spark igloo]

I wouldnt say it was better than 1887 but it was significantly easier to use

[royal pier]

It could one shot light

[stoic garden]

when they nerfed xp to basically be marginally better ttk arn i was like "what does this solve lol"

[spark igloo]

at the range it one shot light was pretty much the same as u the one u could model qm

[royal pier]

1887 couldn't even do that in its prime.

[stoic garden]

prime model also had good range

[spark igloo]

old model had so much range

[royal pier]

And now the ARN has been made far easier.

[royal pier]

Yeah, but Demat.

[spark igloo]

I have s1 clips where im literally chipping people crossmap (I played model before it was cool)

[stoic garden]

true let me demat the fabric of space and time to bring my enemy closer

[spark igloo]

I also thought model needed nerfs if s1 fcar ever got nerfed

[royal pier]

You could/can kill a Light at like 15m if you spam fire and get a burn.

[spark igloo]

and it went unerfed until like s5

u could do that with 2 model shots

[stoic garden]

very consistently too

[spark igloo]

model 2 tapped light up to 17-19m at one point

[royal pier]

You bring yourself closer lol

[stoic garden]

you can't always do that, and model shows its versatility in those cases

[royal pier]

Let's just say it was an overbuff considering it was stupid close at a minimum.

[spark igloo]

apparently cerb was good pre nerf it was just REALLY hard to use

[royal pier]

Istg they didn't realize it would one tap light cause they forgot to account for burn.

[spark igloo]

I honestly dont really know cause I didnt play early s5

[royal pier]

Still bizarre to even let it get close to the 1887 they were nerfing in the same patch

[spark igloo]

I would take prime model over prime cerb honestly

at least prime model was a tiny bit mechanically challenging

cerb u hit like half the pellets and did 100 damage and at least 30 burn

[stoic garden]

embark does bizarre changes all the time

[spark igloo]

or even better miss a full shot and still 2 tap a medium

[royal pier]

Didn't like either. Wtf is the point of having 350 HP if so many weapons barely give af?

[spark igloo]

I wish heavy was a tank instead of a brawler

[royal pier]

Especially since Heavy was already the least played.

[stoic garden]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1277705256385646693/1394288595883524107/Xj3Jc4bv.mp4?ex=687643f1&is=6874f271&hm=5c5692ad2aa8fcdd44de9c8cef7a16f65e9dde6d1913953bb5d69e5ea39d68c6& to survive things like this

[royal pier]

At this point you barely do regardless.

[spark igloo]

I've always wanted every class to get like an extra 100 hp or smth

just raise the ttk and rebalance every weapon

[royal pier]

Fun edit tho

[spark igloo]

also lets them rework light from a weird poke annoying class into more of a damage one

[stoic garden]

I've always wanted every class to have hp in increments of 50 instead of 100 ☺️

[royal pier]

I mean easier to just nerf the shit like the FAMAS and Pike.

Cause more HP just means having to buff like half of Heavy's weapons significantly.

[stoic garden]

really?

[spark igloo]

atp it might unironically be easier to give everything 100 extra hp LOL

a season of pike meta only for it to be rebuffed to do the exact same thing

[royal pier]

Flamethrower, Sledgehammer, Spear, MGL32, they wound be worthless.

[spark igloo]

ofc you'd rebalance everything

[stoic garden]

i barely played s4 because of pike meta 😇

[royal pier]

Atm only a relative handful are the issue.

[spark igloo]

heavy meta unironically hasnt changed in a full year

[royal pier]

Heal ball

[spark igloo]

heal ball is bad in comp and ranked

[royal pier]

Heavy in general is if they are smart.

[spark igloo]

heavy is good in ranked?

[stoic garden]

as long as the options are tuned properly i honestly dont care

[royal pier]

Glitch Nade. Data Reshaper. Heavy useless.

[spark igloo]

you are actively tossing if u dont have a heavy

[stoic garden]

heavy minigun:

[royal pier]

I think they're just being dumb.

[stoic garden]

man i love minigun

[royal pier]

Kid named "toss glitch and focus fire."

[stoic garden]

kid named pike teammate beside me killing the light in 0.6 secs

[royal pier]

Pike shreds mini.

[spark igloo]

winch is one of the best specs in the game, sa12 is still one of the best weapons despite mountains of nerfs, rpg is an amazing fight opener, c4 lets u kite points for ages, c4 rpg lets u instakill players, dome is still essential for winning team fights

if not for nullifier existing minigun would probably still be strong in the meta

[royal pier]

Also mini still takes ages to get through goo nades all things considered.

[royal pier]

Medium has a good/better.

[stoic garden]

then lockbolt was also introduced

one of my favorite gadgets, albeit really fucking annoying to fight

[royal pier]

Data Reshaper.

[spark igloo]

MML is like a crippled HML, you can just get walked through by a team with heavies

I'd argue HHM is better than MML honestly

[stoic garden]

I've yet to see actual people run data reshaper

[spark igloo]

reshaper is good but medium has no space for it

[royal pier]

Not if you just focus on negating it.

[spark igloo]

dude what

[royal pier]

Do if you got 2.

[stoic garden]

what

[royal pier]

Dome Shield is a free team glitch.

[spark igloo]

I think this is your funniest take yet ben

[royal pier]

Nullifier the Heavy.

[stoic garden]

still protects you the few moments before the light throws it 😪

[spark igloo]

light doesnt even have space for null

[royal pier]

It's impact detonation and the swap speed is minimal

[royal pier]

That's silly. It can literally make it a 2v3. They don't want to take it.

[stoic garden]

great let me just reshape that glitch nade rq

[royal pier]

Yeah lemmi see you do that consistently.

[spark igloo]

they dont take it because glitch, gateway, and heal gun are basically required

[stoic garden]

if you can consistently mention offmeta gadgets in a competitive meta conversation then i think i can do it

[royal pier]

Mediums can bring Jump and Zip.

[spark igloo]

then medium is missing out on a different important gadget

[royal pier]

Because I'm saying that the comp players get like this:

[spark igloo]

even then gate is still good with jump and zip

[spark igloo]

ben has a conspiracy that comp players run what they perceive as meta not because its the most effective and best performing but because they dont want to run anything else

[stoic garden]

lol

https://youtu.be/4nOenCxEPSY ahh

[spark igloo]

which is funny because whenever comp players have tried force shit like fcar over pike or cerberus in the past its actively put them at a disadvantage

[royal pier]

In R6 Siege, LMGs were seem as a meme for years. Then, pros realized "oh shit not having to reload for an entire round or being able to just spray walls hoping to get a headshot os really strong."

They're human, and can be wrong about what's actually meta.

[spark igloo]

or when people tried forcing fcar into winch sledge cerberus meta LOL

[royal pier]

The fact that the meta is often different depending on the region literally helps my point.

[spark igloo]

@vernal cypress im looking at you

[royal pier]

Cause if there was an objective meta, it would be universal.

[spark igloo]

these Asian teams are usually miles below the EU and NA ones btw

they would get eaten alive in smth like pro league

[stoic garden]

i dont think it changes the fact that whatever asia is running will be crushed by eu/us meta

[royal pier]

Have we ever had a LAN where networking wasn't a major factor?

Cause aren't the Asian servers notoriously ass?

[stoic garden]

so how do you plan on using charge and slam with bad ping

[royal pier]

?

Who tf mentioned CnS?

[stoic garden]

asia meta

[spark igloo]

no but usually tournaments with multiple regions swap between regions between games

[royal pier]

It's been like 3 minutes

How tf you expect me to respond and watch?

[spark igloo]

if a team is winning on their servers and their non native servers that usually makes them the better team

[stoic garden]

insane and masterful baiting or goldfish memory, it's in the thumbnail bro

(and the video too)

[spark igloo]

PERSONALLY I knew the Asian finals meta before this video

[royal pier]

Wasn't the problem that there were barely any servers in Asia? So their ping is just always high?

[spark igloo]

no Asian servers are just plagued with cheaters iirc

and Asia is huge so its very likely certain areas are more affected by ping

ik OCE has to queue AS sometimes if you're thinking about that

[royal pier]

Yeah cause YouTube thumbnails are never irrelevant to the video itself.

[stoic garden]

in a korean tournament they had to ban ks23 lol

they know something we dont fr ✊

[royal pier]

A lot of times it'll be a thumbnail with CnS and the video is all about how nobody uses it.

[spark igloo]

Asia is on charge ks23 iirc

[royal pier]

Also, entirely irrelevant to the original point.

Cause they aren't using MML.

[stoic garden]

lmao

nah bro ama go eat, i see no point in this conversation anymore

[royal pier]

Just because someone hasn't done it, doesn't make it bad. See: the Siege example.

[spark igloo]

o7

[spark igloo]

nobody uses MML because MML is a crippled HML, you lack the sustain and pressure of HML

people have done it, those people had poor outcomes, that's why the meta is HML and not MML

[royal pier]

Years of ignoring a weapon category only for the pro league to get them nerfed.

[silver pollen]

what mode/rank, that sounds insane
or is this a tournament thing

[spark igloo]

ranked and comp scenes iirc, they played at like the equivalent of plat - low diamond im pretty sure

[royal pier]

Speaking of KS-23, I'm pretty sure the hipfire circle is literally wrong.

[spark igloo]

MML was more viable at certain points in the game and is definitely not the worst option right now, but it doesnt compare to HML

[royal pier]

Way smaller than what it actually is.

[spark igloo]

imo HLL is better than MML right now

[silver pollen]

as an asia player, I've never seen this
you sure it's in plat?

[spark igloo]

I have no idea, I just remember some Asian players talking about it a while ago and apparently is ran a lot in lan tournies

[silver pollen]

crazy stuff

ok if it's LANs that makes more sense

[spark igloo]

ik Asia has a lot of major tournaments

esp in like Korea given Nexon

India has a whole league too iirc

[royal pier]

Maybe LAN KS-23 is cracked.

[spark igloo]

maybe who knows

[royal pier]

Cause when it works, it works.

[stoic garden]

yes korea hosts many lans

[spark igloo]

from what I saw those players played like golds and plats tho, keep that in mind

[stoic garden]

nice gravity cube

[silver pollen]

just really surprised to hear this weapon i never see is meta in my server lol

[royal pier]

I call it the "Fuck You Cube."

[royal pier]

Cause on regular servers it'll just no reg.

[stoic garden]

so true

i kinda wanna see pro NA players use the top asia comp and see how it plays out

[royal pier]

Anti-grav cube is slept on, but also not really since what my clip does is countered by Data Reshaper/Glitch Nade/shooting the thing. Although shooting it can be hard. The visual effects distort where it actually is.

[stoic garden]

you could also run goo gun to make it even harder to destroy!

[royal pier]

You see me miss shots because the enemy wasn't where I their visuals were.

[spark igloo]

its good area denial

[royal pier]

It'd have to come from an ally.

[spark igloo]

I'd honestly argue it's closest comparison is like fire or gas if anything

[royal pier]

Not that that makes it bad.

[spark igloo]

it doesnt

[royal pier]

But Reshaper/Glitch just invalidate most gadgets

[stoic garden]

i like anti grav, helps when I'm playing minigun in quick cash 😍

i gotta try doing it again

[royal pier]

This strat will work until people start copying it.

I get away with it cause you basically never see it.

And for w/e reason, most Lights aren't using Glitch. They have like fucking Pyro Nade.

[spark igloo]

tbf in the videos im looking at all the mediums are running turret

[royal pier]

I see so much pyro nade

[spark igloo]

I think it's less of a meta thing and more of low level players are participating in the leagues

[stoic garden]

it would be interesting to see a "counter meta" to the current NA meta

[royal pier]

Which is what I want to see.

[spark igloo]

which is fine but people are coming out of it saying its the meta in these regions

[stoic garden]

i hate pyro nade omfg

[royal pier]

Like, I want Heavy to be meta, but a Demat Data Reshaper medium just laughs at any interesting strats.

[silver pollen]

yeah I mean in my ranked games I see the usual suspects

[stoic garden]

in one korean tournament a team decided to ban ks23 because the opposing team had a heavy with god aim that would destroy them with it

[silver pollen]

ARN, XP, FCAR, Pike, Cerb, Lewis, ShAK etc

[royal pier]

It's both bad yet always ends up being used in a way that specifically fucks with what I'm aiming to do.

[silver pollen]

normal guns that are at least good

[stoic garden]

yea

[royal pier]

Aka boring shit

[silver pollen]

i mean sometimes someone rocks up with a bow or model

[royal pier]

Cerb is OK to me now.

[stoic garden]

god forbid someone found joy in shooting up people with a water cooled gun

[silver pollen]

look all I'm saying is KS is still not performing in Asia

[stoic garden]

i was talking to ben saying boring as shit

[spark igloo]

That kinda already happened, NA started to move onto mesh in S5 with long range and pike being strong but EU stuck on Winch and it proved to be better

[spark igloo]

Boy do I have news for you...

[royal pier]

In a game with Flamethrower, MGL32, melee weapons, etc, using a gun you see in 95% of PvP games with guns seems boring

[stoic garden]

too bad they fucking suck and are not enjoyable to play in that regard

[silver pollen]

people wanna win, that's how it be

[spark igloo]

That's actually interesting cause Lewis is almost nonexistent in EU and NA

[royal pier]

ShAK-50's gimmick is a bit of spice, but it's also horseshit that it just out DPS's the melee options.

[silver pollen]

Might be because of my middling rank tbf

[spark igloo]

Even in mid ranks here

[royal pier]

They could just lower their DPS

[silver pollen]

lewis is still a comfort pick for some

[spark igloo]

It's not terrible but it's just not really ran here, most people consider m60 a direct upgrade and sa12 and shak better picks

[royal pier]

Lewis feels like how the ARs should. Decent recoil with moderate damage, not gonna out-dps a melee most of the time.

[spark igloo]

@silver pollen what spec would u say is most ran

[silver pollen]

shak gaming is more common yes

[stoic garden]

i find that it's a good long range sidegrade to the m60, but if you want to invest in that just run deagles at that point

[spark igloo]

Lewis is pretty well designed it just doesn't fit on heavy well

[silver pollen]

for which class? keeping in mind my experience is WT/QP/Plat

[stoic garden]

btw m60 and lewis have near identical ttks

[spark igloo]

Plat heavy

[royal pier]

Lewis Gun has the benefit of mobility. Deagles want you to be near-stationary if you wanna complete mid range.

[spark igloo]

Heavy is best in cqc and the only thing that breaks that mold is deagles because getting poked by a heavy dmr at 40m without falloff is a little scary

[royal pier]

I shoulda been asleep hours ago.

[spark igloo]

Society if deagles weren't balanced off rng spread

[royal pier]

MGL32 is technically mid range capable.

[stoic garden]

Society if deagles weren't balanced off rng spread

[silver pollen]

been a while so take this with a handful of salt
mesh>winch>charge>goo
mesh and winch are close, charge is seen sometimes, goo gun is nonexistent

[spark igloo]

Ok that's pretty much NA

Actually NA might be closer to EU with mostly winch now

[silver pollen]

makes sense to me

[indigo nexus]

Regardless of rank, M60 outclasses it in most ways nowadays

[royal pier]

Sometimes long range lol

[spark igloo]

I think the average NA players have caught on to winch being the best spec

[royal pier]

I don't have the clip on my phone, but MGL32 can actually really shut down roof campers.

[stoic garden]

in eu wt i never fucking see heavy so i can barely say

[royal pier]

Not on Kyoto though but fuck that map. I mean it can but the roofs are weird.

[stoic garden]

it seems to be mostly winch and charge tho

[spark igloo]

EU never really stopped playing winch

[royal pier]

Skyway and Monoco roofs let you do this.

[indigo nexus]

The shak winch elite don’t want you to know this, but goo gun spear is the real meta.

[royal pier]

Goo is blocking spear atm

[spark igloo]

Ok I was gonna say cause generally high ground counters gls

[royal pier]

You gotta hit it straight on. It breaks the roof in two nades.

[indigo nexus]

Yeah… I still find it to work better than alternatives though

[spark igloo]

Heavy has made a pretty strong comeback in NA wt from what I could tell

Compared to like s5 and 6

[royal pier]

There's some cheese you can do with Winch, but I've resisted the urge.

[stoic garden]

I'm usually close to the only heavy in every wt tournament it's crazy how much of an advantage i gain

[spark igloo]

Which fair I don't like solo qing heavy either

[royal pier]

Instead of the regular spin yeet, you basically time a jump when you do it, and you kinda toss the enemy up right in front of you.

[indigo nexus]

I think I know what you mean, I never really tried that though

[silver pollen]

solo heavy is definitely pain but when you get the team who uses you like they should it's great

[royal pier]

I admit to spin canceling. I feel like with shit being as broken as it it, I deserve it.

[stoic garden]

"who uses you like they should"
the double akm turret mediums sticking to my mesh emitter barricade rpg ass:

(we won the tournament without ever wiping)

[spark igloo]

I wouldn't even call it broken

You're actively nerfing yourself by playing a bad weapon to use it

[stoic garden]

i loved using emitter before they made it not go through barricade, and after the last nerf it's almost completely ass 💔

[spark igloo]

And it's really funny

[royal pier]

Half the badness them breaking shit they fixed last season.

Spin just no-regging for no reason.

Before, most of time it had something to do with goo.

[stoic garden]

spin no reg is a new one

[silver pollen]

emitter was free value at the start of the season it felt like, i definitely abused it with my duo partner

[spark igloo]

Pike meta is ravaging the game so 5 billion more nerfs to the 4 useless melee weapons and the shitty heal ball

[stoic garden]

rpg, too is free value

[royal pier]

Nah it used to be really bad. Like, it didn't work most of the time.

[stoic garden]

i feel like it wasn't oppressive enough to deserve the nerf lol

[royal pier]

The true power of the Heal Ball is using it to block shots and smack people.

[silver pollen]

yeah and i'm not a huge fan of rpg opening either

[spark igloo]

Yeah

[royal pier]

Fuck it, not sleeping today.

[stoic garden]

before the nerf i used it like that too when my fps was too ass to aim properly

[spark igloo]

I might pull the same

[stoic garden]

it's morning for me

[indigo nexus]

I find I do well enough with the spear that the idea of using any kind of exploit with it is not appealing to me

Unironically it might be my best performing weapon, probably from how much I’ve used it

[stoic garden]

slept very well thanks to a moth smacking itself on my face the whole night

[royal pier]

Generally same, but the cancel does have downsides. You're still slowed, and can't attack for a moment.

[spark igloo]

You should be able to cancel spear anyways without penalties

[royal pier]

It's basically defensive play.

At least just make it two spins only.

Bring back the slide spin.

[indigo nexus]

Not without other changes to the attack, I’d say. There would be no reason to use the third spin in almost any scenario

Making it just two spins would be nice though.

[stoic garden]

guys what would happen if cashout was 4v4

[royal pier]

I knew I would die doing this but I wanted the clip as an example.

The KS-23 Chuck wombo combo.

[stoic garden]

emitter throw + ks hit is something that would be meta in asia

[royal pier]

Works with RPG too, obviously.

Wish the physics on the ball were less wonky.

[stoic garden]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1182329984723976283/1385461180533051463/image.png?ex=687b10c6&is=6879bf46&hm=d2c535922bd2110c27a3d13fa2d3b7a8399a21ca97fdf561c56922f68205d7b9& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1182329984723976283/1385461179622752317/image.png?ex=687b10c5&is=6879bf45&hm=7f28874302912dc3396c895df38b404e35504357a582cab37bda468451df4fa5&

[royal pier]

https://tenor.com/view/what-a-perfect-fit-adam-sandler-saturday-night-live-nice-fit-fits-snug-gif-25069239

[stoic garden]

2 healing emitters and an aps

[royal pier]

Don't ruin their fun and inform them of Data Reshaper.

[stoic garden]

NOOO

[royal pier]

Medium is the "no fun allowed" build.

[royal pier]

Here's it on a dummy that's actually fighting back.

[stoic garden]

truest shit ever until you learn demat kiting

[royal pier]

Fuck it, gonna try it on actual players.

Fix melee and I won't feel the need to cheese.

[brazen mango]

Its really funny people are still delusional enough to think comp players dont test things like reshaper and other gadgets

Data Reshaper AND no defib comps were literally played in big tourneys back in S3, people just dont consider them consistent

BURTS literally played HML no defib in breakout and won, OG 223 played Data Reshaper HMM and won maps with it, they just arent consistent options and in a comp environment consistency is king.

[brazen mango]

Brainworms

Literally also PROVEN BY DOUBLE MODEL META because it was ONLY RAN IN COMP and nobody besides comp players considered model an issue

[indigo nexus]

There are multiple cognitive biases that certainly play into it.

You’d need an awful lot of data collection to be able to make objective decisions about how meta exactly something is, the player base’s idea of meta will always be a little off.

I’m not sure even Embark could pull that off for the highest levels of play

[royal pier]

Wut

I saw double model in fucking Quick Cash

[indigo nexus]

In my experience model was only popular across skill levels at its peak

Unsurprising at any rate, it was inherently better for more skilled players

Just prior to its big nerf, it wasn’t used that much by casual players as far as I could tell

[royal pier]

I would literally have servers that were 80% Medium and most of them would be 1887. Any mode.

Against actually players you can get some...weird results.

[stoic garden]

HUH

trampoline

[royal pier]

Sent that first medium to Mars.

[stoic garden]

world's first living jump pad

[royal pier]

Middle kill was just to show the power of spinning on enemies coming around corners.

[indigo nexus]

Interesting, you use heal orb with spear? I found it hard to get as good use out of as lockbolt for example

[royal pier]

Last one the hop just kinda halted their momentum.

[royal pier]

Helps with breakpoints, and I use it to block shots while still moving.

[indigo nexus]

Fair. Maybe I should try it again using it… more offensively like that

[royal pier]

Nice that I can pick it up and place it again at full HP in like 3 seconds.

[indigo nexus]

It always slips from my mind, the idea that carryables work like a discount riot shield.

[brazen mango]

Even back then it wasnt popular outside diamond/ruby elo AND COMP

its a statistical fact

[royal pier]

I guess midwest US was just built different

[indigo nexus]

It seemed popular to me at that point

[indigo nexus]

What statistics?

[royal pier]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-raiden-senator-armstrong-source-gif-25038929

[brazen mango]

I was part of a private competitive forum back then where they shared pickrate graphs over time and split by elo

Stats directly taken from their API

[indigo nexus]

Ah.

Well, I would have very much liked to have seen that myself but I suppose that will not be doable

Would be really nice if they made a public API that one could query for any of the weapon data which they collect, though their EULA would probably need to be changed

[brazen mango]

Im not in the forum anymore, left when I took a break from the game due to my military service, I still have the graphs saved but despite me not liking how the forum was ran id lever leak any info they dropped there

[indigo nexus]

I would then probably spend a very long time attempting to build a system which would attempt to quantify the game’s balance in a semi-objective sense, assuming they actually collect all of the data which would be needed for such a thing

[brazen mango]

Model even at its peak wasnt a statistical anomaly at all, it was underused if anything by 99% of the playerbase, that is a statistical fact AND THE LITERAL REASON why they took so long to nerf it

[royal pier]

I know that's a lie. They literally said in the AMA that making an open API would be difficult.

You're getting worked.

I doubt Embark was leaking API stats on some obscure forum lol.

It's like those trackers that claim to know console numbers, they don't.

[brazen mango]

Again, not gonna leak stats, so just take this, dont really care if you believe me

[stoic garden]

skul only lies when they accuse him of cheating (he says he cheats)

[brazen mango]

Please never call me a liar again when you have zero clue of what you are talking about <3

[strong brook]

I am growing fond of the Matter

[stoic garden]

i am growing food underwater

[vernal cypress]

I refused to play that dogshit weap for so long and punished myself for it

[vernal cypress]

Model was substantially underpicked in prime 128 damage era.
Embark balances heavily off of data and pick rate, hence why sledge and sword got nerfed recently and why cerb got wildly overtuned in 5.6.

Low Pick Rate and Low Win Rate = Buff
High Pick Rate and High Win Rate = Nerf.

Its why shit like FCAR and AK will never recieve buffs cause their % is probably within "acceptable" levels even though both weapons are fundamentally bad right now with not really a space in the meta.

[brazen mango]

^

[lofty venture]

AK not meta? Lol you're kidding right? It has the highest pick rate at the top and is excellent for killing Heavies post Model and Cerb nerf.

FCAR on PC still 'meh' with M&K as it's recoil pattern from bullet 6-7 is still just not worth using, even after it was toned down, when milliseconds matter. The AK doesn't have this weird recoil jump, just the lateral recoil that can be easily offset by strafing.

[royal pier]

Bite me

Literally entire servers of 1887s but nah only the blessed elite used it due to being much more enlightened.

Their stats are probably not even properly counting assists from the 1887.

[grand turtle]

Full lobbies of models?
Where?
That weapon is dead as far as I can tell

Or did you mean in the past?

[lofty venture]

My buddy who was a Model 1887 main pre-nerf, played on a 6 cm / 360... that's how damn good the weapon was relative to its aim requirement.

[lofty venture]

I think he meant in the past.

[grand turtle]

I played with the model in season 1 as it fit my playstyle more
Back then fcar was in the spotlight

It saddens me that things got nerfed enough to make the model be the correct pick eventually.
Now it is a "shotgun" that gets outdamaged by ARs at close range.
The trend of killing the top picked weapon still goes strong it seems

[royal pier]

We're talking the past

[lofty venture]

The Cerb still fucks at close range. The Model RoF and reload is just embarrassingly slow.

[grand turtle]

I would argue that cerberus is also disappointing now.
Imo all shotguns but light class shotguns are some misunderstanding

I would expect the shotgun with short range to be good at said range, not average.
Pick an AR and you are just as threatening plus range is no longer a big limitation for you.

[lofty venture]

Cloak needs to get yeeted from the game, it's one of the reasons guns many of the guns underperform and some are just broken like the Double Barrel

[royal pier]

Half the power of old 1887 was the ability to take big chunks and set up your team.

Or, more likely, the fact that a shit ton of mediocre players were using the 1887 was dragging down the average.

They never actually show the data, and they lie so often I simply do not trust Embark.

[royal pier]

Maybe overall. Does not change that I was seeing multiple every match at the time.

And like I said, Embark lies, a lot.

[exotic skiff]

Easier for you to say they lie rather than taking the truth pill

[grand turtle]

Double barrel became broken only because the weapons that could put it in check got nerfed. Thats my opinion.
A gun with no stat changed doesnt just become broken out of the sudden.

Some shotguns and similar starter to hit like wet paper and some (matter and db) stayed shotguns

[exotic skiff]

And I can tell you that what skull is saying is true, i am part of the comp forum and they show us some data from the api

[vernal cypress]

Both weapons are fundamentally not worth running when FAMAS, Pike and Model are all infinitely better than them in the meta.

Same as XP and M11 being bad because 93R, Matter and ARN are all by far better picks.

The fact that there’s literally like 1 full auto weapon that’s actually worth using in the current state of the game is wild… but hey people want random ass weapons to be meta for whatever reason

[vernal cypress]

Not really.

DB is now stronger than it was in S1 when it got rightfully nerfed.

It has never been a bad / throw pick ever since the reload buff and with it doing 195 damage per shell it’s completely over the top.

[vernal cypress]

Not really.

The only thing they really have lied about is servers being “fixed” and spawns being fixed.

Outside of that they don’t really lie about shit

[brazen mango]

"FCAR Recoil"

[grand turtle]

The full auto being meta will never change unless other weapons will get their souls back.
Shotguns should have a big damage advantage up close
Marksman rifles and other precision weapons that shoot slow should have the 2x headshot multi to reward good aim instead of being high risk while doing similar if not less than automatic guns.

Otherwise what is the point really?

Automatic guns are the most forgiving and the most damaging for the most part and the range and damage drop allow you to still bother people at range.

What does taking repeater give you exactly?
If you miss, you are almost guaranteed dead. If you score a headshot with it, it doesnt do a lot of damage.
Model is so weak that it gets outdamaged by automatics up close.
The SA heavy shotgun kinda gets carried by winch ngl. Without it it would be a joke or it would require some monkey tactics.

[brazen mango]

<3

[royal pier]

They straight-up leave suff out of the patch notes and sometimes it's never even acknowledged.

They said they wanted to reduce FOMO, then continued to add more FOMO.

Like, melee gets blocked by Mesh and Dome Shield now. Seems way too deliberate to be a bug.

[worthy bear]

guy below me likes big dicks

[vernal cypress]

Like what? You’re saying “they leave stuff out” but you don’t bring up anything to support your claim.

If we’re still bitching about “Oh I can’t get this cosmetic that I will use for all of a week before the next shiny thing comes out” instead of the fundamental lack of any worthwhile changes to Cashout, Weapons, Servers, Progression, New Player Experience over LITERALLY anything else then your priorities are in the mud

[royal pier]

I literally did

[vernal cypress]

That’s true let’s make out

[royal pier]

Not to mention every time they bring up stats, it's weird and vague.

[muted orbit]

DAY 43 of asking to please
REVERT PING SYSTEM ASSIST
It was fine before, no one ever complained about it, and now i cant ping the spot i want. It always goes to some objective!! Makes it even harder for Solo Q players trying to play team!

[thick holly]

Ngl I haven't noticed the mesh/dome shield block melee hits now

[lofty venture]

Damn that's smooth. Almost too smooth lol. Not scripting either huh? You an FCAR main by chance ha?

[royal pier]

Real noticeable in WT rn.

[thick holly]

Yeah, I haven't played since the most recent world tour update, just been busy with other things

Idk maybe it's just the way I play riot shield where I haven't noticed it

[brazen mango]

No, I have like 50 hours on FCAR at max

[thick holly]

Honestly I hope riot shield doesn't get changed too much whenever they work on melee more. Gameplay wise it's at a really good spot, just needs some consistency

[brazen mango]

But recoil control and learning patterns isnt hard

[lofty venture]

Interesting....that seems pretty sus to me, especially considering this game has a serious problem with players recoil scripting. M11 is the script weapon of choice this season.

[brazen mango]

Yeah I definetly would post a clip of me recoil scripting in a public official discord

You can tell its not a script because the spray is nowhere near perfect aswell

[thick holly]

Only thing the shield really needs is a consistent way to reduce damage from sledge and spear

Because spear is an absolute hard counter to riot shield. There's not a single thing you can do to outplay them unless they are one hit

[muted orbit]

Fix Ping System Aim Assist
Fix Hit Reg
Nerf Cl40 to the ground
Nerf double barrel
Remove cloak, invis nades are enough
Fix WT cashout domes, its too op. glitching it should at least give us like 10/20 secs
Give us 2 separate buttons on console to Reload / Grab
Buff Healing Beam reworking it to heal 2 teammates depleting faster. People would actually want to play around support.
Let us change Sights mid game
While quewing for a match, let us go to practice range with our lobby maybe?! I love that in warzone
PLZ FIX PING SYSTEM

[muted condor]

Skul is also a top 500 player btw

[lofty venture]

I believe, but some scripters are dumb enough to do it.

[lofty venture]

I believe it by the ruby trinket.

[wheat jetty]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/970264238201389086/1357830380618514705/394292f1-b0d0-43bd-a92b-19a7558616ce.gif?ex=687b6656&is=687a14d6&hm=334740a65dd08108ccee1db955b7e8b8edfc9911f004ba85525204b481cd8346&

Shuld be a finals gif ..its wery fitting

[brazen mango]

just for you with handcam

[sudden dove]

Healing Emitter as a Yarn Ball

[placid slate]

Outside of maybe dropping them through a floor, or throwing goo nades near them so they only no reg

[copper aspen]

I’m proposing and ARN-220 buff which I made for my airsoft gun(NOT A REAL GUN!!!!!!)

[restive plover]

This is why I got cross platform off

[indigo nexus]

this really needs to be done on moving players for it to be relevant to their point

they weren't exactly making the argument that the FCAR's recoil was a problem against stationary targets...

[muted condor]

Also idk why he’s acting like the fcar is hard to control or something

[brazen mango]

console aim assist does this for people without them having to put the effort in <3

[brazen mango]

its easier on moving players, this game has recoil smoothing

[restive plover]

Yeah but no consoles players aim stays perfect like that lol

[brazen mango]

my point exactly

[indigo nexus]

Well, er... strongly disagreed. The recoil smoothing for me only makes up for a small fraction of what that adds.

[cunning wyvern]

They removed aim assist?????

[static radish]

i guess message in all chats to use server yay

[sudden pewter]

If you do that I will personally call Obama(he’s my Facebook friend) and have a drone strike sent to your house

[static radish]

when will i get fireball launcher?

[royal pier]

A huge chunk of melee's issues is hitreg and lunge being jank.

I wish we could turn on a "debug" mode or w/e you wanna call it and see the actual hitboxes.

[pure shore]

swords are bae

[thick holly]

Riot shield doesn't have the lunge, so hopefully it won't be too touched too much. But yeah better hit registration would be nice

[royal pier]

Lunge just needs to be more aggressive, but require being properly aimed at the enemy.

[thick holly]

In terms of gameplay and damage amounts, I feel shield is at such a good spot

[royal pier]

It's supposed to, it's just kinda broken. Spear lunge only really works on the first swipe.

And "works" is a generous word.

[thick holly]

Really?

I didn't even know it was supposed to have one, it already feels really good in its current state. Just needs some consistency with blocking & swings

[placid slate]

Lunge shouldn't force you out of a slide first

[royal pier]

I think the challenge is the reality that the netcode and servers are jank.

They might just need to turn up the intensity of existing systems or something.

Or make the hitboxes more generous.

[thick holly]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Idk I've never really had much of an issue with hitting, but I have noticed a few times it misses when it should have clearly been a hit

[muted condor]

Shield needs its hurt box fixed and a actual reason to hold the shield up

[thick holly]

It does have reasons

Grenades, flashbangs, breach drill, winch claw. Riot shield blocks those with the shield up

[royal pier]

When we get more specializations, hopefully Medium gets something to help close distance or slow enemies so that Light can't just Dash away.

[placid slate]

We need a wet floor sign

Spits water nearby, reduces the cap on velocity for normal movement

[royal pier]

Lights falling on their ass due to wet floors.

[placid slate]

Like it would be cool

Fuck yourself across the map because your feet are wet

[thick holly]

Maybe like glitch trap but a specialization?

[royal pier]

They could also just have a .25‐.35 or so second delay between Dash uses so that they can't just mash to get away.

[royal pier]

Was thinking a sort of slow field. Nothing insane, but enough to not allow simply sprinting away. Force them to use utility to put distance.

[thick holly]

Mhm

Honestly I would love to see a light specialization that wasn't just movement

[placid slate]

It'd have to offer the light some form of survivability

[thick holly]

I know it's the whole purpose of the light, but it would be cool to have a bit of a switch up

[royal pier]

Honestly, the H+ shoulda been a Spec.

But not the current version.

[indigo nexus]

You're not gonna believe this

[thick holly]

I still see that as part of movement in a way

[royal pier]

It would feel less BS if it did only a small burst of initial healing, then did a slow bit of healing like the Heal Ball for a bit after.

Ya'll aware of Doc from Siege?

[placid slate]

How?

[placid slate]

Full heal from a stim?

[reef granite]

thatd be op

[royal pier]

Something where the Light can use single syringes on an ally or themselves could work.

NOT a full heal.

[thick holly]

The way I see it is people use it to move around enemies with it being harder to spot. Even though it isn't direct movement, it still offers safer movement

[thick holly]

Yeah I could see that being like the dagger where it's a "melee heal"

[royal pier]

Just mechanically have it be a single syringe at a time and not just a a ranged Heal Beam on speed.

[placid slate]

Would negate the problems it would have being a light spec

[restive plover]

The light needs movement though to make up for the low HP

How do you counter light? Play as one

[placid slate]

Is mesh shield a movement spec by proxy? I can use it to reposition

[royal pier]

Could have the stim give a slight speed boost, but only when the Light uses them on themselves.

[indigo nexus]

Invis is kind of bad for moving around enemies... it's very loud and barely concealing while on the move

[restive plover]

They could always bring back the nuke, just saying

[indigo nexus]

it's really an ambush / confusion thing

[royal pier]

Would have to have two types of charges, one for allies and another for the Light. Don't wanna encourage hoarding.

[thick holly]

No not really because it can be used by teammates too. I know invis bomb is also a think but that's a gadget

[thick holly]

Yeah, but you can kind of see where I'm coming from

[placid slate]

So is demat not a movement spec because teammates can go through the holes?

[restive plover]

So what’s the best overall medium build to run?

[indigo nexus]

not really :p

[royal pier]

I want cloak to be more like an active Vanish Bomb.

Fucked around making this a few weeks ago.

[thick holly]

I never said that wasn't..??? Why are you guys trying to turn this into an argument

[royal pier]

The way invis in general works is bad. Shouldn't be dependent on graphics.

Poor Lights think they're stealthy, but I can just...see the shimmer.

[restive plover]

What should it be dependent on

[royal pier]

Range. See the image

[placid slate]

Also it's loud

[restive plover]

That’s still graphics though

[thick holly]

I just mainly see it as invis helps with movement

[royal pier]

No it would have the identical effect regardless.

[restive plover]

If you’re running shotgun without invisible cloak that’s mad

[royal pier]

So if you're farther away, can't see a thing. Then the closer you are, you just get less transparent. No shimmer.

[royal pier]

Dash let's you get in and out.

[placid slate]

Also grapple

[royal pier]

I love fighting Cloak Light cause once I catch them, bye.

Especially with Winch and sledgehammer/spear.

Like yay you can't just mash Q and escape.

[placid slate]

Cloak is just kinda shit because they gutted it due to people having hearing problems

[restive plover]

True, I still prefer cloak though

[quiet elm]

Best gadget in the game STUN GUN BRING IT BACKKK

[royal pier]

They should copy Fortnite's visual sound system. Rework invis to be purely visual, where the closer they are, the more visible they become.

[placid slate]

That's functionally how it works right now

It's pretty easy to see a mf at 5m

[royal pier]

Not rlly, sometimes I see the shimmer like 15m out.

And the lighting can sometimes make it unreasonably difficult to see.

[quiet elm]

Ruby

[royal pier]

Just feels random.

[quiet elm]

How do I get to level 1 on server rank

[muted condor]

Yap

[willow spear]

yap more

[quiet elm]

Emerald

[sudden dove]

Coin throwing knives

[blissful oasis]

I think it would be cool to have throwing axes 12 gauge pump action shot gun a pump action rifle a drum gun p90 and for fun a 50 bmg pistol

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/commas-comma-grammar-my-beloved-grammar-commas-my-beloved-gif-7340792323635393658

[sudden pewter]

It would be really cool if we could have a Rick & Morty skin
Fortnite has several(?) and clearly we’re behind the curve

If we could have a venomous snake pet that sits on our characters neck and bites us giving Lights a lethal dose of venom if they don’t go positive in a match that would be cool too

[spark igloo]

If you think ak has a high kick rate "at the top" you've never seen "the top"

[restive plover]

hahahaha

[shell sonnet]

having guranteed full cloak at certain distances sounds good
no risk of being seen when running on rooftops and randomly getting beamed
id love that

just needs some adjustments to activation, because having full cloak from range, then shooting someone, and getting full cloak again would suck
maybe some timer for which you cant cloak after shooting (maybe taking damage delays based on amount too?)

[royal pier]

Could have aiming with the LH1, Sniper, and drawing the bow break invis?

[shell sonnet]

i mean, its an option
but im more concerned about them getting away for free once the enemy shoots back
they can already shoot out of invis rn anyways

problem might also be that a lot of cashouts are inside
where cloak would become borderline useless

maybe they could do something with ranges and movement?

after x meters, you will always be invisible
sprinting will reveal you at x meters
walking at x
crouch walking at x meters
if you stand still you will be invisible no matter what

[royal pier]

Yeah probably some sort of delay when hit.

There's a lot of options, I just mocked up a basic premise.

[shell sonnet]

that last point might need an added delay for shooting out of full invis tho

[shell sonnet]

yeah, not a bad idea
cant hurt to spitball a few things

(also, option 1 is basically just the barber from lethal company)

[whole egret]

Laser beam and battle axe when

[drowsy orchid]

Balancing this game like an esport is going to kill it

[lofty venture]

Apologies, I guess I should have been more concise! The AKM does have a very high usage rate in ranked mode.
https://thefinals.gg/tier-list/weapons?mode=ranked&order=

However, you're right, its its C-tier in ranked mode by KDA
https://thefinals.gg/tier-list/weapons?mode=ranked&order=

The AKM even performs at D-tier in ranked mode by KD
https://thefinals.gg/tier-list/weapons?mode=ranked&order=

[shell sonnet]

probably

[normal ice]

Esports suck

[spark igloo]

This is factoring lower ranks when I'm pretty sure the conversation was high ranks like diamond and ruby

This also only tracks pc and people who install the software for tracking

[muted condor]

Also the AKM is the base gun everyone starts with so it’s not a surprise

[spark igloo]

Yeah

They released a 1 year facts thing a while back and I think ak had like an 80% usage rate

[lethal wadi]

.

[tidal urchin]

take cl40 out of ranked and world tour

[desert spindle]

Agreed

[drowsy orchid]

What’s the balance philosophy behind making the MP5’s TTK so fast despite also being one of the easiest weapons to control in the game?

[desert spindle]

What would you guys think of impact grenades for light class?

[narrow comet]

What percent of the data shapers value comes from the fact that no one is expecting you to use it?

[clever cloud]

Best light meta build?

[strong brook]

Oh my god, the Matter is so good shit

[south spire]

Light weapon idea: nunchucks
It would be pretty cool

[royal pier]

Don't worry everyone, I've fixed SA1216 vs. Heavy.

[lapis dock]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1m3miie/how_to_fix_balance_issue/ hey Embark, i just made a post about Pick and Ban and how it could be integrated to the game in Tournaments like WT and Ranked. Give it a look

[tulip knoll]

M11 needs a mag size nerf

[glad terrace]

no

[placid slate]

Dunno man, most of what I've seen is them balancing around what mfs are whining about

[tulip grove]

The 500 "Nerf CL-40" requests without elaborating what part of it needs nerfing

Personally I'd argue it needs a splash damage nerf of 75 from 90 so when the splash damage fall-off kicks in it will have a much harder time to 2-shot Lights.

But then comes the problem of it having the TTK of a pool noodle at anything but a direct hit, which is antithetical to the weapon's fantasy it tries to sell to it's players.

[placid slate]

Think it could be better off as a skill shot maybe?

Like separate direct damage and splash

[tulip grove]

I mean maybe but at that point you're selling a slug shotgun fantasy. And the gun already has 100 direct and 90 splash damage.

Problem is, 90×2=Dead Light

Another option is to nerf ammo economy or fire rate to make the shots matter a whole lot more, but that could make the matchup unfair, depending on how harsh those nerfs can be, as they influence the weapon's TTK and threat uptime.

[placid slate]

The thing already suffered from how the ks23 handles its ttk, so lower fire rate won't work

[tulip grove]

And nerfing ammo pool will make it so that you need to never miss when emptying your magazine on a Heavy.

[placid slate]

The thing already suffered from how the ks23 handles its ttk, so lower fire rate won't work

Although at the same time the ks could have it's ttk fixed if it had a 0.6 second delay between shots or less

[tulip grove]

KS forces you to cycle the weapon before being able to fire again. Idk if the same applies to CL

[placid slate]

I'm aware yes

[copper hazel]

To be fair invis instantly breaks as soon as you start drawing arrow on bow

Invis is already useless on sniper too

So it's mostly only lh1 nerf

[ashen hawk]

MGL32 is bad. Okay, give it hitscan. 💀

[shell sonnet]

I was thinking of a loch n load weapon from tf2

No splash on misses (still direct for destruction)
High damage and decent splash aoe on direct hit and decent hits to kill on directs

Might be better for a theoretical thumper gl on light
But there is a back and forth between "self damage would make a splash gl on light with low hp more balanced" and "lights can avoid close range with self damage too easily to be balanced"

One could probably hold a debate if risk of self damage would be more balanced for M or L

And while i feel like a strong hit or miss option fits well into lights kit, it can be really problematic to give easy splash for mediums against light
Might be better the othwr way around

(But then we end up at the model vs cl-40 thing again)

[slim herald]

D:

please god no

Instead give double MAG(MAC) to Mediums

and a 50 calibur intervention sniper to heavies

[shut bane]

I can get behind that

[slim herald]

m11 is already a MAG(MAC) tho but still, for mediums, double it up! :D Let it have crazy spread, but 60 bullets, 30 on each

[lost vector]

Please add spiked or brass knuckles

[inland willow]

Im upset

Why no cassette tape as a skin for the flame nades

[sudden pewter]

I don’t see how the two are related in any way

[plucky spade]

bro just came up with an idea

[deep turtle]

Recently thought of some good potential weapons.

an AUG (M/H)
a P90 (L/M)
a scythe (??/sword or spear skin :\ )
and a flail (M/H)

Wouldn’t be upset to see a sword/spear scythe skin

[deep turtle]

1000%

[plush harbor]

lol what

m11 is already mediocre as fuck

[heavy tusk]

it's not that it's strong, but it can get annoying to deal with 40 rounds paired with one of the fastest reload times in the game. At least the M60 makes you wait before you get another magdump

[plush harbor]

m60 has a quick reload too??

[heavy tusk]

I can't tell if you're serious, but the M60 reload time is twice the length of the M11's dry reload

3.5 seconds is a long wait in comparison to most weapons. The only mag reload that's slower is the minigun

[sudden pewter]

Hebvy Slow

[heavy tusk]

Herbvy is the reason Ospuze is sugar free now

[muted orbit]

DAY 43 of asking to please
REVERT PING SYSTEM ASSIST
It was fine before, no one ever complained about it, and now i cant ping the spot i want. It always goes to some objective!! Makes it even harder for Solo Q players trying to play team!

[restive plover]

Aye

[heavy tusk]

honestly i'm surprised it isn't just a setting

[restive plover]

Im new and the pinging system on ziplines, objectives helps me coordinate with my no-mic random teammates but it should prioritize players over everything else so it doesnt get in the way during fights yeah

[heavy tusk]

born to warn teammates
forced to go for that zipline

[sudden pewter]

I’ll try to ping an enemy and it pings a distant objective or smt

[heavy tusk]

it also makes your teammates think you're the solo queue that pings the objective eveyone is already going for

[restive plover]

are you complaining about ease of communication?

[muted condor]

Trying to shoot a enemy but the objective icon overlaps them is also annoying

[sudden pewter]

I know it’s a super niche complaint but it’s annoying when it happens

[heavy tusk]

may not mean much, but having your teammates think you're the annoying guy over miscommunication can affect cohesion

[restive plover]

miscommunication causes alot more though probably, at least in like every other game it does

[muted condor]

Give use Ready or Not communication system >:)

[sudden pewter]

Real

[muted condor]

Three levels of command options on three different wheels

[sudden pewter]

That or a Paladins communication system where there’s a rhythm of keys used to communicate distinct ideas

Danger - Enemy - Flanker
Objective - Path - Left
It’s more nuanced but it was amazing and very easy to grasp

[muted halo]

l don't get why old Dice devs haven't added an option for transparence on this when BF titles have it... like you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[muted condor]

Exactly

[muted halo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4BxCszetEY

[muted condor]

Features like that should be considered standard for any modern game

[sudden pewter]

Game Development Hawd~

[muted orbit]

I think you missed the point bro. Ping should be accurate so we can teamplay without mic

[heavy tusk]

it's likely a good chunk of the team aren't ex-Dice and they probably have other things they're focusing on, so I get why it may have been overlooked. That said, it's core QoL that needs to be improved. They did it with the training room/dummies, they should do it with the ping system as well

[muted halo]

This seems to be a issue for controller imo. with mnk you can clearly ping where you want. The problem is, if that is the case why not add an option to turn it off? Or even a sensitivity slider to how far it can activate to redirect for the objective.

[restive plover]

Theyre asking to revert, my assumption was the old system couldnt ping stuff like ziplines which is wayy worse for teamplay

[muted halo]

yeah it definitely needs better QOL

[muted orbit]

Exactly. I love to play with randoms and using every communication i have besides the mic. And this thing they switched just killed my teammplay game with randoms.
Game is so fast that if you send a wrong “Steal Cashout A” when you really wanted to just ping the best spot to play from, completely screws the play im trynna make

[muted orbit]

It could ping everything you just needed to be very precise with the ping and i truly think that it was better like this. How it was before they changed it

[restive plover]

I dont know the skill distribution of this game but that feels like itd be worse then the current system for most

not that the current system is great either

[muted condor]

The current system will auto ping objects that you aren’t even aiming at

Didn’t used to have that problem

[restive plover]

yeah it might not be accurate which upsets players who are trying to be accurate but your missing the point that presumably like every other game alot of the people playing are not trying to be that precise, so pinging a "close but not exact" object is better, I havnt noticed issues in games and im not that good lmao
I think they should just give players highest priority so they always get pinged, and a setting to disable pinging objects ig

[muted halo]

Turning it into an option or sensitivity slider seems to be the best way to address this. Some people will prefer it auto correcting to points of interest (ziplines, objectives etc...), others probably not depending on what you want. For those not getting what l am trying to imply, imagine a bubble/circle around those things and the slider changes the distance for it to auto target to it, even allowing you to remove it by putting zero/minimal value possible.

[restive plover]

yeah like "Ping radius", kinda like uh, auto aim cheats lol

[muted halo]

yeah

[sudden pewter]

I’m on PC and I still end up pinging things I’m not aiming at, it’s annoying

[graceful nova]

Can the lock.phase() dome shield be disabled by a glitch trap?

[muted orbit]

The thing is the way it was before im pretty sure no one ever complained about it. And they still just changed it for worst.
Why fix something that isnt broke?

[muted orbit]

It can but feels like for 2 or 3 seconds only 🤣

It actually doesnt work, i quit playing WT for now cause of that

[wild gull]

Random idea for new ability.

Possibly light or heavy.

Since everyone now has healing following Medium think it’s time for Light or heavy to get an ability that involves (green, red, orange, etc. ) canisters. More specifically they have the ability to spawn a balloon of 1 of these canisters.

If the player is holding a canister and uses this tech it would spawn a balloon of that type.

If not holding one it would spawn a random balloon of any type.

What you think 🤔
Is this something that would work in the finals

[wind lintel]

Real question is why anyone would use it

It's interesting but reshaper is a niche pick already and is usually used to break through defenses

And by balloon, do you mean one of the boxes in the sky? It could be pretty finnicky in enclosed spaces and buildings with floors like both CNS maps

[wild gull]

Yes boxes in the sky

[wind lintel]

I guess that'd be more useful than a single cannister
Spawning 15 glitch barrels above a building your in and have it just splash on the room would be weird, if it was a open area then it could potentially be very strong

[wild gull]

Idk I feel the ability to spawn a box of red canisters and pop it immediately would be kinda scary.

Reshaper should be reworked to duplicator. IMO

[wild gull]

Agreed. Definitely limited indoors and certain maps. Maybe they cause the balloon to burst immediately 🤷‍♂️

[sudden pewter]

Barrels burst immediately

https://tenor.com/view/cat-shoo-away-gif-13653609800890535042

[heavy tusk]

I think a good barrel gadget for Heavy would involve either storing one for later use or weaponizing it in some way (besides the obvious). The storage ability could be called the Data Scanner and lean into the "CNS is a group of nerds" motif with it basically being a Bag of Holding.

On the other hand, the Data Compressor could allow you to shrink or "zip" a barrel down to grenade size and have the throwing properties of such. On impact, it could go through a decompress animation and detonate the barrel at the end. This would give players time to react to the barrel popping. This one also plays into "CNS are nerds" with (legally distinct) Pokemon cosmetics.

Just some spur of the moment ideas, but I think there's potential in prop-based gadgets for the other builds.

[heavy tusk]

I mean nobody picks the Reshaper, but it's still a neat thing to have

[fringe osprey]

am I the only one who prefers the ARN-220 over the MP5?

[plush harbor]

no

[weak kernel]

you're the only one in history, we have to put you in a museum

[fringe osprey]

I always hear everyone saying the MP5 is better than it

[royal pier]

Medium spec that's kinda like Goo Gun: but you coat the ground in a sticky substance that slows enemies. Give it recharging ammo like the H+. Don't have it completely stop Charge/Dash, but do have it slow it some.

The slow in general shouldn't be like old stun gun, but enough to help Riot and Dual Blades vs fleeing enemies.

[royal pier]

Could be fun if the slow tar was ignited by fire.

Imagine painting a trail to and around the Cash Out Station.

[oblique crypt]

What if it was just a thin coating version of goo, would also prevent people from destroying/dematting walls as easily, and the slowing effect would only occur on players standing there while it's placed. This would also allow you to block doors and stuff

[neon barn]

i honestly feel like the RPG is great for destroying floors or parts of a building you want to get rid of
like if you are below a cashout machine and want to interrupt the cashout process that's happening

[sudden dove]

I would pay to have this skin for the Ceberus 🙇‍♂️

[pine dock]

do you think that the ks 23 needs another buff?

[muted halo]

100%

[rancid widget]

https://tenor.com/view/the-finals-ks-23-gif-1334643934214942383

[tulip knoll]

Akm needs a slight fire rate buff to complete with the meta

[royal pier]

Or, FAMAS and Pike need to come down a peg.

[bold yarrow]

How should I improve my ability to actually kill people as heavy?

[woven matrix]

yo

[polar cedar]

pike maybe, famas no (not biased at all)

ak has the highest dps when headshotting iirc, so I think all it needs is a bigger mag and slightly less horizontal recoil

[placid slate]

Fire rate is realistically the only way they can go for ttk changes

[drowsy orchid]

The MP5 should not have such a good time to kill on all classes if it is going to be this easy to use

[fallen swift]

Has anyone considered calling the mines Frisbees of doom?

[wind folio]

i call pyromines pancakes

[misty elbow]

guh okay so not coming here to complain but genuinely are there any counters to double barrel aside from "see them before they see you"?

[misty elbow]

depends on what you run, if youre using a gun though its pretty much entirely positioning and aim since yk, heavy has like no movement

[lapis dock]

Need
Pistol-Hand "skin" for V9s like this ; 👉
CL-40 Telekinetic Hand or Iron Man blaster skin.

Stickers applied on glove

[stoic garden]

quite the opposite

[woeful apex]

Is the thermal bore any good??

Just unlocked it and I love having anything like a weapon to quickly switch to

[weak kernel]

thermal bore isn't a weapon, it's a (pretty good) breaching tool. nullifier is closest to feeling like a swappable weapon but it just disables enemies for a sec. maybe the pyro grenade since it's an impact that can immediately do damage but I've never really loved using it

[shell sonnet]

Motion sensors helps with that a bit
Mines can block off exit points and limit their options
Not much tho

[weak kernel]

the double barrel puts everything into the idea that if they get on top of you before you can respond and don't miss, they can win.
a few things that can make their lives significantly harder:
-holding high ground, like a goo pillar. they need to be at point blank, so if you make it awkward for them to get into point blank it makes it harder for them to fight effectively
-area denial in general. they don't have the option to fight from a distance, so stuff likes frag and glitch mines on their approach- even turrets can be a pain since the option to deal with them from a distance isn't there.
-most close-quarters weapons on the other classes like the shak and cerberus can actually beat the SH on TTK with bodyshots if you want the ability to beat them outright
-playing tightly around your team. light needs to commit and get close to get someone, playing around your team can deny them a safe opportunity to get a pick and leave without being killed themselves.
and as usual the best answer to light as a whole is good positioning, awareness, and consistent aim

[soft vector]

Guys i think the ARN needs some more skins like an eclipse shade or smth, because the repeater and mini gun both already have unique and creative skins, but the ARN has next to no skins and no creative ones, idk I feel like it needs some attention

[tidal urchin]

the thing i dont understand with the mp5 is how it basically has better range ttk then the ars..

[placid slate]

it doesnt tho, all the ars have a better damage falloff

[stoic garden]

ttk because light has 100 less hp 😱

[stoic garden]

doing even one of these will make you win a good chunk of the time

although the weapons can vary

most do kill light before they have a chance to shoot a second time even at close range if you see them coming

[elder linden]

how has double barrel never been touched but sword got completly guted? i thought people hate one shot weopons but not enough people complaing about it? i don't get it

[elder linden]

than sword?

i get the embark loves nerfing random things part although i don't think it's true

[stoic garden]

yes you simply learn dash lunging and you could throw yourself at people with bad aim several times and win and even team wipe

double barrel does not have such a luxury

[elder linden]

yes and you should win against players with bad aim that's the point no?

[elder linden]

hm ok agree to disagree

[stoic garden]

you can be a bad player yourself with sword and win

it's a similar argument to cl40 requiring no aim despite being a suboptimal option

[elder linden]

you can win with every weapon even if your bad this is not a good argument imo

[stoic garden]

in what situation would being bad with double barrel allow you to win

[elder linden]

just because ur bad doesn't mean u can't hit one shot on a light.. which kills it

[stoic garden]

you have two shots, miss them and you're most likely dead if you're bad

[elder linden]

yeah if u miss both.. i think we are talking about diffrent layers of bad

[stoic garden]

i see more people complaining about db two shotting heavies tho

[elder linden]

and they should be.. they should get ytubers to say it that works more :D

[fallen karma]

Btw chat, I was off the finals for a very long time, can you like give me a quick guide on what the meta is on the classes?

(For weapons mainly plz)

[stoic garden]

light: arn or 93r, best spec if currently dash (cloak is dead), best loadout is currently gateway glitch nade and h+ infuser

medium: famas or pike, best spec being demat, best loadout is jump pad goo nade defib

heavy: shak50, m60 or minigun if you have a team around it, sa12 too, either winch or mesh depending on the weapon and your team, best gadgets include: c4, rpg, dome shield and lockbolt

[fallen karma]

Tysm but what about the healing sphere on heavy?

[stoic garden]

healing emitter was never that crazy, it got nerfed for no reason, now it's pretty mediocre, still better than a pyro grenade tho

if you dont wanna run the hard meta and have fun, i recommend it

[fallen karma]

me watching this knowing I run the pyro nade with medium

[stoic garden]

very useful if you're a solo heavy in particular, the regen will matter, pairing it with a barricade is best

[fallen karma]

Yeah it was actually clutch on some matches for me, and also when did it got nerfed?

[stoic garden]

it got nerfed around 2 weeks ago

[fallen karma]

On the blastoff patch?

[stoic garden]

first it was a bug fix the first week, which made it no longer heal through barricades, then they made it not recharge the gadget until the current ball breaks

similar to medium's turret, you can recall it with right click

[lapis dock]

It breach and cancel gaz at the same time with only 25 dmg if u step on it, perfect for gaz mine on cashout

[fallen karma]

Oh that was a though nerf ngl, but I KINDA understand the cooldown when the current ball is still active, spamming balls would not be good lmao

[stoic garden]

only one can be a alive at a time, and the heal between two balls does not stack

[fallen karma]

Ohhhhh ok

[stoic garden]

the most common tactic was to deploy one at the start of the match and drop it whenever, and use it as a shield against whoever shoots you

if it breaks, your gadget will already have recharged, allowing you to place another one

[woeful apex]

Can it finish off someone if needed?

[fallen karma]

Makes sense, if you endured enough, you could basically just ignore the cooldown

[stoic garden]

if it explodes on someone (extremely unlikely) it will deal like 40 burn damage over time, the range is minuscule tho

only use it if your weapon has a long ass reload and the stealer has a smidge of health left

with light that usually doesn't happen tho, and it's often better to reload or jump on them to quick melee

[fallen karma]

But still, thanks for the meta explanation Shak

[stoic garden]

no worries bro, have fun playing

[sudden pewter]

Spread the word of the Shak. More congregants to its altar.

[elder linden]

i was a fan of this but it did feel weird doing it

[stoic garden]

i tried emitter for a few games

if you have some sense of when and where to place it, it's not that different

the recall is actually useful in some scenarios too

[tulip knoll]

Anyone who didn’t even know gravity vortex was in the game 👇

[analog junco]

hey guys, any sniper loadout recommendations? im trying to learn it and currently using grapple, gateway, thermal bore, frag
Also any tip for anither weapon that goes well with grapple? for my reserve when i will do bad in WT so i can switch to something else

[dim tiger]

i'd swap thermal for vanish bombs, but that's just me 🤷‍♂️

[weak kernel]

grapple+sawed-off is the loadout of champions
as for sniper recommendations, instead of frag:
-sonar to track enemies/know where to make breach holes?
-nullifier for an escape tool/help you make box plays if you need to?
-goo to produce perches, make cover, etc?
-vanish bomb to be that little bit more annoying?
-glitch because it's glitch?

light's had lots of appealing unique gadgets for awhile

[oblique crypt]

Tracking dart

[analog junco]

thanks for the tips, gonna try then out tmrw

[compact halo]

What do you guys think about oneshot weapons or gadgets? It seems like they usually lead to someone, usually the victim, not having any fun, but I think the finals has balanced them pretty well.

[stoic garden]

i agree

balanced but not usually fun to fight

[analog junco]

to me it feels like im the only one that is unable to see the invisible players but when i use it it doesnt work much lol

[dim tiger]

I've found that any possible way to break line of sight drastically improves the effectiveness, but yeah it can feel inconsistent

[analog junco]

watched some video with grapple+double barel, gonna try it out but i suck with the db as much as i do with sniper lol

[weak kernel]

i think people inherently get tilted by one-shots in shooters even if they're weak, it's just a thing. I've played games where the one-shot capable weapons were unambiguously weak as hell next to the guns that weren't technically one shots and people still got tilted over it. It's just a weird perception thing where "you had no chance to fight back" even if you realistically had more chance to fight back by not allowing the conditions for the one-shot.

[indigo nexus]

Luckily this game gives you the ability to play with almost no fear of being one-shot if you wish.

[indigo nexus]

A lot of the time there is the added factor of the randomness of one-shot weapons. This isn’t hugely prevalent in the finals but in many games it is; that is to say, fights involving a one-shot weapon may be decided by a tiny snapshot of information, and even if the fight is more protracted there are still effectively much fewer rolls of the dice. This means the distribution of possible outcomes is sharper, which seems to be broadly perceived as more frustrating.

On both ends, mind you.

[weak kernel]

little bit like fighting game players hating grapplers because risk reward is so much more jacked than usual

[indigo nexus]

I wouldn’t know but it sounds like the same concept

Some interesting juxtaposition here is that the same concept is also, more than most, heavily present in cashout games. Yet the community really loves this game for that gamemode, it’s the poster child really.

I wonder if that could speak to the fact that THE FINALS is not exactly a game popular in the mainstream sense.

But I suppose it’s seen as a better thing there because the buildup is a lot slower, and your mind is very much focused on manipulating it in the hope of a large reward

[weak kernel]

I mean yeah no, I enjoy the gamemode for the volatility, I find it consistently exciting largely because of that.

[sudden pewter]

The unpredictability of QC is what gives it so much appeal. Otherwise it becomes formulaic which can dampen enjoyment

You’ll never predict the random Sledge Heavy making it his mission to level every single building in the lobby.

[ashen hawk]

mgl 32 needs more love-- buff if it already hasnt had one.

its such a beautiful and fun weapon to use. like genuine 10K satisfaction points after you get an elim by bouncing ur nades off the walls and roofs to hit an enemy outside ur range and view
takes ALOT of skill tho, and imo it isnt that worth it considering the dmg and stuff, really underused besides powershift ig

[sudden pewter]

The Artillery Strike Heavy on PowerShift:

[red dune]

Spear and lockbolt is

[deep turtle]

Man, the more I think about it the more I want a P90 added

[woeful apex]

Guys ,I am just new to the game but I am in love with the heavy class

The lock bolt with the rpg and the pyro mine or grenade and a mini gun/flamethrower is coated for me , especially on power shift ,it literally destroys teams

[crimson nimbus]

@stray night
I don’t know where all these idiots keep coming from. Devs literally said in the AMA that they know melee needs buffs and that they’re working on changes, yet people keep saying the dumbest things. The game keeps getting worse because the devs listen to these kinds of takes and patch based on them.

I’ve said over and over that reverting melee is fine as long as other weapons also get buffed to maintain balance. But these idiots arguing against me must be illiterate or something. Calling melee a “bad case” of powercreep is basically admitting it needs buffs. They’re proving my point while thinking they’re refuting it. That’s just stupid.

Back in Seasons 1 and 2, people were having fun, and the player count was at its highest. The game was doing fine back then. But people left the game because cheaters weren’t dealt with in time and were left unchecked. It wasn’t because of the balance issue (excluding Nuke). The devs made the stupid choice to listen to nerf whiners, and that’s what ruined the game more and more. They could’ve just buffed other weapons instead. I don’t know when they’ll finally understand that nerfs are what make the game less fun.

If the devs buff other weapons instead of nerfing, it avoids making players who use the originally targeted weapon feel unfairly punished.
And players using everything else will enjoy having more viable and competitive options. Everyone wins.

[stray night]

@crimson nimbus I agree, but it seems that embarks simply wants the ttk to be lower.

I did prefer the fast ttks and had been calling for buffs since S3 but it seems that’s not the direction they want to take with the game.

If they buff all the weapons back to S2 levels then sure reverting melee would be fine but it seems like embarks team is quite against that.
Personally I preferred the faster ttk bc it gave the game higher 1v3 potentiel and higher outplay potentiel. I get that people are frustrated and do hope embark changes things but realistically if people have been asking for a change in philosophy for 6 seasons and they aren’t doing it I doubt it’s bc people haven’t copied pasta enough messages.

[crimson nimbus]

I'm sorry for being too harsh, but I'm not doing this because I enjoy it.
I just can't stand by and watch a game I love fall apart.
There isn't much I can do, but I feel like I have to at least try something.

[warm cedar]

MORE BOW SKINS PLS

[lavish hamlet]

i just designed one abt 20min ago hopefully devs see it

[plucky spade]

It seems that they choose to embrace teamwork over anything else, ttk falls real fast when 2 people focus somebody

[polar cedar]

what the other guy said, but double barrel too - it's completely busted rn
fcar, xp-54, m11 and healing emitter are really good too

[ashen hawk]

Just realized that player count dropped massively at S3, when Embark started nerf-barraging weapons.

In S1 and S2, player count was peak, guns were peak. There were a few things that made it go low:

• Server issues
• Cheaters
• Nerfing weapons too much

"FCAR wAs ToO STroNg iT nEEd nErF". but nerfs werent the solution. They couldve buffed the fck out of other weapons instead of nerfing the weapon, if heavy was too strong, they couldve buff light instead.
Instead, they chose to nerf the weapons and make them weaker, so ppl started getting tired of them.

Ffs embark stop nerfing weapons like this/buff others instead, fix your servers, fix cheater problems

[indigo nexus]

The biggest nerfs were S1-S2… the player count dropped continuously following the launch of the game, and the main controversy at the time of S3 was the removal of cashout ranked.

[amber hedge]

What is the name of the giant dome shield that takes like 3 clips to kill?

[muted condor]

The mild CNS annoyance

[ashen hawk]

I'm pretty sure because of the ppl whining abt FCAR, Lewis, and heavies in general in S1 caused them to nerf everything to shit in between S2 and S3, so yeah.

[ashen hawk]

Oh, you mean Sheldon Shelldome?

[placid slate]

people had issue with the weapon killing them too fast, not with other weapons not killing as fats as it

powercreep generally doesnt solve shit either, it just makes a new top dog

[sly rain]

When do you’ll think we’ll get new weapons

[placid slate]

strictly buffing doesnt make issues go away

[placid slate]

next season probably

[sly rain]

That’s what I thought in last season but nope

[placid slate]

i mean this is the first season without new weapons man, almost guarenteed to get new ones next time

[sly rain]

Yeah

[indigo nexus]

That seems counterintuitive. That should be evidence that it's more likely to be the next season?

[sly rain]

Well yes but if every season had a new weapon why stop?

[placid slate]

because we havent had an all gadget season yet

[sly rain]

Makes sense hopefully we get a big update

[sudden pewter]

In the AMA Oscar talked about making older weapons feel fresh. Might be focusing on making what we have higher quality opposed to adding new stuff every season

[indigo nexus]

The idea is very much to avoid bloating the game

more content is not inherently a good thing of course, and the more content you add the less new content matters

at some point the most sensible way forward is to focus on improving pre-existing content, as it becomes the more efficient way to improve the experience

[placid slate]

dont care, gimme more specs

[indigo nexus]

specs are more efficient as new content due to their low number

but also the most critical to be done very well

personally I've been unable to really think of good ideas for specs.

[muted condor]

If they wanted to do something with specs without adding a bunch more they could make variants

[tidal urchin]

flamethrower is getting kinda out of hand..

[lavish swallow]

Im starting to believe here, i really hope the next patch note buffs sword back into being fun again

if they for some reason don't do it or give it like an irrelevant buff that barely changes anything... i probably am going to give up tho

[indigo nexus]

That sounds like a much worse idea...

[tulip knoll]

Pike needs a damage buff

[sudden pewter]

X but with Y stuff should be kept minimal. Ideally everything would be unique

Variants are lame unless they’re cosmetics 🥴

In which case please give me a Winch skin that’s an Anchor or Harpoon so I can fish for my white whale (goth mediums)

[restive plover]

Smash 4 custom moves but Finals.

Who gets the Kong Cyclone?

[sudden pewter]

Heavy

Lights get the Kirby flight tech (inflating like a balloon)

[night frigate]

hi

[warm cedar]

Where can i see it ?

[paper plaza]

Double barrel is such a cop-out weapon bro

I get its on the class with the least health but damn does it have every get out of jail free card. Ive played DB and it is waaay to easy to use to be allowed to be so powerful

[grand turtle]

The other weapons that contended with it at close range got nerfed to the dirt.

Said guns need to be brought back to being actually good up close or DB needs to join the nerf train
Preferably the former.

[sudden pewter]

Lights once again ruining the game. A tale as old as time

[paper plaza]

M26 Matter is fire but damn is it rare to see unless im playing it

[sudden pewter]

Definitely been a while since I’ve seen one

[plush harbor]

only if you have that mindset

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-shoo-away-gif-13653609800890535042

[paper plaza]

Says the light main

[lavish hamlet]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/a5IUxj8AtU

hoping embark sees it too i think it wld be rly sick in game

[willow spear]

yap

[void ice]

If I’m doing poorly on light I just swap to db to make things easier lmao

[digital ravine]

how far can the healing emitter reach?

[drowsy orchid]

Easy guns should have worse times to kill than hard guns. I don’t know why this game doesn’t follow that basic design

[sudden pewter]

Afaik 3m?

[digital ravine]

well i have a clip of it reaching 35m from a couple hours ago

[sudden pewter]

sweating profusely
That’s a visual bug!

https://tenor.com/view/shivering-dog-shiver-me-timbers-shiver-me-timbers-dog-gif-23060744

[digital ravine]

not if it healed me from that far away and in this case it did

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-shoo-away-gif-13653609800890535042

Lies! You spread dishonesty amongst the court. Your ilk aren’t welcome here, BEGONE

[digital ravine]

ts funny as at 4 am

[sudden pewter]

Everyone knows the Healing Emitter is perfectly balanced, as all Spheres should be. It has been so for generations.

To slander such an armament is a grave mark upon your character. We duel at dawn.

[royal pier]

So yeah, if you just tap reload and instantly do a winch/QM, you basically get the old animation cancel.

[rancid widget]

Bro wants it gone 🥲😭

[royal pier]

Kinda.

But I also want the current jank gone as well.

You can take another shot with the KS-23, but using winch/QM makes you repeat the animation again, stupid. Amateurish, even.

[rough carbon]

this honestly should be a sledge skin

[clever cloud]

Anyone play with the Gamesir G7 SE

[snow scaffold]

Need more dual pistols

[deep karma]

I don't think it's related to the reload. In that first clip for example you're giving the KS enough time to pump before you go for the winch, so it doesn't need to do a pump after the winch ends.

It only needs to pump if you cut it off with the winch.

[royal pier]

You can do it almost instantly I just didn't realize it initially.

[deep karma]

Oh got it.

Yeah looks like you can winch a tiny bit earlier without having to pump afterwards, if the previous pump has a reload right towards the tail end of it.

Neat tech.

[sudden pewter]

Yeah this ain't it, the melee rework can't come soon enough

Been running into Dagger a bit in TDM and it's really frustrating to die to something that (from my perspective) wasn't my fault.

[winter jay]

I’m sorry to tell you daggers probably getting buffed

[sudden pewter]

Kept my eyes on the light the entire time, no access to my back, but it's a backstab!

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-walk-away-weirdo-touch-gif-26494423

The Backstab Damage is already insanely high, I guess the standard swing could be buffed but it's already pretty decent(imo)

[winter jay]

Maybe backstab angle changes or faster charge or something

[sudden pewter]

If the backstab angle is going to be buffed at all they NEED to make it fair to the victim

Getting stabbed while I'm looking directly at a stinky light is very frustrating because it's (from what we can see) an undeserved kill where we didn't do anything incorrect

[winter jay]

That’s a server problem not a a dagger one

[sudden pewter]

Servers have 100% been funky since the launch of S7

[winter jay]

Who knows maybe this new destruction system will launch with flawless and improved servers

[sudden pewter]

The new destruction system is already in dawg

[winter jay]

Oh is it? I guess I haven’t dropped a crane on anything yet to notice

[sudden pewter]

It was what, two patches ago now?

[winter jay]

I haven’t really noticed a difference

[sudden pewter]

And the servers are still STINKY!!!

Raaaagh I'm gunna gamer rage I hate Dagger Lights!!!

[winter jay]

I’m getting random rubber bands and stuff I’ve never had before this season idk what they did to make it this bad

[sudden pewter]

I'm chimping out oooh oooh aaah aaah

https://tenor.com/view/chimp-chipmanzee-monkey-defcon-chimpcon-gif-2659426139240457583

[winter jay]

https://tenor.com/view/egzblo-seksplo-expl0sive-expl0sivekiller-gif-21243850

[sudden pewter]

Hopefully when server stability improves dagger isn't as much of an issue as it is now. Looking forward to the melee rework Oscar mentioned in the AMA. Very keen on seeing what Embarks divine vision for each weapon is!

Also I hope Light is removed from the game because I hate them.

[deep karma]

A melee weapon based around hitting a particular point on an opponent needs to be based on the attacker's POV, not the victims.

It's like this in every game with backstabs, it's like this for sniper's hitting headshots, for shooting opponents around a corner even though they're behind a wall, etc.

I don't disagree it's not fun for the defender, but this is a fundamental component of how netcode works for melee weapons in every FPS game ever, I really don't think that's open for change unless they remove the backstab mechanic...

[sudden pewter]

Backstab mechanic in TF2 is based on the bounding box cut perfectly in half(regardless of model orientation) and tied to camera afaik. I can't think of many other games with backstab mechanics but being killed by a sniper or getting killed while behind a wall due to latency are nothing burgers and I don't see why you brought them up

[deep karma]

Sorry just watching the edits - are you walking back client side prediction for backstab angles in TF2 or is that something I should look for

[sudden pewter]

Just giving extra details on how it works, obviously it isn't a silver bullet for how finals deals with dagger serverside but there's clearly improvements that need to be made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh5Fg5d_uBU
(this explains how it functions in-depth if you're curious)

Mind facestabs still happen(I've played enough tf2 to understand no system is foolproof) but it's a rarity, whereas seemingly it's commonplace with the dagger

[deep karma]

TF2 is pretty egregious with it's face stabs and such, but to my knowledge that would still be based on the client side perspective just like everything else in TF2. For example, backstab hackers abusing client side prediction to stab where you were 1 second ago.

There are other client favored backstab mechanics like for example Darksouls (obviously a notoriously tragic implementation for online combat so I bring it up with a grain of salt).

I bring up sniper headshots and dying behind cover as a general blanket to cover "favor the client" style combat and how it applies to both hitscan ranged weapons in addition to melee weapons working off of the same system - why flame thrower and sledge feel shitty when they hit far beyond what you'd expect for their visual range.

It's extremely common place with dagger I agree, and it's because they gave the backstab class significantly faster movement speed in general, on top of a dash. If Spy had a dash, I think you'd see the exact same thing in TF2. I think they've personally designed themselves into a box with that - giving a class an instant kill based on their perspective on top of incredible movement speed to reach the kill angle was a dubious call. Melee in FPS games is always pretty janky enough without these kind of mechanics.

[sudden pewter]

A thought occurred to me, the backstabs in TF2 are instant, you die the moment the spy hits LMB
But the dagger has to finish it's animation(?), I've looked at games where I'm facing dagger, see a light with the backstab animation(after they hit me) and die after that(to my frustration)
I'm positive latency plays a part in it, and I'm not fluent in server babble to talk about it's finer points scholarly but I reckon part of the frustration with Dagger on the victims end is not really being dead even though according to the server you are? Kind of a teleports behind you scenario

On the other hand, that weird delayed death could also be due to server latency

[deep karma]

A thought occurred to me, the backstabs in TF2 are instant, you die the moment the spy hits LMB
But the dagger has to finish it's animation(?)

Hmm I believe the time it takes for a Light to release RMB and perform the stab is roughly comparable to the time it would take for Spy to complete a backstab by pressing LMB, using Spy's new backstab rules and animations beyond like classic. (The one where the knife is lifted above and drops down, vs the quick stab)

Like in your video here, when he dashes behind and you track him, he's still holding the arm back and not delivering the RMB attack yet:

The tricky part is that laggier the dagger player is, the easier they can do what they did in that clip as well. It gives them more time to stab you in the back before you turning around actually reaches their client.

But fwiw I agree: Backstab mechanics favoring the client are total bullshit and not a great idea imo in FPS games, but I don't think there's a solution to that outside of nuclear options like preventing them from dashing which preparing a stab.

So I agree it's silly and that clip isn't gunna feel good and all that, I only push back on them being able to make good fixes to this system because I do think it's working correctly.

(Overwatch notably makes a few changes to deal with really laggy players that make them have a worse experience without impacting others, which I love.)

[sudden pewter]

I don't think the Finals makes it easy for players to intentionally interp their connections (TF2 literally just needs a config for it which id ridiculous) and I hate the idea of punishing players for having poor connections but if someone is having a poor connection I'd definitely prefer they weren't using the OHK weapon

I'd hate for the dagger to lose it's identity, so I'd prefer Embark reevaluate how they handle the dagger serverside or upgrade their servers to the point that I can see whats actually happening so every death to it feels earned

Less "how was that a backstab" and more "oh I got backstabbed"
But tbh I have no idea how they'd accomplish that. IMO the dagger is just poorly designed for a game as hectic as this

[deep karma]

Well Spy backstab hacking goes far beyond interp config changes, they are looking at previous server positions and using that history trail to send a valid backstab from the past based on where you've been for example. Like, stabbing a place you were standing 1 second ago, to say you were stabbed in the back at that point in time, and the server honors it. With overlays and everything:

upgrade their servers to the point that I can see whats actually happening
Well that's specifically what I'm talking about.

Super alien servers 10 years from now will still suffer from these flaws based on the opponent's ping, and your own. It just comes down to how long it takes for you spinning around to face the backstabber takes to actually reach the backstabber - servers can't fix that.

If you turn around 1 second early before a Light dashes behind you to deliver a backstab, you will block it because on their screen you turn around early to prevent it.

[sudden pewter]

I mean yeah, hacks exist but I don't feel a weapon should be balanced around such things

[deep karma]

Agreed. In the case of dagger it's whole identity I feel right now is exploiting client side prediction via backstabs to OHKO with a movement mechanic - not great!

[sudden pewter]

Agreed

[deep karma]

Well, I don't mind at least, because once you know how it works it's just an interesting playstyle / mechanic to adapt around even if it's weird. :P

[sudden pewter]

Just wish it felt as fun to fight as it does to use

[exotic grove]

or reduce the dash distance

[deep karma]

Yeah I feel it will never ever feel fun to get hit with a client side prediction trick stab 💦

If you lean into understanding how the latency works though, you can start to play around it and then I think that is actually kinda fun and neat. Pre-turning based on estimated latency to block a trick stab and then killing a light for it kinda rules.

Pre-turning based on estimated latency to block a trick stab and then killing a light for it kinda rules.
I acknowledge I am alone here.

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-shoo-away-gif-13653609800890535042

Gunna try pre-turning on the next dagger light I see and if I die anyway you'll be sent to the content mines

(They've been dry for months)

[deep karma]

Yeah if you see this situation and you know the dagger player is not a terrible player, you can 180 on this frame and block the trick stab, and then kill them.

I do it lots.

But then the 50/50 is if they adapt and make you all-in that decision, and the next fight they just stab your front. Those mind games rule...

[sudden pewter]

I'm a staunch supporter of mind games

But the fact I need to play around server performance isn't ideal

[exotic grove]

mind you it is a melee weapon and the time to kill in this game isnt horrible, so just kill them with your GUN

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1182329984723976283/1376284856413192354/attachment-2.gif

[deep karma]

It is not based around the performance of the server at all. The server can be a potato or an alien device and this problem still exists just based on basic client side prediction rules. You can blame embark for the design decision, but you can't blame them for the implementation of the mechanic imo - they did it correctly.

[sudden pewter]

Fair

Server Performance is just a cleaner name to blame than "Poor design in regards to a weapons function and how players observe eachother in real time within a 3D environment"